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Fischer lace-up boot liners - leave permanently inside shell or not?

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 

Hi everyone,

 

I have new Fischer Vacuum boots with lace-up liners. With my previous injected liners, I was warned to avoid excessive insertion/extraction of the liner with the shell to prevent wear and tear on the liner due to rubbing on any rough interior surfaces inside the shell.

 

I have seen other owners of Fischer lace-up liners installing their liners on their feet outside the shell, tightening up the laces, and then inserting the foot and liner as one into the shell. My ski store told me that this offers racers the best fit possible.

 

To me the down side of this approach is that there are many places where the liner is exposed to rough edges while inserting and extracting.

 

As well, once the buckles are finally closed, the laces may go slack because the buckles exert a much greater compression on the feet than the laces could possibly do when they are tightened in advance by hand.

 

I do find that sliding my foot into a liner that is already in the shell is a tight squeeze and I can imagine that it may be easier to first install the liner on the foot in total comfort and then force the foot filled liner into the shell.

 

Please be reminded that Fischer has gone to the trouble to install pull straps on the liner tops to facilitate frequent removal.

 

Any thoughts on the advantages of having laces (whether they are tightly tied before or after the liner is in the shell) and whether it is best to leave the liner permanently in the shell?

 

Thanks

post #2 of 31

I got my Fisher Vacuum 130s at the begining of last season, and have both the stock Fisher liner and an Intuition liner.  I ended up getting the Intuition liner because my feet were cold with the stock liner.  However, once I duck taped the front seam on the boots my feet were no longer cold with the stock liner unless it was very cold outside.

 

So all said, I ended up skiing most of the season in the stock liners (about 25+ days).  I threw away the laces on day one and found no issues with fit wuthout them.  That also means I can leave the stock liner in the boots if I want when I take them off and put them back on but, I also found it easy to pull the liner out if I wanted them to dry out real good, and put the liner on my feet, then step into the boots without any issues.  So far the stock liner is still in very good shape.

post #3 of 31

I have the Vacuums with lace-up liners and I put liners first and then get into the shell. Since the shell fit is so precise I just can not get into the boot when liner is inside the shell...

post #4 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfr View Post

I have the Vacuums with lace-up liners and I put liners first and then get into the shell. Since the shell fit is so precise I just can not get into the boot when liner is inside the shell...

 

 

cfr, before molding, it was easy to slip my foot into the boot when the liner was already inserted into the shell, but after molding, the clearance has been dramatically reduced. In fact it is now such a squeeze to get my foot in that I am worried that the velcro holding the tongue to the liner toe will displace. Another issue is that my custom footbed was transplanted from my previous boots and is 1/4" shorter than the ideal length for the Fischer liner. The result is that the footbed can slide easily forward when squeezing my foot into the liner when it is already installed in the shell and once the footbed slides forward, it won't slide back to the ideal heel position even if I kick my boot heel against the floor. I can manage my footbed alignment better if I put the liner on first and then insert it into the shell.

post #5 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal View Post

 

 

cfr, before molding, it was easy to slip my foot into the boot when the liner was already inserted into the shell, but after molding, the clearance has been dramatically reduced. In fact it is now such a squeeze to get my foot in that I am worried that the velcro holding the tongue to the liner toe will displace. Another issue is that my custom footbed was transplanted from my previous boots and is 1/4" shorter than the ideal length for the Fischer liner. The result is that the footbed can slide easily forward when squeezing my foot into the liner when it is already installed in the shell and once the footbed slides forward, it won't slide back to the ideal heel position even if I kick my boot heel against the floor. I can manage my footbed alignment better if I put the liner on first and then insert it into the shell.

 

Not Fischer specific, but I find it much less painful to insert foot into liner first, then the whole thing into boot.

 

I also have a short footbed from an older boot,  I found some super strong two sided tape solves the problem of it moving.  Takes some trial and error to stick it just in the right place.  But it never moved after that.

post #6 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal View Post

Hi everyone,

 

I have new Fischer Vacuum boots with lace-up liners. With my previous injected liners, I was warned to avoid excessive insertion/extraction of the liner with the shell to prevent wear and tear on the liner due to rubbing on any rough interior surfaces inside the shell.

