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Big Boy Skis - Page 2

post #31 of 50

I had almost the same hooky and bad performance issue with them. It is the tune guaranteed. The base bevel was inconsistent on my skis and the bottom was not flat. Once properly tuned, they ski like a dream. It may take a machine to get them properly tuned the first  time. I called  the owner of Ski Logik and he recommended 1 deg base bevel and 2 deg  side bevel. Once I did that, they completely changed their behaiver. They are a ski for upper intermediate to expert skiers, so agreed they are not for everyone. As Yo said, they respond to your input very well, which is why I like them so much, the ski does the work, not me.

 

Yo Mamma,

 

Could you expand on what the Bonefides ski like compared to the Chariots? From what I have read they seem to be in the same ski class and the Bones have interested me but I haven't skied them.

post #32 of 50

Your assessment is well put , you cannot relax on the chariots to much you have to be on balance all the time,or your down and thats why i could not trust them, there has to be some room for error in balance when on really steep stuff and in variable snow, to ski the whole mountain you have to trust a ski ,my mantras never hooked me into the hill ,I am starting to find that a lot of side cut with camber can be hooky ,if your just running groomers at speed the ski will turn and increase speed out of the turn and perhaps thats what the real purpose of this chariot is but as a all mountain ski in soft snow and powder in the rocky mtn there are better products,I also ski the bones and just this morning i put  four hrs on them ,we got 9 cm last night, I am trying to retire my old mantras and use the bones as my daily ski .I also had a two runs this morning on the new K2 petittor its a big ski not soft like the obsethed and i was suprised at how well it carved and it seemed stable but to early to really form an opinion

post #33 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by bttocs View Post

 

Yo Mamma,

 

Could you expand on what the Bonefides ski like compared to the Chariots? From what I have read they seem to be in the same ski class and the Bones have interested me but I haven't skied them.

Bones vs Chariots

 

Bones = Centered stance, fwd stance, in the back seat, carve, slide, skid, slarve, moguls, crud, pow, ice, high speed, low speed, groomers, fluff, launches, tights spots............ they do it all well............ I've never skied a more versatile ski that makes Everything on the mountain absolutely FUN............ you input the data, the ski comes back and asks for more........

 

Chariots = a super talented, spoiled brat of a ski that makes you watch your P's and Q's but w/ just the right input, gives you moments of Brilliance............. if you're light on your feet this ski will make you an S turn superstar............ one of my favorite trails on my local mtn is not on the trail map but is a single track mtn bike trail in the off season.........during winter this trail has drawn my blood on occasion as it has many branches and "DUCK NOW" spots and is a little wider than the width of 2 skis together and has to be skied w/ legs glued together and you stay in the single track or crash off into the woods (it's lined w/ downed trees and brush so even in deep snow it's one track wide w/ little room for variation) the Chariots simply eat this up............they love working together and whipping out tight S turns like candy.......... and I'm one generally w/ a distaste for keeping his skis together that tightly................ but these skis are a lot of fun when you get past their need for constant input and adjustments............once you get the formula down they rip.......

 

........ the Bones just rip right out of the pkg no matter what you input into them............. even w/ no input they just go down the hill until you end up at Mach speed and they laugh at you saying " Is that all you got????" ............ I'm 200 lbs and on the 180's

post #34 of 50
Keep your Mantras and get something around 115 underfoot. A two ski quiver is better than a one ski quiver, even with the Mantra on the lower half.

When the Mantras get old in the tooth, pick something up in the 85-95 range as your second ski. Something in the 95-105 range is more of a one ski quiver, providing it has some REAL rocker (not marketing rocker like the E98 or new Mantra). If it doesn't have real rocker, skip the ski, as it will NOT br a good ski for a one ski quiver.

DO NOT get the E98. It really isn't much different than your Mantra, which I assume your major complaint is deeper snow days. And, since that is likely your major complaint, then a two ski quiver becomes obvious and something around 115 underfoot is the natural answer.

