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Atomic Race 412 bindings not holding heel down firmly

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 

I picked up a pair of used Atomic Beta Race skis on the cheap, and after adjusting the bindings to my boot size, I tried stepping into them.  The bindings didn't seem to be holding the heel down tightly.  I took the boot off, clicked the boot into the bindings and took the pictures below.  The first one is with me holding the brake up with my thumb.  In this case, the heel of the boot contacts the ski.  But if I let go of the brake, the binding doesn't seem strong enough to hold it down, and the heel of the boot lifts up.

 

1000

 

1000

 

This isn't normal, is it???

 

I checked the forward pressure adjustment, and the adjusting screw at the back is flush with the housing, as the Atomic tech manual directs, so that seems correct.

 

I checked the date of manufacture of the bindings (printed on the underside of the release lever) and it is 2000, so that's within the range of dates that were recalled by Atomic (1998-2003 http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09077.html)  But the recall notice says they fail with the heel unit cracking.  That doesn't seem to be what's happening here.


Edited by renenkel - 11/27/12 at 3:14pm
post #2 of 29

I have had two sets of those crap binidings and have had heel breakage but not this problem. I remember the brake mechanism was weird in that it was very, very hard to push down then would suddenly click into place. Is the brake pushing up on the boot? Is the binding heel pressing down on the boot with a definite click?  I would not trust these bindings even if they appeared to function normally. (I learned my lesson) and would ditch them. Hopefully you didn't pay too much. Here is a big TGR thread on those bindings and their problems.

 

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/64401-Atomic-Centro-412-s-pre-release-issues

post #3 of 29

Looking at the picture you have a gap between the rear of the heel and the top of the heel cup.  When you released the brake the heel slid up to the top of the heel cup.  I would suspect that you have something stuck in the binding that is preventing the heel cup from coming all the way down.

post #4 of 29

Been there, done that.

Have your boots been canted and shaved to bring the top of the heel parallel to the canted bottom?

These bindings require the boot heel to be on the high side of the DIN spec for heel hold down height.

My solution was to glue a 1mm shim to the top of the heel area.

I'll post a pic if you are interested,

The metal 412 race bindings are good but some do have this problem.

 

From your pic it looks like there is too much foreward pressure and the thing is about to spit you out!

post #5 of 29

What boots are those? Blue like Lange racers but can't recognize the rubber heel. I assume they are DIN standard.

post #6 of 29

He painted 'em.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castle Dave View Post

What boots are those? Blue like Lange racers

post #7 of 29
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View PostLooking at the picture you have a gap between the rear of the heel and the top of the heel cup.  When you released the brake the heel slid up to the top of the heel cup.  I would suspect that you have something stuck in the binding that is preventing the heel cup from coming all the way down.

 

I looked at them again and it turns out you are right about the boot moving inside the heel cup.  If I hold the brake in the up position, I can move the heel of the boot up and down without the heel cup moving.  There is about 5mm of play.  It doesn't look like the heel cup can go any further down, though.  And both bindings behave in exactly the same way.  Strange....


Edited by renenkel - 11/27/12 at 10:16pm
post #8 of 29
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by Castle Dave View PostI would not trust these bindings even if they appeared to function normally. (I learned my lesson) and would ditch them. Hopefully you didn't pay too much. Here is a big TGR thread on those bindings and their problems.  http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/64401-Atomic-Centro-412-s-pre-release-issues

Wow....that certainly is food for thought.  The TGR thread talks about Centro 412 bindings, but mine are Race 412.  I found some pictures via Google, the toe piece looks a bit different but the heel part looks pretty similar, at least on the outside.

post #9 of 29
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
Been there, done that.

Have your boots been canted and shaved to bring the top of the heel parallel to the canted bottom?

These bindings require the boot heel to be on the high side of the DIN spec for heel hold down height.

My solution was to glue a 1mm shim to the top of the heel area.

I'll post a pic if you are interested,

The metal 412 race bindings are good but some do have this problem.

 

From your pic it looks like there is too much forward pressure and the thing is about to spit you out!

