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Boots at Soelden - Page 2

post #31 of 158
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post


Happy to be corrected here...but that foot would be a narrow one.

 

No expert on fisher boots - just as I understand - the foot board on the fisher boots is 98mm...that is very wide for some like me.  I ski in a 95mm last, with no punches, no grinds, no pain.  As such the fisher will never work for me, even if the shell is molded vertically straight up off the boot board...it would be too wide.

 

Thanks for explaining.  I guess that makes sense.

 

The Vacuum RC4 130 and 150 (the "95 mm" WC boots) have a bootboard wider than the listed starting last?

 

BTW, Skidude, I vaguely remember reading a post of your's recently where you said you Head Raptor 150 boots are "a hair too wide."  If that's the case, have you explored the Rossi/Lange 92mm chassis?

post #32 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlugBootBlues View Post

 

Let me get this straight:  The Vacuum RC4 130 and 150 (the "95 mm" WC boots) have a bootboard wider than the listed starting last?

 

My understanding is the Vacuum boots, have a last of 98mm.  But I maybe wrong on that...its just my understanding.

post #33 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlugBootBlues View Post

 


BTW, Skidude, I vaguely remember reading a post of your's recently where you said you Head Raptor 150 boots are "a hair too wide."  If that's the case, have you explored the Rossi/Lange 92mm chassis?

 

No I havent...they are hair too wide for a true race fit...but they are great as they are for a performance fit...I can ski all day, and dont even need to unbuckle at lunch...my boots fit great, but man are they a mofo to get on and off.

post #34 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlugBootBlues View Post

 

Don't downplay gear; it's the only thing between the racers and the snow. ski.gif

 

You're verging on sanctimonious and assuming that nobody here could possibly understand what it is you so badly want to believe. None of the top WCer's are going to ski an inferior product. They don't need to. 


Edited by markojp - 11/12/12 at 4:22pm
post #35 of 158
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

 

You're being pretty sanctimonious and assuming that nobody here could possibly understand what it is you so badly want to believe. None of the top WCer's are going to ski an inferior product. They don't need to. Tell us a little what you know about the history of boots and WC victory counts.

 

No

post #36 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlugBootBlues View Post

 

A Vacuum is a Vacuum.  That's the point.  All the Fischer pros hopped into a pre-heated Vacuum 150 or 130, stepped into the fit station, and got a perfect fit, just like consumers can.  That's the point.

and so what??

post #37 of 158
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzamp View Post

and so what??

 

And so, the superior technology is being proven at the WC level, and I think that is cool.

 

 

Anyhow, I encourage you to ask the same question of the hundreds of threads started here each week.  Or, you could simply withdraw yourself from the discussion if you are above it.

post #38 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlugBootBlues View Post

 

No

 

I figured as much. Race background, or is this a new interest? And no, Fischer vacuum boots don't solve all ill, though it looks like it's going to be another great option from one of the companies still around that has a long and respected race history. Are you sure you're not an old poster using a new alias? This is starting to sound familiar somehow. Why the intense emotional investment in a product that you don't personally profit ($$$) from? If you wear it and it works for you, great! More power to you.  Enough interwebz spatting for me. Cheers, and hope it snows soon!

post #39 of 158
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

 Are you sure you're not an old poster using a new alias? This is starting to sound familiar somehow.

 

I checked this thread at 7:00 AM, 12:00 PM, and now, and you were online all day.  When you're logged onto a forum and at your computer all day, probably a lot sounds too familiar.  Maybe you should take a break?

post #40 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlugBootBlues View Post

 

And so, the superior technology is being proven at the WC level, and I think that is cool.

 

 

Anyhow, I encourage you to ask the same question of the hundreds of threads started here each week.  Or, you could simply withdraw yourself from the discussion if you are above it.

I'm not above anything.
I just didn't quite get the point. All other threads refer to customer/public applications, which are quite different than the WC. Just as true WC skis are in a way "tailor made" to each skier (i'll give you 50 skis try them and keep the ones you like) so are boots. Therefore while the stickers and color scheme might be the same it is safe to say that similarities end there. I'm not sure if you know, but at that level everything on the boot is custom, not just the fit. The position of the buckles, the angles of the buckles, the density of the plastic, grinds, footbeds and so on...
At some point I'm sure they all stood on the vacuum machine, but after that a lot of things were changed that make them different from the ones you buy at the store.

post #41 of 158

Regardless, it was pretty cool that the guy was competing on the World Cup on, basically, recreational skis with a shape no one else (on the men's side) was using. I believe both Florence Masnada and Deborah Compagnoni scored World Cup points on shaped skis at about the same time on the women's tour (Salomon and Dynastar respectively). 


