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# Turn mechanics 101

Rotary push-off vs. fulcrum turning.  Understanding the difference could be the most important concept to understand as a new ski instructor!?  If we get this right all the pieces fall together nicely, miss it and the path becomes cloudy and disconnected.

sequential vs. simultaneous leg rotation

stemming vs. releasing

Thoughts?....

Bud,

Can you give a quick def of what you mean by fulcrum turning. When I have encountered the term before it referred to a particular type of poor wedge turn.

fom

Entirely depends upon the turn.

Gliding Wedge Turn - simultaneous leg turning on opposing edges with release to start, tails take a wider path then the tips.

Wedge Christie Turn - sequential leg turn starting on opposing edges moving to corresponding edges with release to start, tails start outside ski tail follows tip, inside ski tail starts by taking a shorter path then moves in line with the tip

Stem Christie Turn (not part of a typical progression, but can help someone who struggles to commit to the top of a parallel turn and also a great tool in some situations) - sequential leg turning starting on opposing edges moving to corresponding edges with a stem to start, outside ski starts by taking a wider path then follows tip, inside ski follows tip

Parallel Turn - sequential leg turning starting and staying on corresponding edges with release to start, tails follow tips through whole turn (in an open parallel the tails follow tips with less edge angle to allow for more slide = more friction = slower speed, a dynamic parallel the tails follow the tips on high edge angle for less slide = less friction = more speed = trenches and glory at the bar.

Why do we persist on using big complicated words and lots of jargon. That is the #1 hinderance to new comers to teaching. Many first year instructors I have watched teach give better lessons then the vets because they only know words that are easy for them & students to come up with a common definition for. I know what I think rotary push-off means. I have no clue what fulcrum turning is and I've been at this game and training instructors how to do this for several years. K.I.S.S. people!!

I believe Bud means Independant Leg Steering. Fulcrum turning is the mechanism for it that Joubert defined, where each leg provides support, or a fulcrum, for the other.

Nate, your wedge christie and stem christie are looking the same when I imagine those descriptions. I'm thinking a wedge christie would go just like the parallel turn? ...though I have had it explained csia does a wedge christie like a stem christie and a glide christie same as a parallel turn, but I could have that wrong.

Chris defined the fulcrum mechanism well!  The big difference muscularly is the simultaneous twisting in the same direction vs. sequential twisting of the legs in a one then the other manner.

A wedge or wedge christy, even though the skis turn at different rates, should ideally still use the mechanics of a parallel turn which is the simultaneous turning of both skis in the same direction, only at different rates.  When we demonstrate or teach with a default sequential stepping or stemming or weight transfer, we are ingraining less than ideal mechanics and demonstrate that we don't understand the goal of teaching expert movements in lower level turning.

My point here is to help clarify the common thread,  mechanics of good Centerline turning.  I don't believe it does depend on the turn as Nate suggests, or at least for the turns in our PSIA exam demonstrations.  Certainly we need to understand and be able to demonstrate to either side of the Centerline with different skill biases, but until we have strong reference mechanics to sway away from, we are pissing in the wind.

Nate, these terms are not new and have been used since the early 70's, they have just been lost in the newer generations of instructors and coaches.  Nothing complicated and can not think of a more clear and concise way to highlight the mechanical differences in these two core skiing movements.

I disagree that centerline wedge and wedge christie turns should begin or end with sequential movements.  Even though the skis are turning at different rates, the internal muscular efforts should be of simultaneous or braquage type movement.  If we examine many level I and II candidates and see sequential rotary push-off movements in their parallel initiations, I believe it can be traced back to this technique deficiency which was never grasped in their wedge turn mechanics.  Again, isn't our goal to use a wedge to teach expert movements and skills?

If we look at the article on wedge christies written by Barnes here on epicski, we will see the wedge christy should in fact begin with simultaneous movements, though obviously with different tasks for each leg/ski.  The rotary impulse should still be a braquage or fulcrum type movement (a sloppy pivot slip perhaps).