What people really need to know, before giving you a proper answer is... What do you NOT like about the skis you've owned or tried.
post #35 of 50

You may like the Volkl Katanas for deeper days, they ski similiar to the mantras, just wider at 113

post #36 of 50

Thx, Yo.  Sounds like I should demo the Bones some time.

post #37 of 50

I have a lot of skis in to choose from at home a little taste of some of my stuff powder skis  :bent chetler /k2 obsethed /my backcountrry stuff  / dynafit stoke/   A old pair or rossignal axion about 20 years old 115 under foot my first real good powder ski the black diamond amperage also volkl explosives ,for all mountain bones ,mantra  salomon pocket rocket i have two pairs one of my favorite skis a old pair of salomon 1080 ,head monster 78 , monster im 88 and off coarse the salomon x scream and more , Skis have never been an issue to find, the right ski has. Everyone skis in different locations ,conditions and terrain what one person thinks is a good ski for them ,my not be for another I find that skis have characteristics that are similar ,or that ski is like that ski in size and dimension ,but for some reason we look for the one ski that suits our skiing style ,As your age increases so do you needs your skiing is not progressing anymore ,if anything its going south

so your needs change, we can still ski with the 20 year old ,do to the fact that are skiing skills are vast but to put up with something that turns like a sherman tank and rides like a old skate board with square wheels no thanks . Thts whyi ski as many skis as i can in the search for the one that will take me all over the mountain and do it all ,thata why i liked the mantr and now as i ski the bonifide i am thinking this is the next ski ,its fast ,stable turns well and looks like it can stand up to a lot of use,Some skis are only good for one season 75 days on a pair of jj there done 86 days on 2009 k2 hellbent nothing left of them. I ski alot at revelstoke
 

post #38 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by bttocs View Post

I had almost the same hooky and bad performance issue with them. It is the tune guaranteed. The base bevel was inconsistent on my skis and the bottom was not flat. Once properly tuned, they ski like a dream. It may take a machine to get them properly tuned the first  time. I called  the owner of Ski Logik and he recommended 1 deg base bevel and 2 deg  side bevel. Once I did that, they completely changed their behaiver. They are a ski for upper intermediate to expert skiers, so agreed they are not for everyone. As Yo said, they respond to your input very well, which is why I like them so much, the ski does the work, not me.

 

Yo Mamma,

 

Could you expand on what the Bonefides ski like compared to the Chariots? From what I have read they seem to be in the same ski class and the Bones have interested me but I haven't skied them.

 

1 degree base and 2 degree side bevel....  What a revelation!  Who would have ever though of doing that?

post #39 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmourati View Post

Short answer: a new daily driver for Tahoe.  

 

Me: 6'2" 280 lbs, ski about 30 days a year.  Currently skiing Mantra 184 (07) in all conditions.  Level 7 skier, looking to improve.  Planning to take 10 lessons this season.

 

Not having seen you ski, this maybe the stumbling block. 

 

Most of your list falls under one of two things: big burly skis in the longest length made or funshape. Neither of these are going to help you improve your technique across the board. Depending on your strengths/weaknesses as a skier, you may have trouble learning some skills on these skis. 

 

IMO the bone or enforcer is the best selection from what you listed. But you would probably be wise to go with a more narrow mid 80s-mid 90s "all mountain" ski and then buy a big boy pair of boards when you level up. 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by tromano - 12/8/12 at 8:10pm
post #40 of 50
Something else to consider is that 10 haphazard lessons might not do you a lot of good. You need to develop a specific plan about what you want to accomplish in these lessons. And make sure you convey that when you sign up for a lesson. And tell them you want a Level 3 instructor.
post #41 of 50
I agree with mtcyclist and tromano.
post #42 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by bttocs View Post

Thx, Yo.  Sounds like I should demo the Bnes some time.


If you can find them available mos def demo............ try calling multiple shops a few days before you get to the mtn.............. in some places, this is a hard ski to find for demo.........once you find them ........... release any expectations and just let the ski find it's path and "tune in" to your style.............. start out on easy groomers then ramp it up and watch the magic start happening as the ski starts to  intuit your movements.............. whatever you do ............ do not go long on this ski unless you're headed to long powder filled wide open bowls or somewhere similar! :)...............it's similar to the Mantra in that it skis better short IMHO........ 

post #43 of 50
Thread Starter 

These two points explain what I've been thinking but unable to put into words.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Lindahl View Post

Keep your Mantras and get something around 115 underfoot. A two ski quiver is better than a one ski quiver, even with the Mantra on the lower half.
When the Mantras get old in the tooth, pick something up in the 85-95 range as your second ski. Something in the 95-105 range is more of a one ski quiver, providing it has some REAL rocker (not marketing rocker like the E98 or new Mantra). If it doesn't have real rocker, skip the ski, as it will NOT br a good ski for a one ski quiver.
DO NOT get the E98. It really isn't much different than your Mantra, which I assume your major complaint is deeper snow days. And, since that is likely your major complaint, then a two ski quiver becomes obvious and something around 115 underfoot is the natural answer.
What people really need to know, before giving you a proper answer is... What do you NOT like about the skis you've owned or tried.