Edited by prickly - 11/13/12 at 5:00am
post #42 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

 

My understanding is the Vacuum boots, have a last of 98mm.  But I maybe wrong on that...its just my understanding.


There are two version of Fischer RC4 World cup Pro Vacuum boots. One is "store" version, which indeed comes only with 98mm last, and also different (lycra) liner. Race version is 95mm last, and it comes with much thinner liner, made of material that actually grips on your sock and doesn't slide around like lycra.

post #43 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzamp View Post

I'm not above anything.
I just didn't quite get the point. All other threads refer to customer/public applications, which are quite different than the WC. Just as true WC skis are in a way "tailor made" to each skier (i'll give you 50 skis try them and keep the ones you like) so are boots. Therefore while the stickers and color scheme might be the same it is safe to say that similarities end there. I'm not sure if you know, but at that level everything on the boot is custom, not just the fit. The position of the buckles, the angles of the buckles, the density of the plastic, grinds, footbeds and so on...
At some point I'm sure they all stood on the vacuum machine, but after that a lot of things were changed that make them different from the ones you buy at the store.

I realise the WC Skiers get the best factory produced skis... and that there are Skis made for the general racing public with 'similar' structure and same graphic. Where does the FIS type ski that is available to the public come into the equation...something like the Salamon Lab ski for example?

 

As for Boots...if we had the money, then surely you can have your boots individually tailored like the WC Racers? Surely they have boots from the same mold, but like you say custom altered. That's possible for us, if we had the money.

 

As someone who was a Custom Golfsmith in the past... I know if you have the money and time, it's possible to have what the pro's have. So why not in Skiing? I made to measure Clubs for Amateurs with the same materials as the pros on a regular basis. It's just time and cost and resourcing the materials.

post #44 of 158

well yes and no. Somethings you are just not going to get, no matter how much money you have... Unless you are part of the "family". check what tdk6 said here http://www.epicski.com/t/114913/volkl-skis-at-levi#post_1504950
 

The point remains the same, it seems to me rather futile discussing how many athletes are using this brand over that brand because what they use is not the same product sold to us. And a custom product is a one off, so again you can't really compare it... I would rather talk about how some of the technologies dev. for the WC guys trickle down into consumer end products and how they affect the performance at this end. (for example the vacuum fit, or the piston plates) 
I remember reading a couple fo yrs ago, when HEAD was starting to dominate, how many people all of the sudden switched to their racing skis and then found out they weren't actually that much better and/or they did not fit them right... 
Also athletes switch brands because there is money involved, so if one company is bringing more cash more athletes will use that  (NIKE) it doesn't mean it's automatically the best brand.
 

edit
as far as golf clubs, first awesome job! icon14.gif
second, I don't really know much about golf, but I am assuming that in skiing some technologies are kept secret. while in a golf club is more a matter of what material you use and in what "shape" rather than devices that make your swing more effective.  th_dunno-1[1].gif

post #45 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudski View Post
 It's just time and cost and resourcing the materials.

 

True it is.  Its not a trade secret issue.  But how much time and material are we talking and how does that translate into $$$?

 

Dont know for sure but here is some points to consider:

 

 

Say the labour is $80hr? 

 

The wood for the cores is all hand picked to be "perfect".  8hrs to find the good stuff?

 

Skis are then all hand laid - 6hrs?

 

Materials themselves are better- double the cost of stock? 2xbase (was $36/pair back in the day - say double that for inflation then double again for race stock quality - so $140)

 

Measuring the final pair to check? 12hrs (the skis dont come out perfect each time...to many steps, so they are tripple checked, ones that dont pass go to lower level FIS racers)

 

Assume 1 in 3 will be what guys like Bode and Vonn get....so tripple final number.

 

= (80x8+6x8+140)x3 roughly $2500.  Then add in markups for the manufacturer, distributer, ski store each at 100% you get a $20,000 pair of skis.

 

 

This is all guess, but I think the real issue is the skis are way way more expensive then you realise.  Even if I was out by 100%, the skis would still cost $10k.....I cant see anyone spending that to win their beer league...and the fact is, the better skis wouldn't help them anyway.

post #46 of 158

in the USA, there is available in vacuum for retail a 95mm 150 flex and a 95mm 130 flex, as well as a 98mm  130, 110, and a 98 100womens version, and a 98mm 100 flex jr race version

 

those same boots are available in all the European countries as well.

 

jim

post #47 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

 

True it is.  Its not a trade secret issue.  But how much time and material are we talking and how does that translate into $$$?

 

Dont know for sure but here is some points to consider:

 

 

Say the labour is $80hr? 

 

The wood for the cores is all hand picked to be "perfect".  8hrs to find the good stuff?

 

Skis are then all hand laid - 6hrs?