Edited by bud heishman - 11/7/12 at 9:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateteachski

Why do we persist on using big complicated words and lots of jargon. That is the #1 hinderance to new comers to teaching. Many first year instructors I have watched teach give better lessons then the vets because they only know words that are easy for them & students to come up with a common definition for. I know what I think rotary push-off means. I have no clue what fulcrum turning is and I've been at this game and training instructors how to do this for several years. K.I.S.S. people!!

Nate,  I guess it doesn't really matter what we call it as long as the instructors understand the difference and understand the goal of the "Centerline" demo mechanics. How would you suggest to communicate the differences I suggested here?  Perhaps there is a learning opportunity here and I do not mean that in a condescending way Nate!  The easiest way to illustrate the differences between rotary push-off and fulcrum turning is a stem christie vs. pivot slips.  Pivot slips are pure braquage or fulcrum turning.  Fulcrum turning is independent but simultaneous leg steering. The DIRT may vary.  A rotary push-off mechanism relies on a platform to push from where a fulcrum mechanism involves a release of resistance to permit tips to turn.  One is an offensive tips GO down the hill movement the other is a braking, don't go there movement.

From linked pivot slips, simply blending in a bit of edge angle and/or tip pressure will cause turning.  Blending out the pivoting and in more edging will transform the pivot slips into basic parallel turning and continuing along that continuum into carved turning.  My point is this rotary mechanic is the root of our centerline demos from wedge turns to dynamic parallel turns, yet many instructors miss this important distinction.  When I see instructors demonstrating wedge turning with big active weight shift or stemming a tail out to begin a basic christy turn, I cringe a bit.  When I see the habitual sequential turn initiation I know this fulcrum turning mechanism has not yet been grasped.

If we simply think about "eliminating resistance to turning" rather than "adding deflection to create a direction change" we will find the essence of the PSIA Centerline demonstrations.  Think about what keeps our tips from turning down the fall line and eliminate that resistance so both feet can steer into and out of the fall line.  A wedge turn should be a pivot slip in sheep's clothing rather than a stem christy on steroids.  Tips go in rather than tails going out!

I know this is probably aimed at fellow instructors, but to me it's like trying to read quantum physics!

I really can't follow it, I took lessons for most of my childhood but never encountered so complicated instructions. Is this really necessary to explain how to execute a turn?
I'm really asking out of ignorance here, it all seems so overly complicated.  I've always found skiing to be a fairly easy concept, apply pressure to downhill ski to grip, release pressure to free the skis, apply pressure to new downhill ski.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzamp

I know this is probably aimed at fellow instructors, but to me it's like trying to read quantum physics!

I really can't follow it, I took lessons for most of my childhood but never encountered so complicated instructions. Is this really necessary to explain how to execute a turn?

I'm really asking out of ignorance here, it all seems so overly complicated.  I've always found skiing to be a fairly easy concept, apply pressure to downhill ski to grip, release pressure to free the skis, apply pressure to new downhill ski.

jzamp,
If you are in a wedge going down the fall line on easy terrain, and you want to initiate a turn to the left, you have a couple options:

Apply more pressure to your right ski.

Or

Release the inside edge on your left ski.

One over powers by creating more resistance and the other embraces gravity and freedom from resistance.

If new skiers get this right, they don't have to re-learn how to turn when they get to more advanced skiing, especially carving.

In order for the new skiers to get it right, the instructor has to understand it. They don't have to bring the complicated words and theories to the class, just know it. If they don't, they are just regurgitating what someone else said and without a to real understanding, can be limiting to them and their students.

The rotary motion should be happening under the foot and not at the tip and tail. You can still turn using the latter method but that is the adding deflection Bud is talking about. The former is eliminating resistance.

Ken

jzamp,

I understand your frustration and agree with you for the consumer, but this discussion is aimed more toward instructors and trainers of instructors who must understand the finer details of turn mechanics.  Just like your doctor went to school for years to amass lots of knowledge about the human body, he/she doesn't share all the technical mumbo jumbo with the patient but hopefully understands how to diagnose and treat what ails you based on a sound understanding of the body's systems!  Both the doctor and the ski instructor must be skilled understanding cause and effect relationships.  All this doesn't get communicated to the patient/student it just improves the product offered.

