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A question about leg movements and turning - Page 8

post #211 of 216
Thread Starter 

Did a lot of inline skating since end of last ski season. Still room for lots of improvement, but have gotten a bunch of miles in and worked on different stuff, and know that I've gotten better - amongst other things over time I continue to get more comfortable skating steeper slopes faster.


Was thinking about the first post, and how it's still true for me...



Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

Anyway, skating down a moderate slope with a little speed, attempting to "carve" turns - no wedge or crossover in this context - skates parallel. This is what I've found...


  1. In order to balance as I turn I have to angulate, and in order to angulate I have inside skate (tip) lead - happens naturally
  2. At transition I find myself actively pushing the outside skate forward as I "topple" into new turn
  3. Old outside skate becomes new inside skate with tip lead as turn progresses


...when I came across this video recently...



This thread turned into a big cluster f**k about one-footed versus two-footed skiing, but I never meant to put the focus on that. When I skate and carve downhill turns my skates both stay on the ground, but there is noticeable tip lead, and that tip lead naturally changes when I go to change edges. Same thing that's happening in the video above, except he's presenting it as "pull the uphill foot back", (pull old inside/new outside ski back), and I think of it as "push the downhill foot forward", (push old outside/new inside ski forward). Relative to the position of the feet/skis/skates it's the same thing - I need to play with it next time I skate (and ski) and see if there's an effective difference between the two.


When you watch Ligety ski, do you not see the same thing?


post #212 of 216

In a wedge turn at a snail's pace on nearly flat terrain, you can make a turn happen by pulling the new INSIDE ski back.

You can also make a turn happen by pulling the new OUTSIDE ski back.  


Similar to your quandary, jc-ski.  Seemingly opposite movements produce seemingly similar results.

post #213 of 216
inside tip lead is an inevitable result of big edge angles and counter. Obsessing over eliminating it can cause just as many problems as intentionally creating it artificially. The truth is there will be some. However the bigger the tip lead, the more of a recentering move you will have to make at the end of every turn to catch up to the new outside ski. The problem is that a big tip lead will put the inside ski ahead of your CoM which isn't a terrible problem until you have to stand on it for the next turn. Then suddenly you will be very aft unless you do something.

I hear people obsessing about tip lead and skiing with overly square stances to eliminate it or even try to push their outside ski forward to eliminate the tip lead, which is even worse!

My own opinion is don't think about creating tip lead. I don't like Butler's advice to pull the outside foot back. Just develop the edge angles and counter as you see fit, but hold the inside foot back as much as you can without upsetting the rest of your countered stance. As you begin to release the turn you pull it back more as your counter and edge angles unwind to square, so that by the time you are standing on it, the tip lead is gone and its under your CoM. But if you have some resulting tip lead around the apex like you see with Ted, it's not a problem and its going to be there if there are big edge angles.

Pay close attention to recentering movements Ted is making between apex and edge change.
post #214 of 216
Just jumping in on a long thread without reading everything, but this has been an issue for me.

Due to some mis-understanding, from several places, I kept trying to force the new inside ski back all last season, so much so that it was causing all kinds of problems that would not let me progress, until a guy took pity on me and showed me what I was doing wrong and how to use the tip lead to open the hips etc, over the last two days of the season. Issues were essentially locking the upper body and not letting me balance properly on the skis, as the turn progresses.

Anyways, tip lead is something you allow to happen, as the turn develops. Many people ski with too much of a tip lead and that's why the stern warnings that threw me off. Half a boot lead is good, even up to one boot, for steep/huge angles, if you can get there... It really is biomechanics, so not a technical discussion.

Shuffling on purpose or too much tip lead too early is also a bad thing. It will help you start the turn all right, but with hip dumping and other side effects, like skiing well back etc. The turn happens because of tipping your ankles, tip lead naturally develops and it's something you keep in check. There are many cues, like keeping the shin angles the same etc.

Do not always take a WC snapshot or video sequence, think you see something and say "that's how it is done"! Those guys are great athletes, ski with much power and can do whatever they want, whenever hey need to. Think it through... If they are late and need to drop, they'll shuffle and drop etc. Always try to look at their training videos, not their race videos... they'll also occasionally throw a leg into the air...
post #215 of 216
As to skiing on one leg versus two, performance skiing has always occurred on the outside ski. Wether the inside ski is in the air or skimming the snow, with the current skis, it is a matter of style. Transferring weight early to the LTE is also normal,

Do this: go to youtube,com and watch some Ingemar Stenmark slalom

Then very very carefully watch Hirscher slalom, in slow motion if possible. Now compare their timing of the release, and type of release. You may be surprised to see they are similar, but harder to detect for modern WC racers.

post #216 of 216

The movement you're referring to is generally a result of your body's squaring towards the end of the turn. Less an independent leg action and more a linked movement with the rest of the body unwinding from bottom of the control phase to the moment of transition. Whether you need to be considering it as such or not, however, depends on your strengths/weaknesses. Sometimes a piece might be missing from your skiing that a movement like that would help you to feel and become aware of.

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