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Tread Wear on Snow Tires - Page 3

post #61 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post


I recall a hitch ball eek.gif breaking loose and rocketing through  a windshield in my old 4-wheeling days.  Think before you try when negotiating a recovery.  There are some hookups where a hook is best and others where a loop is preferred.

 

This is actually one of those absolutes in recovery - never use a tow strap with metal hooks and don't attach a d-ring/clevis unless the anchor point on the vehicle is bombproof like a tow hitch.  And never use a hitch ball, that is insane.

 

This is what it looks like when metal on the end of a strap comes back through the vehicle (in this case a d-ring attached to a heavy duty recovery strap - the driver apparently kept his head because he was leaning over to look back).  Recovery straps cost a little bit more, and a 2" width 20K load rating is sufficient for most uses.  Leave the tow strap in the garage so you aren't tempted to use it.

 

 

1000

 

What you want:

 

 

1000

post #62 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toecutter View Post

I find slush to be the worst driving condition of all.  It doesn't matter what tire I run, if I hit slush my car wants to break loose.

 

That's the compromise of improving dry road handling and ice performance by packing the tread and reducing lug spacing.  Kind of hard to care for slush on a performance car, though, so why bother?  You are already considering tire speed rating as a primary factor and you are never going to get lug void spacing to positively correlate to speed rating.

 

I find slush to be a non-event, but I think my tires are rated to 75 mph and terms like 'squirm' are completely overwhelmed by basic NVH characteristics biggrin.gif

post #63 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by NayBreak View Post

 

That's the compromise of improving dry road handling and ice performance by packing the tread and reducing lug spacing.  Kind of hard to care for slush on a performance car, though, so why bother?  You are already considering tire speed rating as a primary factor and you are never going to get lug void spacing to positively correlate to speed rating.

 

I find slush to be a non-event, but I think my tires are rated to 75 mph and terms like 'squirm' are completely overwhelmed by basic NVH characteristics biggrin.gif

 

I have more than one car.  You're referring to my fast car but it also applies to my other car with the traction tires.  3" deep slush makes any car want to hydroplane, whereas it doesn't do that on snow and ice. When you encounter slush you have to slow down more than you would with snow and ice because slush is like thick water.


Edited by Toecutter - 11/10/12 at 3:40am
post #64 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by NayBreak View Post

 

This is actually one of those absolutes in recovery - never use a tow strap with metal hooks and don't attach a d-ring/clevis unless the anchor point on the vehicle is bombproof like a tow hitch.  And never use a hitch ball, that is insane.

 

This is what it looks like when metal on the end of a strap comes back through the vehicle (in this case a d-ring attached to a heavy duty recovery strap - the driver apparently kept his head because he was leaning over to look back).  Recovery straps cost a little bit more, and a 2" width 20K load rating is sufficient for most uses.  Leave the tow strap in the garage so you aren't tempted to use it.


 

hijack.gif

 

That's probably true for off road and especially mud with vehicles designed for off road use.  When one gets stuck, it's REALLY stuck and can require massive winch strength to break it loose.  However, the force required to help a 4 cylinder AWD vehicle drag another out of a drift along side of the road isn't really any greater (or herky jerky) than what happens towing.  I guess it depends on just how stuck or tricky the "recovery" is on what is safe or unsafe to use or attach to.  I like the suggestion of wrapping a blanket around whatever you're using to soak up any SNAP should it come loose.  But, if my wife's Sentra is caught up in the 18" of crud along side the street I'll probably still use the "tow strap" and Forester to tug her back on to the road.  I wouldn't use a tow strap or Forester to attempt to bring it back up out of a ditch 30 feet down a hill.  That's certainly a job for a real 4 wheel drive truck with a winch or better strap.

 

hijack2.gif

post #65 of 102

"Any tire will work adequately well on dry pavement."

 

I can't agree with that statement. (well maybe adequately but not well)

 

Winter tires are generally designed to do 3 things

 

1) better performance on dry roads in cold weather - A good winter tire will stop in 30% less distance than an all season on dry pavement once the temperature drops below about -5C to -10C.  And the colder it gets the more the winter tire outperforms.  SO if you are in a place like Calgary wher eyou can have no snow for  much of the winter but very cold temps - you are still better in a winter tire.

 

2) better performance on ice - this is the siping on the tire that provide this benefit(or the studs).  But of course it is not magic and you still have to allow extra room, lower you speed etc in icey conditions.  Some tires actually have walnut(pecan?) shells in them to assist with the ice performance

 

3) deep snow performance,  Depth/type of tread pattern is generally the defining part here. And this generally applies to low speed performance

 

Like all things where you are trying to do multple things, there are trade offs so you have to find the tire with the best characteristics for the type of driving you do most.