 

I have seen other owners of Fischer lace-up liners installing their liners on their feet outside the shell, tightening up the laces, and then inserting the foot and liner as one into the shell. My ski store told me that this offers racers the best fit possible.

 

To me the down side of this approach is that there are many places where the liner is exposed to rough edges while inserting and extracting.

 

As well, once the buckles are finally closed, the laces may go slack because the buckles exert a much greater compression on the feet than the laces could possibly do when they are tightened in advance by hand.

 

I do find that sliding my foot into a liner that is already in the shell is a tight squeeze and I can imagine that it may be easier to first install the liner on the foot in total comfort and then force the foot filled liner into the shell.

 

Please be reminded that Fischer has gone to the trouble to install pull straps on the liner tops to facilitate frequent removal.

 

Any thoughts on the advantages of having laces (whether they are tightly tied before or after the liner is in the shell) and whether it is best to leave the liner permanently in the shell?

 

Thanks

If that's a plug fit (which it should be) there is no way you will be able to take them off without having the liner still on your feet, or put them on if it's cold.  Yes, that creates wear and tear on the liner but that's just the way it is. If you want to reduce it try to smooth out the inside of the shell (dremel?) or some aluminum foil tape.

As far as laces getting loose after you buckle up, put them on and then retighten them ;)

post #7 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RatherPlayThanWork View Post

 

Not Fischer specific, but I find it much less painful to insert foot into liner first, then the whole thing into boot.

 

I also have a short footbed from an older boot,  I found some super strong two sided tape solves the problem of it moving.  Takes some trial and error to stick it just in the right place.  But it never moved after that.

 

 

That's a great idea, two sided tape, but because I want to be able to remove my footbeds from time to time, I think I'll make a full size template out of a rigid thin material like Dupont Nomex and use the double sided tape to stick the footbed to the template.

post #8 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal View Post

 

 

That's a great idea, two sided tape, but because I want to be able to remove my footbeds from time to time, I think I'll make a full size template out of a rigid thin material like Dupont Nomex and use the double sided tape to stick the footbed to the template.

It peels off, it just takes a lot of force to remove them from the liners after they have been skied on for a while.

post #9 of 31

A little patch of the hook side of velcro stuck to the bottom of your footbed works too.

post #10 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RatherPlayThanWork View Post

It peels off, it just takes a lot of force to remove them from the liners after they have been skied on for a while.


Thanks RPTW, In the end I used contac cement to glue a tapered piece of Nomex paper to the front bottom of the footbed and let it overhang the front of the footbed by 1/4". Then I laminated some fill material to create an identical thickness.

1000

1000

post #11 of 31

I skied 130 black and whites all last year -- 2 days with stock, 42 with ZipFits.

 

 

Every single time, the liner went on my foot, then in the boot.

post #12 of 31
Thread Starter 

I spoke with the Canadian distributor this morning and she said that the consensus around her office was that the liner goes in the boot permanently and then the foot goes in. She appreciated that skiers may prefer to do otherwise, and that the best fit would be achieved by lacing the liner up tightly before putting the foot filled liner in the shell.
 

post #13 of 31

True for 99% of the boots, plug/race boots simply do not work that way or if the do they are not the correct fit. smile.gif

post #14 of 31
Thread Starter 

Inserting my foot into a liner (with laces missing) already installed in a warm shell is difficult and uncomfortable, but doable.

Inserting my foot first into a liner, doing up the laces, and then inserting my foot filled liner into a warm shell is a comfortable procedure, but requires that I bend open the shell with my hands to facilitate the insertion.

After a day of skiing in temperatures in the high teens, and after waiting 10 minutes inside the chalet, it is impossible to pull the foot filled liner out of the shell.

Likewise, if I untie the laces while my feet are still in the cool liner within the cool shell, it is impossible to pull out my foot while allowing the liner to remain completely in the shell.

The only way I could get my foot out of the ski boot yesterday was to pull my foot partly out of the liner then pull the partly filled liner of of the shell.

