New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

MA The Perfect Parallel - Page 2

post #31 of 45
that's a great image bob! i like the view from above...did you create that yourself? sorry for being off topic a bit.

zentune
post #32 of 45

Actually Zen, I was hoping to read your description of a perfect parallel turn. Give it a go. As a racer I am curious how you would see that idea.

post #33 of 45
allright Jasp, i'll give it a go. for me, a perfect paralell has a little "zesty" flavor to it. One reason i like bob's diagram is that, from an above view, it shows the bos and com crossing paths...body angulated over the outside ski(s) with turn transition clearly shown.

My perfect turn (and my favorite to see others perform) would be a short to medium radius turn, with a little more counter than seen in bobs diagram. weighting changes would be continual. also, i like to see pressuring of the front of the boots at iniation...via a pronounced (not "sudden", tho;)) forward movement of the hips and a foraganal movement of the com/body down the fall line,"leading the skis", which BTW, is the movement by which i would like to see facilitate the edge change. as the skis come around, angulation and counter increase until turn shape is completed. as weight moves towards 50/50 a brief squaring should occur.
xtra credit points awarded for some foot steering through the arc...
also, every thing should line up. inside hand ahead of outside by more or less the same amount that the inside boot is ahead of the outside (when not squaring, of course) ski tips, knees, hips, shoulders, hands match the angle of the slope no matter what part of the turn the skier is engaged in.
from an artistic standpoint, i prefer a crossover type move as opposed to an under...tho some intermingling can,and should occur. as you know, i'm NOT a fan of following the skis--remaining square all the time. i mean, sure it works, but frankly it's a little too dull.
back at work, gotta go...

zentune
post #34 of 45
i do realize that such may not be apropo for a level 2/3 exam. ive never taken one...not sure if they want to see that or not...

respectfully
zentune
post #35 of 45
Zentune--thanks for adding to the conversation!

For what it's worth, I would not think that anything you've described would be in fundamental conflict either with my diagram, or with the requirements of lower-speed ("basic parallel") demos or the Level 2 exam (with the possible exception of a need to clarify, at least, what you mean by "forward" and "foragonal motion"--topics much discussed here in other threads and an area that I feel is subject to a great deal of confusion, mythology, semi-truth, and sometimes downright falsehood).

Characteristics like range and intensity of motion and degree of counter will vary with speed, skill level, conditions, turn radius and shape, and terrain, but the fundamental principles can remain identical.

Thanks again, everyone, for your participation here. I look forward to more!

Best regards,
Bob
post #36 of 45
thanks, Bob. hips need to move forward over the boots to initiate (pressure the tips) foraganal as in body moves diagonally into the fall line, rolling the skis onto their new edges (new outside in some cases still "uphill"). this would be for getting earliest pressure possible at the top of the turn for a crisp turn shape.

zentune
post #37 of 45
OK, Zen--thanks for the clarification. Still fodder for a good discussion. (That is to say, we may disagree on some points.) cool.gif

If you have some time, you may want to read up on a few prior discussions on the topic. Here are some of them:

Reconciling Foot Squirt™ with Foragonal movements

A Tale of Three Turns

Is this aft?

Where do we want our hips over our feet? Why do we want to move our hips forward?

Short Radius Turns (article, distilled from a discussion thread)

... and check out the following clip I put together about the turn transition, which may call into question the need for "forward pressure" and hips "in front" of feet at the turn initiation:




Hint #1: Which direction, really, is "forward"? I can think of many possibilities, only one of which would I agree is necessarily true of the direction the hips or center of mass must move at the start of a turn: 1) direction the skis point, 2) direction the body faces, 3) direction the skis are moving, 4) direction the body is moving, 5) down the hill, and more....

Hint #2: When the body or center of mass moves diagonally forward and down the hill, or "forwagonally," what are the feet doing? Remember that, since they take a necessarily longer path down the hill than the body, their path outside the path of the body with the paths crossing at "turn neutral," the feet move faster than the rest of the body. One obvious characteristic of great skiers--especially racers--is that their fast-moving feet never slow down through the transition. Observe this often-discussed clip of Marcel Hirscher training slalom:



Hint #3: I contend that turns begin with an edge release--not an edge engagement, of the tips or otherwise. Clearly, Hirscher's turns above rarely show edge engagement until well into the turn--often not until at or near the fall line.

Good stuff for discussion! (But perhaps in another thread--let's not take this one too far off the track.)