 

Actually these boots haven't had the soles planed, they're still original.  I measured the height of the boot's heel lug above the floor and it's 29mm and parallel to the bottom.  With the boot clicked in to the binding, I can move the boot's heel up and down without the binding heel cup moving.  The amount of play is 5mm.  Yes, please post a pic of your heel modification, I'd like to see it.

 

I'm a bit reluctant to add a shim to the boot though, since it works perfectly in my Fischer and Atomic Neox bindings.  I wonder if shimming the bottom of the heel of the boot would work, since the rubber tread is a bit angled rather than flat?

 

I experimented with varying the forward pressure quite a bit in both directions, but it had no effect.

post #10 of 29
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by Castle Dave View Post

What boots are those? Blue like Lange racers but can't recognize the rubber heel. I assume they are DIN standard.

They're actually Salomon Mission boots, but I painted them blue.  Supposedly they are DIN standard, since they're only a couple of years old and never canted/planed.  The heel lug is 29 mm above the base.

post #11 of 29
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View PostHe painted 'em.

Hah!  You have a good memory :-)

post #12 of 29
Quote: View Post

He painted 'em.

 

Well there's your problem!!!  biggrin.gif

post #13 of 29

I put the shim on the binding in the heel area.

It increased my ramp angle a bit but so what.

Yours look much worse than mine...I only needed a 1mm ship glued to the area under the binding.

I'll post a pic later.

post #14 of 29

U shaped shim glued to the heel rest area and another glued to the brake pad.

It looks scary but seems to work.

I cannot kick out of them at a start and they pass a DIN check.

Atomicman knows more about these bindings than me..maybe he can chime in.

You shoud also search the thread where I addressed a bunch of issues with these things.

What is your BSL?

If you have a women's plate you need to know some stuff.

Atomic cut down the men's plate wityhout changing the BSL markings.

1000

post #15 of 29
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by dakine View PostU shaped shim glued to the heel rest area and another glued to the brake pad.

It looks scary but seems to work.

I cannot kick out of them at a start and they pass a DIN check.

Atomicman knows more about these bindings than me..maybe he can chime in.

You shoud also search the thread where I addressed a bunch of issues with these things.

What is your BSL?

If you have a women's plate you need to know some stuff.

Atomic cut down the men's plate without changing the BSL markings.

Thanks for the picture.

 

Wow, Atomic sure seems to do some lovely things...eek.gif  My boot sole length is 339mm.  I used the holes marked appropriately to mount the bindings to the plate (I think they were marked 300-340 or 300-350, can't remember).  However, when sliding the heel piece into position, I had to use the marking for 330mm on the strap in order to get the heel piece into the right position.

 

Your fix looks fine for 1mm of play.  For my 5mm though, it would really tip my soles forward a lot.  I wonder if I can fabricate a shim to go into the top of the heel cup?  Then the sole of the boot could sit flat on the ski.  The shape/texture of the shim would be more critical for the binding to function correctly in this case, I would imagine.

 

Since these bindings are subject to the Atomic recall, I checked with them and they said they're still honoring it.  So I plan to take them to a dealer to get the heel unit replaced.  With any luck, the replacement unit might not have this problem?  Or is that too much to hope for? rolleyes.gif  It really surprises me that a manufacturer would make something with this many problems.  Don't they try the darn things out before they put them on the market???  Yet another trimuph of the profit motive.  Sigh....

post #16 of 29
Thread Starter 

<accidental post, sorry>


Edited by renenkel - 11/28/12 at 7:08am
post #17 of 29

That is one of the failure modes for the 412 binding-failure to click in. They are defective, but to my knowledge Atomic will only replace the 1998-2002 date code units. I actually had a replacement unit fail just as you are describing. The second failure mode is the rear heel cup cracking which is I have experienced less of. The 614 units are more durable and have less issues.

post #18 of 29
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by RobertRS View Post

That is one of the failure modes for the 412 binding-failure to click in. They are defective, but to my knowledge Atomic will only replace the 1998-2002 date code units. I actually had a replacement unit fail just as you are describing. The second failure mode is the rear heel cup cracking which is I have experienced less of. The 614 units are more durable and have less issues.