 

Materials themselves are better- double the cost of stock? 2xbase (was $36/pair back in the day - say double that for inflation then double again for race stock quality - so $140)

 

Measuring the final pair to check? 12hrs (the skis dont come out perfect each time...to many steps, so they are tripple checked, ones that dont pass go to lower level FIS racers)

 

Assume 1 in 3 will be what guys like Bode and Vonn get....so tripple final number.

 

= (80x8+6x8+140)x3 roughly $2500.  Then add in markups for the manufacturer, distributer, ski store each at 100% you get a $20,000 pair of skis.

 

 

This is all guess, but I think the real issue is the skis are way way more expensive then you realise.  Even if I was out by 100%, the skis would still cost $10k.....I cant see anyone spending that to win their beer league...and the fact is, the better skis wouldn't help them anyway.

 

Wow! I screwed that math up....

 

Ok lets just say 2 days to make a pair at $80hr = $1280

Materials = $140

 

Total Cost = $1680

 

Mark-up for Manufactuer (100%) = $3360

Mark-up for Distributer (100%) = $6720

Mark-up for Retail (100%) = $13,440

 

Even if I am out by 100% that is still $6720!

post #48 of 158
Ummm, another thing to consider. On REAL race room product it is not going through a distributor and retailer, it goes straight to the team/athlete
post #49 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post

  •  
  •  
  •  
Ummm, another thing to consider. On REAL race room product it is not going through a distributor and retailer, it goes straight to the team/athlete


Thats true...but if a "regular" guy with deep pockets just wanted it...as is being discussed here....do you really think the manufactuer would side-step the usual sales chain?  Doubt it.

post #50 of 158

how about even a beer league racer can walk into a good boot shop and buy a real race boot for about $700.00. a competent race boot fitter can fix any of the painful boney spots in under an hour which is included in the price of the real race boot. there may be an up-charge for a custom footbed and if you need canting and or plating.

 

bottom line you can have the exact race boot that is being used on the WC, fit exactly the same way as the race boot that is being used on the WC, with the same fore/aft and lateral balance as the real race boot being used on the WC, in about 1 to 3 hours time at a cost to you between $700 and $1,100. so a pair of custom fit and balanced boots from a good race boot fitter puts you on par with the best in the world. the best part about that is now the only excuse that you have for your skiing performance is your skiing performance! well built, well balanced boots are only a check on a checklist of things that you need to get squared away before you get to stand on the podium.

 

yeah it could be argued that your math is suspect, but more to the point your real world knowledge of real world racing looks a little like throwing imaginary darts at an imaginary dartboard. hey did you here the one about how much race boots cost?, yes i read all about it on the internet from a goddam race boot genius.

 

my question to the participants of this thread is whether you actually believe the dribble that is being spread by casual observers of a world that they have little to no knowledge of (prickly and primoz excluded)

 

what is the point of asking questions and then responding to your own questions with answers that you have made up cause you do not know the answers.

 

tongue in cheek as always, and hoping as always this time of year that it snows real soon, so you ski racing experts can all go out and ski, and be too tired to turn on your computers.

 

jim

post #51 of 158

A little spicy there starthaus uh? smile.gif

Some of us might have been there and done that, some of us not, and others have knowledge of similar worlds. This is the beauty of the net. And it's biggest fault.
 

We are all entitled to an opinion and we have the right to share it. If somebody has actual knowledge of the matter and states how things are than it's of benefit to all of us. If not maybe we get something out of each other's points maybe we don't. 
 

As far as what you were saying yes a competent bootfitter can set up almost anybody to the same level of WC, but  since we are talking real numbers (am not trying to pick a fight or anything just get real infos here) how much would it cost me to come to you and have a complete alignement, fore/aft balance, punch/grind, different upper/lower cuff, buckles re-positioning, and liner?
 

That is the value of a boot that compares to the WC ones. 

Would you agree with me in saying that that boot is not the same as the stock of the shelf boot? And thus the two are not comparable as far as performance?
 

Let's hope this new snow is gonna bring peace and serenity to all of us! biggrin.gif

post #52 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by starthaus View Post


yeah it could be argued that your math is suspect, but more to the point your real world knowledge of real world racing looks a little like throwing imaginary darts at an imaginary dartboard. hey did you here the one about how much race boots cost?, yes i read all about it on the internet from a goddam race boot genius.

 

my question to the participants of this thread is whether you actually believe the dribble that is being spread by casual observers of a world that they have little to no knowledge of (prickly and primoz excluded)

 

jim

 

What are you on about?

 

We were talking about FIS skis...not boots.