 

My gut feel and experience has been, if you live in a 4 season climate, you are safer driving with winter tires all year than you are driving with all seasons all year.  Of course still better to alternate for the appropriate season.

Cheers

J

post #66 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toecutter View Post

I have more than one car.  You're referring to my fast car but it also applies to my other car with the traction tires.  3" deep slush makes any car want to hydroplane, whereas it doesn't do that on snow and ice. When you encounter slush you have to slow down more than you would with snow and ice because slush is like thick water.

Generally, agree...what I was hoping to impart is that the design evolution to ice tires is consistent with addressing the big winter tire complaint of poor road handling and tread wear. In other words, winter tires are starting to look at lot more like older school winter performance tires on a macro tread level (the directional arrowhead design basis, tighter tread spacing).

Tightening up tread spacing should reduce slush performance all other things being equal, and tread compound and siping advances are likely to have the least positive impact in slush.
post #67 of 102

Gave my first extraction of the season today. Guy was going to a house across the street, missed the driveway a bit and slid into the ditch which was completely filled in with snow. Poor guy's front end was face down in about three feet of snow, with one of his rear tires off the ground. I hooked him up, put my ride (snow tire equipped of course) in 4-Lo, and was able to get him out with pretty much no effort on my vehicles part. Oh, and BTW his car had all-season tires. wink.gif

 

Of course I read the info about the recovery straps above AFTER I did it, and that's definitely good info, BUT I'm kind of with crgildart on this one. IF it's an easy extraction that takes little effort, the tow strap should do just fine (which it did). However, if it's a recovery where there's going to be any resistance or a huge load on the strap, than yeah, we should use the right equipment for sure. Still, after reading all that, I think I'm going to go ahead and invest in a proper looped recovery strap.

 

What's the moral of the story above, though? It's certainly not about towing devices! Get some freaking snow tires for your car or you'll be the next guy embarrassingly being hauled out of a ditch or a snow bank, or having your car pried off the car you t-boned because you slid through the red light. Safe driving this winter, everyone!

post #68 of 102
Wrt the tow strap. If that is the one from harbor freight,which it looks like, be careful. I decided to use mine to extract a very small tree (yeah, I admit, dumbass!) at the side of the property. Strap simply snapped without a lot of load on the pull! May work for a rolling tow but certainly not much dead weight strength. The hooks remained firmly attached at both ends though.
post #69 of 102

My snow tires go on in late October and come off in early May. They get about 10,000 miles a year.

 

I went with a high performance winter tire (Dunlop Wintersport 3D) to preserve some handling capabilities when the roads are dry. They have 2 seasons on them and I'm hoping they will make

it through this year.

 

That would be 30,000 miles. Far more than I expect to get out of the Michelin Pilot Super Sports!

 

jl
 

post #70 of 102

I don't drive much, and have driven Michelin X-Ice through the summer just fine.  I do wonder how they are at 50% tread though---

 

We see all these skating rink tests showing that a studless tire compares well to a studded tire.  I would like to see that same test run on the same two tires at various levels of wear.  I would expect the studless tires drop off fast in ice grip as their deep flexible tread wears.

post #71 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post

I don't drive much, and have driven Michelin X-Ice through the summer just fine.  I do wonder how they are at 50% tread though---

 

We see all these skating rink tests showing that a studless tire compares well to a studded tire.  I would like to see that same test run on the same two tires at various levels of wear.  I would expect the studless tires drop off fast in ice grip as their deep flexible tread wears.

 

 

It's completely dependent on the tire design.  Designs like that found on the Blizzak have a short optimum life due to the winter compound and siping not being full depth.  They perform great when new, but drop off quickly, leaving you with an all-season tire in short order (depending on driving habits and conditions).  The Michelin X-Ice has a much longer optimum life because the siping is full depth and the tread compound also has a deeper effective depth, maintaining winter performance for longer.  I'm going into my fourth season on a pair of X-Ices on a BMW 540i, and they still perform brilliantly.  I just put a new set of X-Ices on our BMW wagon but, unfortunately, can't compare the performance between the two sets of tires because the wagon is AWD and the 540i is RWD.

post #72 of 102

I'm on my 4th winter with the Xice IIs.  I've worn a couple of  sets of Michelin's Xice and Latitude X-ice down to the chords too.   They do pretty well, except in slush and standing water, like I said earlier.  What might surprise you is an unused snow tire with 100 % of the tread left, but stored in a warehouse for six years really sucks.