 

There are two other options which may work better in removing my foot from the boot:

(1) wait longer than 10 minutes for the shell to warm up completely to room temperature.

(2) stop using laces and see if my foot can pull out more easily from the liner while still installed in the shell.

 

I should also add that while the inside of the shell has been sprayed in advance with aerosol silicon lubricant, the lower exterior surface of the liner is made of felt like material which does not lend itself to sliding easily against cold hard plastic as my previous injected liner whose exterior surface was in smooth vinyl coated cloth.


Edited by montreal - 12/2/12 at 8:11am
post #15 of 31

I'm sorry, but unless you can't get your foot out of the boot in some fashion, I don't understand the issue.

post #16 of 31
Quote:

Originally Posted by montreal View Post

 

I have seen other owners of Fischer lace-up liners installing their liners on their feet outside the shell, tightening up the laces, and then inserting the foot and liner as one into the shell. My ski store told me that this offers racers the best fit possible.

 

To me the down side of this approach is that there are many places where the liner is exposed to rough edges while inserting and extracting.

 

Forgot to add it in the 1st response - my first year release yellow boots' liners are of so crappy quality that I do not worry too much of damaging them. However, I just put some duct tape over some prominent rough edges inside the shell to ease sliding in and out. Also, but that could be not applicable to all people owning the boots, liners will die in about two seasons for me anyway.... I am on the second season now and I already stocked up with regular race liners to replace the original ones.

post #17 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDad View Post

I'm sorry, but unless you can't get your foot out of the boot in some fashion, I don't understand the issue.

 

 

I know my problem looks trivial to you if I can ultimately get my foot out of the boot, but I simply want to discover the best foot extraction technique that (1) avoids damaging the outer surface of the liner, (2) avoids mis-aligning  the thick foam rubber pads embedded within the liner in the ankle area, and (3) during foot insertion, avoids displacing  the liner tongue which is secured in place only by the velcro attachment in the toe area.

post #18 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfr View Post

 

Forgot to add it in the 1st response - my first year release yellow boots' liners are of so crappy quality that I do not worry too much of damaging them. However, I just put some duct tape over some prominent rough edges inside the shell to ease sliding in and out. Also, but that could be not applicable to all people owning the boots, liners will die in about two seasons for me anyway.... I am on the second season now and I already stocked up with regular race liners to replace the original ones.

 

 

Just like I have to accept the fact that my high performance winter tires will wear out faster than ordinary winter tires, I will have to get used to the idea that stock liners in performance ski boot shells will not last as long. Thanks for all your comments.....

post #19 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal View Post

 

 

I know my problem looks trivial to you if I can ultimately get my foot out of the boot, but I simply want to discover the best foot extraction technique that (1) avoids damaging the outer surface of the liner, (2) avoids mis-aligning  the thick foam rubber pads embedded within the liner in the ankle area, and (3) during foot insertion, avoids displacing  the liner tongue which is secured in place only by the velcro attachment in the toe area.

 

(1) The outer surface of the liner will likely last longer than the inner padding. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

(2) Are these things your fitter added in, or part of the liner?

 

(3) The good thing about Velcro is that you can reattach it.

post #20 of 31
My liners stay in the boot. I found that I was damaging the liners trying to pull them out. A quality aftermarket liner like ZipFit may be tougher and could go in and out w/out any issues. It's probably a matter of taste more than anything else.
post #21 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDad View Post

 

(1) The outer surface of the liner will likely last longer than the inner padding. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

(2) Are these things your fitter added in, or part of the liner?

 

(3) The good thing about Velcro is that you can reattach it.


Thanks for your comments.

 

(1) OK, I agree.

 

(2) When trying to pull my foot out unsuccessfully, I noticed that there were thicker cushions in the ankle area as part of the Fischer liner  which seemed to be loosely connected to the adjacent padding and I could see these cushions beginning to displace as I stressed the region. My conclusion was that if I pulled on my foot too hard, I might cause a rupture in the foam. My ankle bones stick out about a half inch and the liner padding now has deep concave pockets to receive them, so if I pull hard on my feet while my ankle is well embedded in these foam cavities, it may permanently deform the padded structure.