Fulcrum turning does not work in the way many think.

Good discussion starter, Bud! The distinction succinctly summarizes many of the things we've discussed over the years here. And contrary to what some may think, it is not so much technical as it a global "gestalt" black-and-white distinction that speaks more to a skier's intent than to his or her skill level. It is not a subtle difference. One does not evolve into the other through practice and developing skill. Although great skiers can and do both, depending on need or desire, the distinction defines (afflicts?) skiers at all levels of skill. I have long held that true expert skiers are offensive by default--they glide when they can, as a habit, and brake when they have to--while the vast majority of recreational skiers are defensive by default--their techniques, their "turns," are habitually made to control speed directly through braking. For most skiers, the shift from one to the other (from edgeset-pushoff to release-glide) is the key to "breaking out of the intermediate rut," and it involves a genuine paradigm shift (not just "more practice"). Expert skiers--and skiers of any skill level on the road to becoming expert skiers--habitually ski offensively, seeking glide, or what Georges Joubert (Skiing, an Art, a Technique, and other classic works on technique) termed "glissement." Most skiers, unfortunately, learn to brake and then just get better and better (more and more skillful) at defensive, braking skiing.

Grasping--"grokking"--this distinction is, for most recreational skiers, the greatest single thing you can do to further your technique in skiing, no matter your skill level. Experts do not just ski "better" than most skiers, they ski fundamentally differently. But the difference is available to any level of skier. To learn to ski like an expert, you must begin by thinking like one. It will transform your skiing instantly, globally, and profoundly.

The difference lives in the technical distinction Bud has described, but again, it is not just about technique!

Here are a few more bullets to further the discussion:
• Release edge(s) and guide skis vs. set edges and pushoff
• Positive (into the turn) movements vs. Negative (away from the turn) movements
• Turn vs. Brake
• Tips into turn vs. Tails out
• Glide/Carve vs. intentional skid
• Offensive vs. Defensive
• "Go that way" vs. "Stop going this way"
• Control Direction vs. Control Speed
• Speed control from Tactics (line) vs. speed control from Technique (skidding/braking)
• Play with gravity vs. fight against gravity
• Skiing a Slow Line Fast vs. skiing a Fast Line Slow
• ....

Go!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman

jzamp,

I understand your frustration and agree with you for the consumer, but this discussion is aimed more toward instructors and trainers of instructors who must understand the finer details of turn mechanics.  Just like your doctor went to school for years to amass lots of knowledge about the human body, he/she doesn't share all the technical mumbo jumbo with the patient but hopefully understands how to diagnose and treat what ails you based on a sound understanding of the body's systems!  Both the doctor and the ski instructor must be skilled understanding cause and effect relationships.  All this doesn't get communicated to the patient/student it just improves the product offered.

Bud,
I understand this is aimed at pro instructors, but since I'm curious by nature, I try to understand things above my level especially if they are related to something I do/care about.

This was just really hard to comprehend, as in visualize the movements you are describing and linking them with my skiing experience, that's all!
Thanks for sharing the knowledge!

Stay with it, Jzamp! Do NOT try to get too technical about this--the answer does not live there. It is primarily a question of INTENT. Intent dictates technique. Yes, there are technical ramifications to it that instructors and other technically-curious skiers will seek to understand. But if you focus on understanding and absorbing the intent, the technique will follow naturally. All skiers can, and will, show the distinction that Bud has raised, regardless of their technical skill level. Beginners do either one poorly, but will improve at whichever they practice--dictated by their intent (offensive vs. defensive, or any of the other pairs in the bullets in my previous post). Experts do both well, and choose between them based on need or preference.

NO ONE will ski with offensive technique when their intent is defensive, no matter how much skill or understanding they may have. Here's a hint: visualize, or observe, your basic walking movements at the moment you decide to change direction and veer toward a new "target"--as when a friend you want to see calls to you a direction other than the one you're walking in. Compare those movements to your movements when someone you don't like, or someone you owe money to or something--someone you want to avoid--calls to you, and your immediate intent is to back off or recoil away. The difference is like that!