Best regards,
Bob
post #38 of 45
Bob...I'll read what you suggested tonite. regarding when initiation begins...you'll find i'm pretty easy going. after all, skiing
is a fluid thing, describing it can be as well
i dont necessarily like absolutes. how many different ways to describe the mona lisa, for instance?

zentune
post #39 of 45
Thread Starter 

I thank everyone who has given some input to a subject that phases a lot of us, below is a similar grid that we use in RM see what you think it is by no means correct, mearly my own thoughts.

 

 

    Transition/Initiation   Shaping   Finish/Transition
             
Prsessure    ski   Bends equally from ski centre (front to back)   Continue to bend from centre, pivot point at centre with same intensity (front/back)   Continue to bend from centre (foot/foot)
    Downhill ski slightly more bent at beginning of initiation moving to equal at end of initiation (foot to foot)   downhill ski bends progressively more through turn    uphill/downhill ski begins to equalise through phase
             
Pressure     body   Ankle, knees & hips ( AKH) appropriately flexed and centred   AKH uphill ski flex increases d/hill leg straightens (extends)   Com begins to transition to neutral over toes and centre of both skis
             
    Centre of mass (COM) maintained over centre of boots   Centre of mass (COM) maintained over centre of boots    
             
Maintain   Appropriate COM management = DIRT leading to effective timing. Stable pelvis & upper body.   COM balanced towards d/hill over downhill boot, hands remain forward of hips, seperation of upper/lower body   Subtle extension and flexation movement keep COM over base of support (throughout all phases) COM  moves to neutral
             
             
             
Rotary           ski   Both twist at the same rate, reducing to no twist before fall line   Both skis turn at same rate (sequentially) and for same duration. Skis turn from centre.   Both skis twist at same rate (sequentially) 
             
             
                  body   both legs turn (rotate) at same rate = timing   Both femurs turn at same rate and intensity reaching highest twist (rotation) at end of shaping, upper counter rotates facing towards downhill   Both femurs turn at same rate and intensity becoming miminal
             
             
Edge            Ski   At beginning move from slightly tipped through to flat   Both skis continue to tip to the same angle reaching highest angle at end of shaping. Tip at same rate, time and duration.   Both skis reduce edge angle sequentially at same rate
             
                 body   Legs extend & flex to equal length at fall line  

legs tip uphill apropriate to turn shape (incline) body tips downhill in proportion (angulation) Tipping originates in legs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  Body untips to appropriate angles for turn shape
post #40 of 45

   O.k. Bob, I'm home now (after a SLOW day at work). I like the medicine ball video. Won't be able to read everything you've linked tonight though (skis to tune). Also, I've watched the Hirscher training vid MANY times before today...LOVE it!! But, as you said, let's not get this thread too far off track. 

 

   Regarding MY perfect parallel turn...I was thinking of my favorite conditions (firm and/or icy), my favorite slope (medium to steep, with lots of terrain features),  my favorite skis (volkl racetiger 165 sl fis), my favorite turn shape (short to medium turn radius), and my favorite SA turns (cross overs, with some unders, and a mix of the two, all in the same run...think choreography). I guess where I'm going with this is...I don't think one can say, NEVER move the hips forward. I also don't think one can say, ALWAYS move the hips forward. There's simply TOO many variables present: 1) skier ability level 2) snow conditions 3) slope angle(s) 4) which skis? 5) radius etc....

 

   Hirscher's edge engagement well into the fall line, to me, is the indicative result of retraction (invisible mogul absorbtion) and is but ONE facet of good skiing. There are times when it's necessary...and times when it's not. Skiing is, and should be FLUID, as we are "flowing" (matching the slope) down the fall line, like water down a sometimes tumultuous stream. The same turn is not, and should not, always be indicated (unless skiing on a slope perfectly the same, from top as it is to bottom--and even then, spice it up, I would posit).

 

    Respectfully, 

 

    zentune


Edited by zentune - 1/8/13 at 6:59pm
post #41 of 45
Sounds good, Zen. I agree with the rich spectrum of variability, the need for adaptability and versatility, the case for each of us having our own personal preferences, and the advisability of "never saying never." But do remember that this thread is concerned with a single, specific benchmark technique that serves as reference point for all of the other variables. As such, it's not important even to to "like" it!