 

(3) Velcro may be easy to attach, but I don't want it to dislocate it while I'm pushing my foot into the toe area and then discover that my tongue is now mis-aligned forward from the ideal spot and I can't reset the velcro back into place with my foot in the boot at that same time. The solution might be for me to stitch a strong tread through the velcro to prevent it from displacing while under stress. I don't have this problem if I put my liner on my foot before inserting into the shell.

 

So far most the various opinions seem to suggest that I would gain more by tightly lacing up the liner on my foot prior to insertion in the shell and likewise removing the tightly laced liner from the shell after the shell has completely warmed up to room temperature. That way the ankle padding will never deform and the velcro will never shift. I just have to calculate how many drinks in the bar it takes before the shell reaches ambient room temperature.

post #22 of 31

with my lace ups i always put them on my feet then into the shell (not Fischer BTW)

i'm adding my 2 cents here because you mention silicon spray

be aware that some types of silicon spray may damage plastic/stitching/leather whatever so be careful

post #23 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal View Post

(2) When trying to pull my foot out unsuccessfully, I noticed that there were thicker cushions in the ankle area as part of the Fischer liner  which seemed to be loosely connected to the adjacent padding and I could see these cushions beginning to displace as I stressed the region. My conclusion was that if I pulled on my foot too hard, I might cause a rupture in the foam. My ankle bones stick out about a half inch and the liner padding now has deep concave pockets to receive them, so if I pull hard on my feet while my ankle is well embedded in these foam cavities, it may permanently deform the padded structure.

 

I have a bit of an orthogonal take on this.  If, in fact, the foam actually ruptures when you pull your foot out, it would have been reasonably likely to do so from ordinary stresses of skiing.  Which brings us back to the bottom line: the stock liners Fischer shipped with this boot are substandard for the price range, and you'd be better off replacing them.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal View Post

(3) Velcro may be easy to attach, but I don't want it to dislocate it while I'm pushing my foot into the toe area and then discover that my tongue is now mis-aligned forward from the ideal spot and I can't reset the velcro back into place with my foot in the boot at that same time. The solution might be for me to stitch a strong tread through the velcro to prevent it from displacing while under stress. I don't have this problem if I put my liner on my foot before inserting into the shell.

 

Another reason to put the liner on before inserting, then.

post #24 of 31

Montreal, have you tried pointing a hair dryer onto top area where the flaps of the cuff and the tongue overlap each other?  I stick my small hairdryer inbetween the two flaps and allow it to blow right down onto the top of the tongue and the inner flap, right at the bend in the ankle.  This will soften up this area and allow you to pry everything open easily.  It takes 1 minute to get the plastic warm enough in my boots, which admittedly aren't Fisher Vacuums.  

post #25 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Montreal, have you tried pointing a hair dryer onto top area where the flaps of the cuff and the tongue overlap each other?  I stick my small hairdryer inbetween the two flaps and allow it to blow right down onto the top of the tongue and the inner flap, right at the bend in the ankle.  This will soften up this area and allow you to pry everything open easily.  It takes 1 minute to get the plastic warm enough in my boots, which admittedly aren't Fisher Vacuums.

The problem is that in the public chalet at the ski center, there is not an easy access to a wall plug, but otherwise, you have pointed out the ideal place to aim such a hair dryer.

 

So the real question is how long does it take for the total boot mass to warm up to 70 degrees when one has been skiing in freezing temperatures?

 

Perhaps what I failed to initially appreciate is that when liners are custom injected with urethane or (Fischer) shells are custom molded under heat and pressure, you end up with a snug fit that does not leave a lot of clearance when inserting and extracting one's foot. This is a new challenge I never faced 10 years ago.

 

I imagine that in the event of a ski injury, the ski patrol would have to cut up my boot to get it off my foot.

post #26 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDad View Post


Another reason to put the liner on before inserting, then.