And stay tuned--there will be visuals....

Best regards,
Bob
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzamp

Bud,
I understand this is aimed at pro instructors, but since I'm curious by nature, I try to understand things above my level especially if they are related to something I do/care about.

This was just really hard to comprehend, as in visualize the movements you are describing and linking them with my skiing experience, that's all!
Thanks for sharing the knowledge!

Thank you for participating and having the curiosity to ask questions!  You are the kind of skier who can gain much from Epicski and improve your skiing because of this curiosity!  Welcome!  It is as Bob suggests a paradigm shift in thinking for many but this discovery will profoundly change your skiing for the better!  Caution: this discovery may cause an impulse to share what you have learned with others and then you find yourself sucked into ski instruction and spending your weekends and Holidays in the mountains sharing your passion with others.

Thanks Bob for the great posts above!

The mechanics match the intent for sure!  In fact:

Technique = simultaneous independent leg steering, release rather than add deflection

Equipment = aligned for equal access to both edges and a balanced fore/aft

Psychology = offensive "GO" intent vs. defensive braking intent

Physiology = fit to ski

All add up to good skiing performance at any level.

Another great thread.  Thank you Bud ,Bob and to all who contributed.   The time could not be better.

So here my take on this.   All turn use the same movements the different is in amount of resistance the inside ski has due the how cleanly the the new inside ski is released.   The more the movement to GO in that direction the closer we come to the perfect turn/ craved turn.  Am I on the right track????

Hank

Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC

If you are in a wedge going down the fall line on easy terrain, and you want to initiate a turn to the left, you have a couple options:
Apply more pressure to your right ski.
Or
Release the inside edge on your left ski.
One over powers by creating more resistance and the other embraces gravity and freedom from resistance.
If new skiers get this right, they don't have to re-learn how to turn when they get to more advanced skiing, especially carving.

Originally Posted by Bob Barnes

And contrary to what some may think, it is not so much technical as it a global "gestalt" black-and-white distinction that speaks more to a skier's intent than to his or her skill level. *** For most skiers, the shift from one to the other (from edgeset-pushoff to release-glide) is the key to "breaking out of the intermediate rut," and it involves a genuine paradigm shift (not just "more practice"). *** Grasping--"grokking"--this distinction is, for most recreational skiers, the greatest single thing you can do to further your technique in skiing, no matter your skill level. Experts do not just ski "better" than most skiers, they ski fundamentally differently. But the difference is available to any level of skier. To learn to ski like an expert, you must begin by thinking like one. It will transform your skiing instantly, globally, and profoundly.