Derek--great job putting it all down in simple terms and fitting your description into the rigid PSIA-RM MA grid format. I think you've nailed a lot of it, too. I do have a couple questions--did you mean "simultaneous" (at the same time) in the several places where you wrote "sequential" (one-at-a-time)? Also, under "edge," you wrote that legs would be equal length at the fall-line. I suggest that that would be true in a Pivot Slip, but probably not in a Basic Parallel Turn, where the inside leg will generally be more flexed than the outside leg. Or am I missing your meaning? Finally, under "Pressure," I think it might be less ambiguous if you described the inside and outside skis of the turn, rather than the uphill and downhill skis (remember that the uphill ski at the beginning of the turn becomes the downhill at the fall line).

Sorry I won't be at our Wednesday night MA discussion tomorrow to talk this over with the group. I'll be in Winter Park, but I look forward to hearing what you all come up with, if it comes up in discussion..

Best regards,
Bob
post #42 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

Sounds good, Zen. I agree with the rich spectrum of variability, the need for adaptability and versatility, the case for each of us having our own personal preferences, and the advisability of "never saying never." But do remember that this thread is concerned with a single, specific benchmark technique that serves as reference point for all of the other variables. As such, it's not important even to to "like" it!
Derek--great job putting it all down in simple terms and fitting your description into the rigid PSIA-RM MA grid format. I think you've nailed a lot of it, too. I do have a couple questions--did you mean "simultaneous" (at the same time) in the several places where you wrote "sequential" (one-at-a-time)? Also, under "edge," you wrote that legs would be equal length at the fall-line. I suggest that that would be true in a Pivot Slip, but probably not in a Basic Parallel Turn, where the inside leg will generally be more flexed than the outside leg. Or am I missing your meaning? Finally, under "Pressure," I think it might be less ambiguous if you described the inside and outside skis of the turn, rather than the uphill and downhill skis (remember that the uphill ski at the beginning of the turn becomes the downhill at the fall line).
Sorry I won't be at our Wednesday night MA discussion tomorrow to talk this over with the group. I'll be in Winter Park, but I look forward to hearing what you all come up with, if it comes up in discussion..
Best regards,
Bob

   Thanks, Bob!  Jasp encouraged me to say something...so I did. I DO realize that the MA for a "perfect parallel" turn is a specific thing...and also knew my answer would not quite "fit the bill"wink.gif. Good talking to you (my friend/coach Tom Melhuse was in some clinics with you back in the day, BTW) Looking forward to future discussions!

     I know Tom would probably like to remain out of the spotlight though...

    Zentune

post #43 of 45
I suppose I should have been a little more specific but the shorter turn at a less dynamic pace should be similar to the med radius parallel turn.
post #44 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

I suppose I should have been a little more specific but the shorter turn at a less dynamic pace should be similar to the med radius parallel turn.


   Sorry Jasp...I also suppose I shouldn't have been so dramatic with my description. I was trying to describe what I would like to see another do...but of course, I'm not an examiner. A less dynamic short radius turn should indeed resemble a medium radius turn....

 

      zentune

post #45 of 45

Not sure what the grid expressed, Derik. That's the problem with forms and just putting something in each cell without asking if that cell is adding clarity to the verbal picture you are painting. Especially when the information contradicts what you wrote in the previous / following cell. For Example: in the Rotary cells you wrote about ski pivot as a variable in that steered turn. Are you trying to say the shaping phase would be carved and the initiation and finishing phase are skidded? Does that match the expressed intent of a round constant radius skidded turn? Wouldn't that include equal amounts of skidding in all phases of that turn? See the problem? Another issue is seen in the pressure (ski) cell where you wrote about a pivot point. Wouldn't that belong in the rotary cell?

 

I'm not trying to be critical as much as express the idea that a more global perspective will help you learn how to recognize and then express what you are seeing. What you put in each cell must support that global perspective. When it contradicts it, you must question the accuracy of what you are putting in that cell. Beyond that, let me share a thought, MA skills are mostly internal comparative analysis activities that need to happen on the fly and in a very brief time frame. So if the matrix help you do that without slowing down your lesson planning process by all means use it. If it slows down that process, or results in superfluous / erroneous information being added it suggests an abbreviated version might serve you better. In the end MA is a two or three second thing and even doing it multiple times during a lesson doesn't mean it should take very long. Granted you need to toe the line and use that matrix to identify information but it's really just a learning aid that forces you to look a little closer at how a skier moves and what that makes the skis do. When you understand that connection, the matrix might not be something you choose to use.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching