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Catching edges-What makes a ski "hooky"?

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 

I changed from a Head Monster 78 to Head Rock n Roll 94 this year which was generally a very positive experience except for an increased tendency to catch an edge usually on fairly flat sections such as cut up traverses back to the lift.

 

I had the tips mildly detuned which didnt seem to make much difference. I know some of the problem was definitely my doing such as looking over my shoulder at merging trails but at other times it didnt seem to matter how far forward I was I  could still catch an edge if running fairly flat.

 

I realise this sounds pretty gaperish but I progressed a lot this year and basically skied all areas of the mountain at good speed with no real problems and far fewer falls than previous seasons.

 

I probably wouldnt bother posting this question except one such caught edge resulted in a backwards head slam onto hard snow and even with a helmet I have a black hole in my memory for about an hour after the event, an experience Im not keen to repeat.

 

Oh and I have custom fitted boots, footbeds and liners...

post #2 of 12

did this happen with any other skis you've tried? 

 

Are the bases flat with a truebar(just use a ruler)?  if they're overly concave, that maybe a reason they are catching edges,  You could benefit to go to a ski shop about chat with someone about it (they shouldn't be overly busy right now as the season hasn't kicked off yet). 

post #3 of 12
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by raytseng View Post

did this happen with any other skis you've tried? 

 

Are the bases flat with a truebar(just use a ruler)?  if they're overly concave, that maybe a reason they are catching edges,  You could benefit to go to a ski shop about chat with someone about it (they shouldn't be overly busy right now as the season hasn't kicked off yet). 

 


It certainly more frequent on these skis but I used to catch an occasional edge on the monsters as well but I guess that was  not unusual for my level at that time.

 

The skis are  at another location at the moment so I cant check for flatness but thanks for that tip and I'll follow it up.

 

Any chance boot canting/foot misalignment could be contributing? When my footbeds were fitted I asked about canting and they suggested that the custom footbeds should fix any alignment problems, wasn't totally convinced but they were meant to be experts??

 

Also  noticed on some poma  lifts I was having to constantly correct to keep a straight line?

 

I'm a long way from the nearest ski shop down here in Australia  but will certainly seek some advice when I get to Japan later this season.

 

thanks again

 

Maurice

post #4 of 12

Worst cases of hooking I've had have been due to bad tunes with both the tips and tails too sharp (notice that you said you've only mildly detuned tips).

 

I got some pretty interesting looks at Squaw last year when I was "detuning" tips and tails on some rentals on a rock next to the lift, as the skis would hook constantly. Priceless.

 

And you have to consider boots first, followed by custom fitting and then custom footbeds, canting and.......Oh, wait. Nevermind.

post #5 of 12
Last season I had the complete opposite problem that displayed itself while skiing on one ski. When skiing on one ski I could turn to the outside easier than to the inside on one side and the opposite on they other. I was going to a boot fitter to get new plate put on the bottom of my boots and had him check my alignment. He gave me a 1.5 degree shim and the problem went away. Since he was at the base of the mountain I was able to go try it before he made it permanent. Incredible difference.

Another thing to consider is look at the entire edge control chain; base flatness, base edge angle, how far up the edge they are sharpened, binding attachment (accurate, secure, canted etc), boot fit and alignment, and your body alignment.

Does it only happen on one side or with one ski?

Though when it happened on your other skis you were blaming you're level of skiing, that doesn't mean it wasn't the same issue as you're seeing now.

I think that if you have to detune your skis so the issue goes away, provided your base edges aren't set to some crazy angle (like .5 or flat), there is probably something else going on. Detuning usually just masks the symptom.

Also consider that just because whey of we're fitted, you didn't need canting, doesn't mean that you still don't. I previously had been to the same fitter and didn't need a cant. Things change after you change so you might at a later time need one. For me it was acl reconstruction. It could be from weight loss or strength training. Might even be that the fitter missed it first time around.

I believe the footbed is to get the ankle in neutral. If canting is needed, I don't think the footbed can address this.

Good luck,
Ken
post #6 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by mauricem View Post



It certainly more frequent on these skis but I used to catch an occasional edge on the monsters as well but I guess that was  not unusual for my level at that time.

The skis are  at another location at the moment so I cant check for flatness but thanks for that tip and I'll follow it up.