 

Biggest (only?) complaint about the Mantra: over-the-handlebars in 2+ feet of snow, many times per day, about 10 days per season.  That and they are beat.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post

 

Not having seen you ski, this maybe the stumbling block. 

 

Most of your list falls under one of two things: big burly skis in the longest length made or funshape. Neither of these are going to help you improve your technique across the board. Depending on your strengths/weaknesses as a skier, you may have trouble learning some skills on these skis. 

 

IMO the bone or enforcer is the best selection from what you listed. But you would probably be wise to go with a more narrow mid 80s-mid 90s "all mountain" ski and then buy a big boy pair of boards when you level up. 

 

 

 

 

I see this point about improving skills and gear selection.  This was why I started the thread in the training forum first.

 

An instructor and some time on a frontside ski (or at least an all mountain that reinforces solid technical turns) sounds like a solid approach.

 

I list Bonafides, Enforcer, knowing that like my Mantras, they might not provide enough float for me in the very deepest conditions.  My list tends towards the "dark side" of burlier fatter skis because I'm a burlier fatter guy. My size makes a one ski quiver even more difficult to achieve.  

 

I demoed the 2013 Cochise 185 yesterday at Northstar.  I liked the ski.  It felt versatile or ambiguous one could say.  Turn shapes were all over the map.  I've never done 4 360s in a row before.  It was definitely happier even in 0.5" to 1" of loose snow versus hardpack.  It crushed any crud I was able to find and had a fierce if unfocused edge.


Edited by dmourati - 12/9/12 at 9:43am
post #44 of 50

Rather than "An Instructor" I would say "The Right Instructor......"  research before picking one.............. also buy a ski training book like Mark Elling's book The All Mountain Skier............ copy down the drills and go to a wide blue groomer and practice, practice, practice.....................

 

Progressing from the Mantras to the Bones is a natural one........... the ski feels very familiar right out of the box............ I also have the Cochise and feel that it was a natural progression from my Goats (Volkl Gotamas)............... some say the Cochise has a damp-ish feeling............... while I found that to be true.............. as you ramp up the speed, it tends to wake the ski up also the ski tends to like a bit of exaggerated movement in your style............. dance and bounce on them and they wake up! :)

 

............also a useful description could include what you feel are the overall characteristics of a particular ski from your perspective ....... for example the Mantras are known to have a stiff tail........... some of us like that .......some of us do not............. I HATED it on the 184 Mantra............... absolutely LOVE it on the 177 Mantra............... so including what you do like and do not like are both critical components to a description that attempts to give us a full picture of the message you are attempting to convey................

post #45 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post

 

Not having seen you ski, this maybe the stumbling block. 

 

Most of your list falls under one of two things: big burly skis in the longest length made or funshape. Neither of these are going to help you improve your technique across the board. Depending on your strengths/weaknesses as a skier, you may have trouble learning some skills on these skis. 

 

IMO the bone or enforcer is the best selection from what you listed. But you would probably be wise to go with a more narrow mid 80s-mid 90s "all mountain" ski and then buy a big boy pair of boards when you level up. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post

Something else to consider is that 10 haphazard lessons might not do you a lot of good. You need to develop a specific plan about what you want to accomplish in these lessons. And make sure you convey that when you sign up for a lesson. And tell them you want a Level 3 instructor.

 

The OP is a really big guy and will need some of that "burl" and length to support him.  I could see a person of his size just folding a smaller ski up.  Funshape skis are....  Well....  Fun and easy to ski in deep or manky conditions.  I don't see anything wrong with wanting to check them out.  It could be after a demo he finds he doesn't like them.  I would never tell someone with no experience on that type of ski to just go out and spend a bunch of money on any particular ski.  Something in the 80-90mm range will be easier to move from edge to edge, but I think this person will still want a ski with some beef and some length to it even in a narrower width.  I would guess that at his size his hips are also wider than most.  This should make it easier for him to edge a wider ski than a person of average size.  I know a few high level skiers who are petite women and they can't ski with widths over 100mm because there isn't room for that width in their natural stance.