I am in total agreement with you...thanks for all your comments.

post #27 of 31
Thread Starter 

After skiing 18 times this season, I observe that when the liner is pulled from the shell while the foot is still laced up within the liner, the point of contact which has the greatest pressure is at the heel end of the sole of the liner. Here on one liner, there has been some abrasion, enough to create two small cuts into the black plastic liner sole. I have sealed these cuts with a drop of crazy glue (Locktite Super Glue) which has "welded" shut the small holes.

 

The rear plastic spoiler is attached to the shell with two screws which were 1/16" too long and protruded too much inside the shell creating a potential point of abrasion while extracting the liner. I ground down these screws so that their ends would be completely recessed within the "Tee-Nut".

 

I should remind all readers of this post that my shells are the Fischer Vacuum RC4 Pro 130 which are custom molded under heat.

It is this extremely tight but comfortable fit which makes it impossible for me to pull my foot out of the liner if the liner is to remain in the shell at the same time. That is why I have no choice but to pull both foot and liner out of the shell at the same time.

 

I have also noticed that on the inside of the left shell in the rear but offset from the center-line, the yellow plastic is beginning to fray. That is to say, as the plastic surface gets scuffed up from the abrasion with the liner due to removal, there are being formed loose fibers of plastic that tear off in thin long threads. It is as if the shell is made of long microscopic threads of plastic all fused together under heat while in the factory mold, and these fibers retain their physical distinctness. Obviously, when I pull out my left liner, I must be pulling in a skewing trajectory, while for my right liner, I seem to be pulling in line with the center-line of the shell, so there is much less abrasion on the right shell.

 

I have been spraying silicon lubricant occasionally on the inside of the shell to reduce the abrasion from the liner during removal. I would like to identify a better lubricant which wouldn't thin out or dry out so easily, but not get gummy over time.

post #28 of 31

try a dusting of talcum powder on the liner and down the throat of th shell....

post #29 of 31
Thread Starter 

It's been a few years since I started this thread.

 

Over this time I noticed that one undesirable consequence of inserting and removing the liner from the shell while the foot is already in the liner is that occasionally the front overlapping and underlapping flaps will both get pulled up enough to cross each other between the 2nd and 3rd buckle such that the sharp edge of each flap digs into the other creating a cut in one or both.

 

As time goes on, this (these) cut(s) begin to open into a longer tear. Drilling a hole in the advancing tear will slow down the progression somewhat, but ultimately the tear will continue along a path that stops where the tear no longer receives enough stress to continue. Fortunately, where these tears typically stop, they are not close to the screw fasteners of any nearby buckle.

 

Cutting an existing straight line tear into a shallow "V" shaped notch helps by reducing the chance that the criss-crossing lace of the liner will get caught up in (hooked into) the tear as the liner is inserted into the shell. Notching a "V" into this special ski boot plastic can be done easily with sheet metal snips and the remaining sharp edges of the "V" can be sanded smooth with sandpaper or a small triangular shaped file.

 

As always, after 3 or 4 days of skiing, I re-coat the smooth bottom and heel of the liner and the inside of the shell with silicon spray (sold in hardware stores) and that makes a world of difference when inserting the liners.

 

After using these boots for 3 seasons, I bought an identical new pair and the ski shop told me that all their customers of these vacuum molded boots are faced with the same predicament of having to put their feet in the lace-up liners before inserting into their shells. The shop owner claims that Fischer has now made the flaps less likely to tear.

 

Placing my 2013 and  2016 boots side by side, it is obvious that the flap edges on the newer version are not quite as sharp and a bit softer, thus reducing the chance of a tear starting.

 

The best way to avoid any tearing occurring is to place your thumbs under the top of the flaps (behind the 3rd. buckle) and pull them out when sliding your liner into the shell. This will help keep the outer flap above the inner flap and keep their edges from cutting into each other.

 

Otherwise, these are the best boots that I have ever worn in my life.

post #30 of 31

Interesting saga, Montreal. I'm trying to decide whether to buy a 2015 RC4 Pro 130 at a very good (for Tokyo) discount, and this discussion has been helpful. I understand Fischer changed the liners quite a bit after 2012, and they are warmer -- very important to me -- and better quality. I've grown quite skilled at hair-dryer boot warming, but would worry about that a bit with the Fischers,

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