Any chance boot canting/foot misalignment could be contributing? When my footbeds were fitted I asked about canting and they suggested that the custom footbeds should fix any alignment problems, wasn't totally convinced but they were meant to be experts??

Also  noticed on some poma  lifts I was having to constantly correct to keep a straight line?

I'm a long way from the nearest ski shop down here in Australia  but will certainly seek some advice when I get to Japan later this season.

thanks again

Maurice

M, custom foot ends will better support your feet and allow them to work properly in the boot. They often will not alter major alignment issues. Canting is related to hoe the shaft of your lower leg aligns with the cuff of your boot. Grinding or shimming the soles of your boots will address alignment issues that will create a laterally neutral stance and flat skis when running in a straight line. It sounds to me that one, you either have a ski tune issue (bases are concaved, the skis 'railed'), or significant alignment issues that will require shimming or sole beveling. Unless things have changed significantly, Japan is/was pretty far behind the curve on these services.
post #7 of 12

It might be worth it to post this in "Ask The Boot Guys" to see if there are some simple tests you can do to figure it out yourself. 

post #8 of 12

   Could be base bevel of the ski or burrs on the edges. If your skis feel overly sharp it could be a burr vs a crisp edge. A ski that is flat, no base edge bevel will ski weird also.

post #9 of 12

Sounds like it is partially added width of this ski that you are not accustomed to.

 

Head factory tunes on thier wider skis is the worst, and if anything has way too much base bevel. Your skis are probably floating around on the flat and then add the addtitional width of the ski and you

can understand the p[otential result!

 

I would also advise against attempting to ride a FLAT ski with any current shaped boards. If you keep 'em up on edge and are locked on the edge thety won't float around.

 

Have them stoneground, a 1 degree side edge and 2 or 3 degree (Mine Mojo 94's have a 1/3)  and the ski will dramatically change it's personality for the better.

 

EVen after 2 stone grinds, I couldn't get a true 1 degree in some spots, but they are 1000 times better than new!

post #10 of 12

Do you have a really good tuning shop anywhere near you?  Specifically a place that specializes in tuning.  They could tell you

instantly if your skis should be reground due to being concave or if you simply need more base bevel in the tips and tails. 

 

Most likely it's your canting especially if you only really notice in on flat sections or when the ski is flat, is that correct? 

 

Usually if there is an issue with base bevel or the ski is concave you would feel it more in the transition from one turn to the

next when the skis are coming underneath you.   If concave or really flat they can be hard to pivot or hook up right away when

transitioning from one edge to the next. 

 

I can tell you from personal experience when you're not aligned correctly and have to much edge (center of your knee mass falls

outside of center) the skis can do very unpredictable things especially when trying to ride a flat ski.  In a haste to get new boots

set up for the season I tried to eyeball my alignment and totally over canted myself.  That first day was a miserable experience, I

caught so many edges the skis were all over the place.

post #11 of 12

  I would most definitely check the bases for flatness, all the way from tip to tail...an excessively cupped (concave) ski can give even the best skiers problems. A race buddy of mine has a pair of elan wc gs's that were basically unskiable. If you see a lot of light under the true bar get em flattened and put a 1 & 2 on them.

   

   Also, the factory base & side edge bevels usually don't go all the way up to the tip and tail (your base and side could be at 0&90 for the first few cm's), if the bases appear to be flat, this could be the problem (excessive detuning is a thing of the past, don't over do it!) Were they tuned by the shop where you bought them?

 

  Lastly, like other posters above, I would check your canting...

 

  Hope this helpssmile.gif

post #12 of 12

It's always been confusing to me why Head consistently year in and year out produces the lamest tunes and QC on bases of any major and many indies, while Kastle, made in the same factory, has about the best. th_dunno-1[1].gif Anyway, yeah, get them tuned to 1/2 or so, and bases checked for flatness. OTOH, isn't the R&R a mild rocker? Should be less likely to hook, not more. Decent possibility that it's not the bases but your technique (running too flat in chop or straightening up in the middle of an initiation or other varieties of moving COM backward can all produce a "catch"). Sorta like over at TGR, bemusing how common solution for hooking or catching always is to detune the h*ll out of the ski, rather than connect the dots between smear turns from the tail and how an under-pressured shovel, regardless of shape, will respond.

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