Very interesting discussion.  I had to read these posts a number of times, but I think I get it.  For a non-instructor such as myself (and evidently for instructors too), the language used to explain these concepts to students is confusing.  However, as someone who has made the leap over the past several years from an intermediate to the beginnings of an advanced skier, and as someone who watches with frustration my wife and others try to grasp the basic elements of getting down a bunny hill without killing herself or others, and as I watch my very cautious daughter staying with a push-off wedge, the discussion and distinction rings particularly true.
As Bob states, shifting from a defensive push-off to a more "offensive" (and scary and counterintuitive) release into and across the fall line, can be a game changer.  It was not that long ago that I would be terrified when I ventured onto the steep black slopes.  I would traverse in one direction, looking for a "good" place to turn, often ending up at the edge of the woods.  Looking down a steep, often icy slope, where the consequences of falling would not be fun, is scary to say the least.  It seems to me that the same fear applies to beginners wedging down a bunny slope, who do not have the skills or knowledge to control their speed or direction.  In other words, the intimidation of an intermediate leaning into the hill on a black diamond dreading the next turn and a beginner accelerating down a green in a wedge are pretty similar.
Teaching the intermediate to overcome that fear and release is a no-brainer if that person wants to improve.  That person already probably enjoys skiing and wants to get better.  I also agree with what Ken said about the long-term benefits of teaching those fundamentals to a beginner, though I would think that, if not done well, has the potential turn some beginners off to skiing since it is so counter-intuitive and scary.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts and experiences on how to teach this to beginners--particularly beginner adults, who have more fears (and farther to fall) than children.  Is it better to have a scared adult learner start with pushing off and being able to control direction (and begin to have fun), rather than asking a fearful adult to essentially "trust fall" to learn proper simultaneous mechanics?  The feeling of a flat ski, turning into the fall line is quite unnerving, even in a wedge on a green slope. I'm guessing different strokes for different folks.
My "ah ha" moments came when I started to understand the various components of skiing and learned about releasing edges, flattening the skis, and "steering."  Understanding the basic concepts isn't really that complicated, but the lingo and the way it is taught often is.  It was only after starting to read about skiing, and taking some good lessons, that I was able to change the way I thought about turns and using both the edges and flat skis.  Personally, I like learning from books and found the toolbox concepts in Mark Elling's All Mountain Skier to be helpful.  I also started going to two-day Amateur Ski Instructors Association programs, which greatly helped.  (I've also taken lessons with not-so-great instructors, who can't really translate what the purposes of doing certain drills are.)  Many drills I've seen seem to try to get at similar concepts, but some work better for different people, and some times different things just click.  At an ASIA program two years ago, my instructor (the truly excellent Don Boyce, ski school director at Belleayre) had us skiing a few runs trying to get us to make smeared, skiddy, flat ski turns.  After a few runs, however, almost without realizing it, the whole group was skiing really dynamically and carving beautiful turns, principally because we were getting more comfortable with the release.
Anyway, I didn't mean to go on so long, but thanks for the opportunity to listen and learn.  To sum up, I really have two questions: (1) How do you get a beginner, particularly a fearful adult, to grasp and execute this concept, and (2) How can these concepts be described and explained better to both beginners and intermediates (for example, I found the term "steering" to be very difficult to grasp, since it has a very specific use in skiing, but a more general meaning to the general population.

Exactly my point here!  Many instructors make the fatal beginner lesson error by introducing active weight shifts to turn, and "slide the tail out and stand on it" directives.  This skier is doomed to the defensive technique of plateaued intermediates thanks to the ignorance or laziness of their mentor.

Now, if the instructors understand some basic turn mechanics and how to nurture the "GO" intent we will see profoundly different results.  Unfortunately even instructors that know better sometimes give up too early and resort to these defensive braking instructions.  I believe much more time and effort needs to be placed on this exact focus with new instructors.  Better understand why and how to use a wedge turn and we are teaching expert movements from the very beginning!

Teach skiers to embrace the acceleration and the letting go of their grip on the earth!  Enjoy gravity's pull then control the line to manage speed.  Remove resistance to turning rather than try to overcome it!  This way we pave the path to expert skiing through intent and technique!

Edited by bud heishman - 11/9/12 at 9:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes

... the moment you decide to change direction and veer toward a new "target"--as when a friend you want to see calls to you a direction other than the one you're walking in. Compare those movements to your movements when someone you don't like, or someone you owe money to or something--someone you want to avoid--calls to you, and your immediate intent is to back off or recoil away.

Nov 9, 2012

Hi Bob:

I like how you told the Eastern Ski Tuneup group in 2006 as to "when a gorgeous curvy lady/suave dashing man beckons you".  Have a great season and hopefully, I'll be able to ski with you again soon.

Think snow,

CP

Great thread and food for thought. As I see it, the notion of teaching these efficient mechanics as opposed to a defensive platform push off does not neccesitate increased fear or insecurity for the learner if from the outset the instructor is thoughtful and understands the tactical as well as technical implications and is conscientious enough to apply them effectively. It may take a little more thought and definitely requires a good understanding but we should be doing that anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman

Exactly my point here!  Many instructors make the fatal beginner lesson error by introducing active weight shifts to turn, and "slide the tail out and stand on it" directives.  This skier is doomed to the defensive technique of plateaued intermediates thanks to the ignorance or laziness of their mentor.