 

It sounds to me like the OP has already put a lot of time and thought into advancing as a skier.  He is self described level 7 who skis bumps, trees, and some park.  Sounds more like an 8 to me.  In any case it takes some work and dedication to become a level 7 skier.  I have been teaching primarily levels 7, 8, and 9 for the last four full time seasons.  My observation has been that skiers at those levels show up with a pretty decent skill set and often progress the fastest with a light technical focus to tune some things up and then a heavier tactical focus to learn to use the skills they already have in some new ways.  A lot of times getting more from what they have helps with moving forward with the technical focus because it makes it clear why their technique is falling a bit short and how they need to change.  A lot of people get to be higher level skiers and never learn to really "see" the terrain they are skiing or think like big mountain skiers.

 

I would hope that the OP doesn't wind up getting 10 haphazard lessons.  I know that in my SS when you show up for upper level group lessons you are going to get a very good instructor.  There are enough people in a staff of over 400 people who want those spots that not just anybody gets to teach in that product.  The same thing applies on the private lesson side.  It's not good business to charge big bucks for a lesson and send out an instructor who can't do the job.  At levels 7-9 there are fewer lessons and only the best will be assigned to them.  It's been my experience that during my trainings I get pretty consistent feedback from multiple trainers both within my own SS and from DECLs who might come from UT to work a PSIA event.  While there might be a slightly different focus from individuals, the message has remained largely the same.  I have logged over 100 training hours a season for the last 3 seasons and have already put in 40 training hours this season.  I teach in all three disciplines and I work with a lot of different trainers.  IME at the higher levels we are pretty much on the same page.  Any instructor worth his salt will ask their student what they are looking for in a lesson and will either provide that or be able to explain why the students expectations are out of line with reality then put them on the path towards their goals.

 

There is a lot to be said for finding the "right" instructor who can really make it click for you.  Sometimes that means working with several different people until you find the right one or getting a solid recomendation from someone you trust.  The best way to ensure a continuem through a series of lessons is to work with the one "right" person at the same resort through the entire season.  It sounds like the OP is planning on traveling and spreading it out a bit.  This is also a good strategy because I like getting info from more than one source.  I hope that my industry is solid enough that this doesn't lead to a series of 10 haphazard lessons.

post #46 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Lindahl View Post

Keep your Mantras and get something around 115 underfoot. A two ski quiver is better than a one ski quiver, even with the Mantra on the lower half.
When the Mantras get old in the tooth, pick something up in the 85-95 range as your second ski. Something in the 95-105 range is more of a one ski quiver, providing it has some REAL rocker (not marketing rocker like the E98 or new Mantra). If it doesn't have real rocker, skip the ski, as it will NOT br a good ski for a one ski quiver.
DO NOT get the E98. It really isn't much different than your Mantra, which I assume your major complaint is deeper snow days. And, since that is likely your major complaint, then a two ski quiver becomes obvious and something around 115 underfoot is the natural answer.
What people really need to know, before giving you a proper answer is... What do you NOT like about the skis you've owned or tried.

 

His Mantras are worn out.  

 

It seems like you have some problem with the E98.  Have you actually skied it?  I really like mine and while it is not the best powder ski out there it does the job OK.  I don't know why you would recommend a ski with full rocker as a one ski quiver.  Tail rocker is going away because early rise like in the E98 is better in most conditions.  In fact rocker and excessive early rise make it more difficult to develop tip pressure early in the turn and can lead to developing bad habits for someone who, like the OP, is trying to improve his technique.  

 

A subtle early rise like on the E98 helps with turn initiation and helps prevent the tips from diving in 3D snow.  IMO one of the reasons why people go over the handlebars has more to do with how they shape their turns in powder than with a problem with the equipment.  If a skier over turns and slows way down on every turn, they will tend to either sit back or go over the handlebars in powder and other 3D snow conditions.  You could get a heavily rockered ski and pivot around or you could learn to ski better.  You could even do both, but the rockered ski is less versatile than other designs even if it is easier to ski in some challenging conditions. 

post #47 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

 the rockered ski is less versatile than other designs even if it is easier to ski in some challenging conditions. 