 

 BTW the studded tire in the commercials i'vs seen used an old studded  tire design; notice they didn't compare a studless tire to a studded  Hakapalita 7.

post #73 of 102

Those wintersport 3D tires are a good choice in their class from my experience

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BOOTech,Inc. View Post

My snow tires go on in late October and come off in early May. They get about 10,000 miles a year.

 

I went with a high performance winter tire (Dunlop Wintersport 3D) to preserve some handling capabilities when the roads are dry. They have 2 seasons on them and I'm hoping they will make

it through this year.

 

That would be 30,000 miles. Far more than I expect to get out of the Michelin Pilot Super Sports!

 

jl
 

I will never, ever again try for three seasons on my snow tires. I did that last year cuz money was tight

 

I live in a rural subdivision and the last two miles to my house is up a moderately steep hill. Coming down it with my worn X-Ice tire was a white knucle affair at every turn when there was unplowed snow on the road. Hit a turn at 9mph and the car would slide.

 

Year one was a dream on those tires.

post #74 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post

Wrt the tow strap. If that is the one from harbor freight,which it looks like, be careful. I decided to use mine to extract a very small tree (yeah, I admit, dumbass!) at the side of the property. Strap simply snapped without a lot of load on the pull! May work for a rolling tow but certainly not much dead weight strength. The hooks remained firmly attached at both ends though.


I don't know what brand mine is, just posted the first strap I found.  I used it to drag a 8X 10 wooden shed full of stuff across the back yard a few years ago.  It seems to work fine.

post #75 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post

I will never, ever again try for three seasons on my snow tires. I did that last year cuz money was tight

 

You must do a heck of a lot of driving on your winter tires, because the X-Ice has a 60,000 km tread life warranty (whatever that 'really' means).  I do about 10,000 km a season on mine, and they're working perfectly going into my 4th season.

post #76 of 102

I've always trusted/respected the reviews out on Tirerack.com and then searching on other sites ... for the Blizzak (OP) question, i'd agree with others in reading 10-20K is reasonable with mixed winter driving.

 

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Blizzak+DM-V1

 

As far as other tires, many while not "winter" tires have exceptionally good winter use.  pure ice is a bit of a joke, I like to tell everyone my 4wd truck can go anywhere fast on anything which is a joke of course as the tyical ice or heavy snow will leave 30 (mostly) SUV 4wd in a small 20 mile stretch out here in my part of Iowa.

 

For my vehicle the Blizzaks are not horribly priced given that most upper better traction all seasons that get 50K-70K will cost 30-50% more, so if you can swing spare rims and the tires, one loses little (cost wise for use) for having some good traction if needed.  I agree too that the OEM tires vary greatly, my truck came with Bridgestone Duelers but in their OEM standard.  I picked up the Bridgestone Dueler Revo 2's and can simply state the drive level on snow both deep and light and icey conditions was amazingly different.   These are pricey but their grip was great.  I need to pick up a new set now and there are far more higher rated tires which I will move to.

post #77 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by exracer View Post

 

You must do a heck of a lot of driving on your winter tires, because the X-Ice has a 60,000 km tread life warranty (whatever that 'really' means).  I do about 10,000 km a season on mine, and they're working perfectly going into my 4th season.

I do. More like 15,000km-plus for me per season. Plus I have that steep hill. Daily work commute of 15km each-- way plus trips to Tahoe and the Bay Area.

 

Truth be told it is my local conditions that warrant fresh rubber

post #78 of 102

I prefer the term "Summer Tires".  We  don't often get snow in June, July or August, so every other year I put those on.  I run my X-ice tires two winters.  After the first winter I change to summer tires. After the second winter, I run them all summer and then replace them.  This year still they look pretty good, so I might not change them.  I'll know when the first ice comes, so far they have been good in the powder and slush I have been driving.

post #79 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by exracer View Post

 

You must do a heck of a lot of driving on your winter tires, because the X-Ice has a 60,000 km tread life warranty (whatever that 'really' means).  I do about 10,000 km a season on mine, and they're working perfectly going into my 4th season.


I put 100,000km on my winter tires over the past 5 years. Two years and out.

post #80 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by iWill View Post


I put 100,000km on my winter tires over the past 5 years. Two years and out.