Now, if the instructors understand some basic turn mechanics and how to nurture the "GO" intent we will see profoundly different results.  Unfortunately even instructors that know better sometimes give up too early and resort to these defensive braking instructions.  I believe much more time and effort needs to be placed on this exact focus with new instructors.  Better understand why and how to use a wedge turn and we are teaching expert movements from the very beginning!

Teach skiers to embrace the acceleration and the letting go of their grip on the earth!  Enjoy gravity's pull then control the line to manage speed.  Remove resistance to turning rather than try to overcome it!  This way we pave the path to expert skiing through intent and technique!

Bud, I agree 100%.  However, it is one heck of a challenge!  I have had a pair of swivel discs at our ski school desk for two years now and demonstrate Independent Leg Steering (ILS, fulcrum, Braquage) at every opportunity to both instructors and students.  Very few get on the first time and turn using ILS.  Even once demonstrated and discussed, it apparently is a difficult thing to take out on the hill.  Rotary mechanisms are not well understood and they have to be in order to uinderstand what the opportunity is.  Two weeks ago I "presented" rotary mechanisms to all our instructors with a focus on ILS and rotation to depict the characteristics, pros and cons of each.  I had 20 minutes.  Yet I doubt many will take it to the hill the way you describe, for their own skiing and their students.  I discussed this with our ski school director and suggested we video our instructors making wedge turns so we could have a movement analysis session using their demos.  He did that but someone in the media department recorded over the footage before we could get to it.  So we will try again this year.  I am advocating instructor clinics on this very topic as well and have some hope we will do that.  I agree with you Bud, but the task of getting the appropriate understanding  past the "this is what has always worked for me" habit is proving to be a daunting one.

I like your progression of starting with the pivot slip and going from there.  A problem however.  The people we are trying to change cannot do pivit slips!  without rotation!  or with a release!

Are there some other exercises that can help us get in touch with ILS?  I mean, besides wedge and wedge christie turns? (Which work pretty well actually.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman

Teach skiers to embrace the acceleration and the letting go of their grip on the earth!  Enjoy gravity's pull then control the line to manage speed.

I'm all for it, but can't see this working with my wife!

Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC

jzamp,
If you are in a wedge going down the fall line on easy terrain, and you want to initiate a turn to the left, you have a couple options:
Apply more pressure to your right ski.
Or
Release the inside edge on your left ski.
One over powers by creating more resistance and the other embraces gravity and freedom from resistance.
If new skiers get this right, they don't have to re-learn how to turn when they get to more advanced skiing, especially carving.
In order for the new skiers to get it right, the instructor has to understand it. They don't have to bring the complicated words and theories to the class, just know it. If they don't, they are just regurgitating what someone else said and without a to real understanding, can be limiting to them and their students.
The rotary motion should be happening under the foot and not at the tip and tail. You can still turn using the latter method but that is the adding deflection Bud is talking about. The former is eliminating resistance.
Ken

Apply more to the right ski, a million dollars...

Release the inside edge on your left, another million dollars...

BOTH, at the same time??!!??!

Priceless!!!!!

P.s. For everything else, use your debit/credit card...

@ Snowhawk, I agree it is an ongoing challenge but one worth pursuing!

@ADKS,  Remember, using offensive skiing does not mean speeding out of control!  The key is to keep the terrain very flat and encourage embracing the short periods of acceleration as we turn our tips down the fall line then continuing through the turn until we have reached a comfortable speed then turning the tips into the fall line again.  If we keep the terrain easy and non threatening for the beginner until they find themselves looking for more speed we are on our way!

@ zentune, Not quite.  Applying more pressure to the right ski is an active weight shift and a move away from the intended direction.  Conversely, twisting both feet to the left which causes a passive weight shift to the right ski because of the turning forces created are the expert movements.  If we lead the turn initiation with releasing the resistance to turning to the left by releasing the left ski's grip on the snow while simultaneously twisting the right ski to the left we are developing ILS and creating offensive movements.  The weight shift occurs instantaneously yet is the result of creating turning forces which pull the weight toward the outside of the turn just like turning the steering wheel in your car to the left instantly causes a weight shift to the right side tires.  Yes, your method certainly works, but understanding the subtle but profound differences in cause and effect can lead one to offensive vs. defensive skiing movements.