 

+1

post #48 of 50

With his Mantras being worn out, I think something like the Cochise is an excellent choice for a one-ski quiver.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

 

His Mantras are worn out.  

 

It seems like you have some problem with the E98.  Have you actually skied it?  I really like mine and while it is not the best powder ski out there it does the job OK.  I don't know why you would recommend a ski with full rocker as a one ski quiver.  Tail rocker is going away because early rise like in the E98 is better in most conditions.  In fact rocker and excessive early rise make it more difficult to develop tip pressure early in the turn and can lead to developing bad habits for someone who, like the OP, is trying to improve his technique.  

 

A subtle early rise like on the E98 helps with turn initiation and helps prevent the tips from diving in 3D snow.  IMO one of the reasons why people go over the handlebars has more to do with how they shape their turns in powder than with a problem with the equipment.  If a skier over turns and slows way down on every turn, they will tend to either sit back or go over the handlebars in powder and other 3D snow conditions.  You could get a heavily rockered ski and pivot around or you could learn to ski better.  You could even do both, but the rockered ski is less versatile than other designs even if it is easier to ski in some challenging conditions. 

 

I'm not talking about full rocker (or tail rocker) - I agree with you about it's lack of versatility. When I say REAL rocker, I'm talking about the SHAPE of the rocker, as in, a noticable hull-shape, where the tip encourages planing on soft snow - a tip profile similar to the DPS112, for example, but with less of it (and more running length).

 

I'm surprised you say a rockered ski is less versatile. What can't you do on a tip-rockered ski, that you can on a traditional ski with subtle early rise? Give me a Cham 97 (for example) and I'll be able to do anything I can on an E98. The E98 would carve better, but I wouldn't say that makes it more versatile, it just makes it better at carving.

 

On the other end, I've skied skis with similar early rise profiles to the E98. It just doesn't plane like real tip-rockered skis do. You'll have to resort to old-school pumping techniques to ski deeper snow (i.e. actively decambering the ski into full rocker at the important point of the turn - the transitions). While this works, it is a terribly inefficient technique, when modern equipment would work a lot better - something that consistently zips you right to the top of the snowpack without needing a steep slope and a straightline to get your speed up first.

 

I can't say I've ever experienced a difficulty developing tip pressure early in the turn on a tip-rockered ski - perhaps you're not detuning the rockered tip properly, and it's engaging as part of the edge? You need to take a bastard file, and completely eliminate the cornered edge of the tip - as in, it should go from approx this: _| to this /. A company like Praxis (I think) and ON3P will do this at the factory for you. Your tip-engagement on hard snow then becomes the contact point, more or less. This is different from detuning subtle early rise skis (like the E98 and all-terrain rocker from K2), where you still want the early rise tip sharp, since it is used when on edge. In a real tip rockered ski, the rockered tip is only used to get the ski planing (and slice through crud). It is not used to initiate a turn. You get less running length (and thus, less bite), but you gain a huge improvement in the ability to plane in softer snow.

post #49 of 50
Thread Starter 

OP here.  I'm back after demoing and buying the Bonafides 187.  Skied em two days at Squaw, Saturday/Sunday while it was blowing about 30 and storming the whole time.

 

I didn't believe all the hype until I got on the Bone.  They felt right and so I bought them that night.  Set them up with the FKS 140 though I had demoed on the Markers.  Guy next to me bought the Cohise with Markers on em.  

 

Josh at the Gold Coast Demo shop gave me solid feedback.  I tried to be honest with him on my level, what I had tried, and all the feedback here.  He had the 187 set up which I skied mostly windblown/tracked pow/light crud.

 

That night I went to the base shop and gave my boot over.  The next morning, they were ready before I even had my lift tickets.

 

Sunday was blustery too, decent to great snow but tough visibility and limited open runs.

 

Scored some GNAR ECPs and generally had a blast the whole weekend!

 

Honestly, I'm sure I could be happy on any/many of the skis we've talked about.  The Bones just made sense to me.

 

Some feedback:.

 

They are torsionly very stiff with a nice pop.  The tip rocker is slightly splayed.  The tip is tapered in the tip and fairly low profile.

 

I described the skis as "scalpels" that day.  I was immediately skiing better and having fun all over Shirley/Gold Cost area.  That was what made me want to keep skiing them.

post #50 of 50

............. another "Believer" :) ............... They do everything they are supposed to do.............. and do it all well............. Enjoy!

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