 

 

How worn out are they?

post #81 of 102
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toecutter View Post

Snow tires wear out at a faster rate than regular tires due to softer rubber compounds, plus you should replace them long before they get down to the treadwear bars since they won't have as much traction.  I get about two winters out of my tires, using them for about 5 months of the year (Nov. - Mar.).  In other words, I replace at around 10,000 miles and/or 50% tread depth.  It seems expensive but the supreme traction of a dedicated ice/snow traction tire is worth it.

That's BS (Bull $hit). I have had 30k miles easy from Nokians, closer actually to 40k miles, with no loss of grip.
post #82 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRISfromRI View Post


That's BS (Bull $hit). I have had 30k miles easy from Nokians, closer actually to 40k miles, with no loss of grip.

 

 

No loss of grip (except for when trying to get up your driveway so you have to turn off the traction control)?

 

I'm getting a pretty good feel for what kind of person you are at this point.

post #83 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toecutter View Post

 

 

No loss of grip (except for when trying to get up your driveway so you have to turn off the traction control)?

 

I'm getting a pretty good feel for what kind of person you are at this point.

Personally, when conditions are right, I like to turn off the electronannies and drive like a Finnish rally driver up the road to my home.

 

This should give you a pretty good feel for what kind of person I am!

 

A little power oversteer?  Uphill?

 

Yeah ,baby.

 

Ahem, this way, if it should happen unexpectedly, I am not unfamiliar with the sensation.

 

Looking forward to doing this alot this winter! Purely for research purposes, of course.

 

jl

post #84 of 102
Not sure how some of you guys get that sort of mileage out of snow tires. I typically put them on mid November and take them off late April. After 7-8000miles over the winter I find blizzaks are typically half worn on the q7. I have seen the same results with dmv1, dmz3 and LM 25s. YMMV
post #85 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post

Not sure how some of you guys get that sort of mileage out of snow tires. I typically put them on mid November and take them off late April. After 7-8000miles over the winter I find blizzaks are typically half worn on the q7. I have seen the same results with dmv1, dmz3 and LM 25s. YMMV

Stud-able snows seem to have much greater tread life than the newer stud-less tires. 

post #86 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post

Not sure how some of you guys get that sort of mileage out of snow tires. I typically put them on mid November and take them off late April. After 7-8000miles over the winter I find blizzaks are typically half worn on the q7. I have seen the same results with dmv1, dmz3 and LM 25s. YMMV

Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post

Stud-able snows seem to have much greater tread life than the newer stud-less tires. 

Also the Q7 is a big, heavy beast. Lighter cars have less wear on the treads of tires.
post #87 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post

Not sure how some of you guys get that sort of mileage out of snow tires. I typically put them on mid November and take them off late April. After 7-8000miles over the winter I find blizzaks are typically half worn on the q7. I have seen the same results with dmv1, dmz3 and LM 25s. YMMV

 

Some guys will use snow tires way past their optimum life.  Sure, you can run a snow tire to 40K miles until you see the wear bars, but you've slowly traded lifespan for performance.  Given what I'm asking my car to do in the winter, I'll gladly pop for new rubber every couple of years to keep myself over on the performance side of the scale.

 

Just tonight I had mounted a fresh set of traction tires and sold my "old" WS70s that have about 1/2 to 2/3 of the tread remaining.  The money from the sale of the used tires paid for about 1/3 the cost of the new ones.  I love fresh tires.

post #88 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by roastpuff View Post

Also the Q7 is a big, heavy beast. Lighter cars have less wear on the treads of tires.

Um, yes. I am we'll aware of that. smile.gif. Can also remember going through a set of front tires on a GTI in less than 5k miles in days gone by. Hmmm, guess there is a common factor! biggrin.gif
post #89 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toecutter View Post

Some guys will use snow tires way past their optimum life.  Sure, you can run a snow tire to 40K miles until you see the wear bars, but you've slowly traded lifespan for performance.  Given what I'm asking my car to do in the winter, I'll gladly pop for new rubber every couple of years to keep myself over on the performance side of the scale.

Just tonight I had mounted a fresh set of traction tires and sold my "old" WS70s that have about 1/2 to 2/3 of the tread remaining.  The money from the sale of the used tires paid for about 1/3 the cost of the new ones.  I love fresh tires.


Yes, a good strategy.
post #90 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toecutter View Post


No loss of grip (except for when trying to get up your driveway so you have to turn off the traction control)?

I'm getting a pretty good feel for what kind of person you are at this point.

If you we're able to read comprehensively then you would know that I have no trouble on my driveways, it's friends and guests that do, and I have a pretty good feel that you'll never be one.
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