Another way to play with this concept of taking away resistance to turning rather than adding something to the outside ski to overcome the deflection of the inside ski is to imagine cruising down the fall line in a gliding wedge and simply lifting the left ski off the snow.  This instantly removes any deflection from the inside ski and passively shifts the weight to the right ski which begins a turn to the left.  Now how we lift the ski is key!  Lift the left ski without any movement of your head toward the right ski!  Allow your gliding wedge to pick up some speed then collapse the left leg as if it was a balloon filled with air and you just stuck a pin in it!  This causes and immediate yet passive weight shift.  Conversely, if from a gliding straight run wedge you move your head and torso out over your right foot to remove weight from your left ski, you have made an "active" weight shift.  This is a move in the opposite direction of the intended turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman

@ Snowhawk, I agree it is an ongoing challenge but one worth pursuing!

@ADKS,  Remember, using offensive skiing does not mean speeding out of control!  The key is to keep the terrain very flat and encourage embracing the short periods of acceleration as we turn our tips down the fall line then continuing through the turn until we have reached a comfortable speed then turning the tips into the fall line again.  If we keep the terrain easy and non threatening for the beginner until they find themselves looking for more speed we are on our way!

I

@ zentune, Not quite.  Applying more pressure to the right ski is an active weight shift and a move away from the intended direction.  Conversely, twisting both feet to the left which causes a passive weight shift to the right ski because of the turning forces created are the expert movements.  If we lead the turn initiation with releasing the resistance to turning to the left by releasing the left ski's grip on the snow while simultaneously twisting the right ski to the left we are developing ILS and creating offensive movements.  The weight shift occurs instantaneously yet is the result of creating turning forces which pull the weight toward the outside of the turn just like turning the steering wheel in your car to the left instantly causes a weight shift to the right side tires.  Yes, your method certainly works, but understanding the subtle but profound differences in cause and effect can lead one to offensive vs. defensive skiing movements.

Another way to play with this concept of taking away resistance to turning rather than adding something to the outside ski to overcome the deflection of the inside ski is to imagine cruising down the fall line in a gliding wedge and simply lifting the left ski off the snow.  This instantly removes any deflection from the inside ski and passively shifts the weight to the right ski which begins a turn to the left.  Now how we lift the ski is key!  Lift the left ski without any movement of your head toward the right ski!  Allow your gliding wedge to pick up some speed then collapse the left leg as if it was a balloon filled with air and you just stuck a pin in it!  This causes and immediate yet passive weight shift.  Conversely, if from a gliding straight run wedge you move your head and torso out over your right foot to remove weight from your left ski, you have made an "active" weight shift.  This is a move in the opposite direction of the intended turn.

Of course you're right,ultimately..when talking about wedge turns  I stupidly took the discussion too far into the "future", when such a move can, under the right circumstances, be incredibly dynamic/powerful...sorry for getting of topic

Great discussion.

Someday I hope you address the role of unweighting.

We are going back to the future here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine

Great discussion.

Someday I hope you address the role of unweighting.

We are going back to the future here!

OMG...I LOVE to unweight Maybe a different thread?? It is after all an.....un"loaded question"

Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune

Of course you're right,ultimately..when talking about wedge turns  I stupidly took the discussion too far into the "future", when such a move can, under the right circumstances, be incredibly dynamic/powerful...sorry for getting of topic

Same movement apply in the future!  That's the beauty of the idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman

Same movement apply in the future!  That's the beauty of the idea.

Pivoting is one thing....high end carving?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22b1agZTojc  To my eye, actively lengthening new outside while actively collapsing new inside with some sweet inclination

P.s. Most definitely NOT trying to step on toes or challenge anyone here though...you guys have some very impressive knowledge that you articulate quite well--wish I could say the same for myself...

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