That's good to know, thanks.  Mine is 2000, so it looks like they'll replace it, but from what you say the replacement I get may not be so hot either.... frown.gif

post #19 of 29

I HAVE THE EXACT PROBLEM BUT ITS ONLY ONE SKI SKI SHOP SAYS SPRING IS SHOT IN THE BACK THEY HAVE BEEN RECALLED TEN YEARS AGO BUT THERE IS NO REPLACEMENTS   I REALLY LOVE THE SKIS  BUT GETTING ANOTHER PAIR IS CHEAPER THAN NEW BINDINGS

post #20 of 29

Due to the Beta construction it is often not possible to mount other bindings on some these older Atomics. I tried to have PX 15s flat mounted on a pair of Heli Daddys and it couldn't be done.

post #21 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Castle Dave View Post

Due to the Beta construction it is often not possible to mount other bindings on some these older Atomics. I tried to have PX 15s flat mounted on a pair of Heli Daddys and it couldn't be done.

 

I flat mounted PX's on my Big Daddies.  I had to shave the lifter on the toe a little to fit into the channel.

 

 

OP:  That era of Atomic Bindings are POS.  Why would you even take the chance?

post #22 of 29

My only binding that ever broke was the Atomic Race 412.  Piece of crap... I wouldn't trust them! 

post #23 of 29

Your bindings are indeed cracked. If you take a steel punch and push the pin through the heel cup, you will see that they are cracked from the pressure that the pin puts on the plastic body.

 

DO NOT SHIM, SHAVE, GLUE or anything else all of you Magyvers.....take them to an Atomic dealer and they will send them back for new heel units.

 

AND DO NOT USE THEM till you do, they are unsafe.

 

Link to recall:  http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09077.html

 

I took mine into Pelican and am expecting them back this Friday. 

post #24 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Alt View Post

Your bindings are indeed cracked. If you take a steel punch and push the pin through the heel cup, you will see that they are cracked from the pressure that the pin puts on the plastic body.

 

Thanks for the explanation especially since the fault was not readily visible. Very impressive. My CR 412 heels just plain exploded so it was an easy diagnosis. Good luck with the new heels.

post #25 of 29

Just got the new heels! Being adventurous, I punched the pin out to compare what they changed in the design. From what I can tell it looks like the plastic is different and that there is a metal plate behind the plastic. I will trust these new heels but as with all bindings you need to treat them with care and always back them springs off before storing. Happy trails!

post #26 of 29
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by Markus Alt View PostYour bindings are indeed cracked. If you take a steel punch and push the pin through the heel cup, you will see that they are cracked from the pressure that the pin puts on the plastic body.
Originally Posted by Castle Dave View PostThanks for the explanation especially since the fault was not readily visible. Very impressive. My CR 412 heels just plain exploded so it was an easy diagnosis. Good luck with the new heels.

I already left mine at the dealer, so I couldn't check the pin, but certainly sounds plausible.  They didn't even argue with me and said they'd have a free replacement within a week smile.gif

post #27 of 29
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by Markus Alt View Post

I will trust these new heels but as with all bindings you need to treat them with care and always back them springs off before storing.

Interesting....that sounds like good advice.  I didn't know that.  Thanks for the tip.

post #28 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by renenkel View Post

I already left mine at the dealer, so I couldn't check the pin, but certainly sounds plausible.  They didn't even argue with me and said they'd have a free replacement within a week smile.gif


So, I know it's an old thread and all, but we never learned the outcome. Did the shop come through with the new heels? Did that solve the problem? Inquiring mind(s) want to know!

post #29 of 29

ATOMIC Race 412 bindings (and other similarly named 412 and 310 models) were recalled in 2009.  They are defective.  DO NOT USE THEM. 

Go To:  http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2009/Atomic-Skis-USA-Recalls-Ski-Bindings-Due-to-Unexpected-Release-Fall-Hazard/

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