 

Sure you can buy the FIS skis and they are pretty reasonably priced...but those skis are not the same quality as the ones the top WC athletes use...far from it.  Even thou the process, layup and materials are "theoretically" the same...the reality is, the variance between builds means some skis are better then others.  The top guys get the top skis...and those skis are worth alot more then you might realise.  Even in the WC there is a pecking order as to who gets what.  Or is that changed now?  Tell us about it.  I find it hard to beleive Head for example, would have their top skis made that year, and say..."We were going to give these to Ted...but ok, you want them, so how about $900?"  Wont happen, ever.

 

But keep going...educate us.  Walk us throught the process of making a top pair of WC skis for say Ted Ligety.  And tell us, your views on variance of FIS skis (if there is any according to you)...love to hear it.

post #53 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

 

What are you on about?

 

We were talking about FIS skis...not boots.

 

Sure you can buy the FIS skis and they are pretty reasonably priced...but those skis are not the same quality as the ones the top WC athletes use...far from it.  Even thou the process, layup and materials are "theoretically" the same...the reality is, the variance between builds means some skis are better then others.  The top guys get the top skis...and those skis are worth alot more then you might realise.  Even in the WC there is a pecking order as to who gets what.  Or is that changed now?  Tell us about it.  I find it hard to beleive Head for example, would have their top skis made that year, and say..."We were going to give these to Ted...but ok, you want them, so how about $900?"  Wont happen, ever.

 

But keep going...educate us.  Walk us throught the process of making a top pair of WC skis for say Ted Ligety.  And tell us, your views on variance of FIS skis (if there is any according to you)...love to hear it.

 Gotta say, as a long time race tuner, I gotta agree with ya...there's no question regarding pecking order....you can see it first hand, depending on who's skis your doing...

post #54 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

 Gotta say, as a long time race tuner, I gotta agree with ya...there's no question regarding pecking order....you can see it first hand, depending on who's skis your doing...


Yeah but I am sure "starthaus" we be along shortly to set us straight.

post #55 of 158

  Not tryin to step on toes...just posting my personal observationssmile.gif

post #56 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

Assume 1 in 3 will be what guys like Bode and Vonn get....so tripple final number.

= (80x8+6x8+140)x3 roughly $2500.  Then add in markups for the manufacturer, distributer, ski store each at 100% you get a $20,000 pair of skis.

This is all guess, but I think the real issue is the skis are way way more expensive then you realise.

Yup it was a guess ;) Real cost of WC skis is such, that you would never even think of that price.... 70eur/pair! That's their production cost... or at least that was their production cost last season, and I doubt it changed much from last year to this year ;)

post #57 of 158
Touché! smile.gif. Sure hope it snows soon.
post #58 of 158

I'd like to add that i've posted no opinion, just asked questions...as i'm interested.

 

As to whether you believe what you're told on the internet.... good question. What someone's opinion is, doesn't make it fact.

 

If you can get opinions from those closest to the subject, then you have a better chance of finding the truth.

 

The only person i know on here who works close to the WC circuit is Primoz... So i do listen carefully to his opinions.

 

I apologise if i'm unaware of other posters experience and knowledge.

 

As for my own knowledge...it's very little... Only experience is being a Ski Instructor and Keen enthusiastic Amateur Ski Racer. As for custom fitting... I've worked as a Golfsmith, custom fitting individuals. That's pretty much it... So i've pretty much no knowledge to add, that wouldn't already be known.

 

I do enjoy hearing other peoples opinions though...regardless of their background.

 

I view a forum like this, as having a drink down the bar or pub and having a chat or debate about certain subjects of interest. Pretty much everyone chips in...whether they know or not. We choose to believe or not.

 

It's pretty much like reading most Newspapers....

post #59 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post

Yup it was a guess ;) Real cost of WC skis is such, that you would never even think of that price.... 70eur/pair! That's their production cost... or at least that was their production cost last season, and I doubt it changed much from last year to this year ;)


So 70eu is $140 roughly....I thought thou that was materials only...but you are saying that is labour too?  Even at 40 eur an hour...that is about an hour to make, and 30 eu in material.....are you sure?

post #60 of 158

Since Head boots are made in a country far away where, incidentally, I´at home (Czech Republic) I know from the director of the factory that the boots for top Head racers are made separately because they use specific lasts corresponding to each racer´s feet. He said they also get the plastics for the boots to be made of so that they as sheer manufacturer don´t know exactly their composition. I suppose the finalization of the boots takes place at the bootfitters workshop so that slightly individual positioning of buckles is possible.

 

Primoz,

Judging by the following info the price seems to me difficult but not unrealistic. My source od info is the director of one standard European manufacturer. About 3 or 4 years ago they were asked by a prominent company if they could produce lowend skis for 12 euro/pair. Which they couldn´t he said. We then talked a bit about prices and production costs. I asked him whether a topnotch sandwich ski could be produced for 100 eur. „It would be very difficult.“

It´s possible that big producers like those mostly participating in WC get slightly better prices of wood, titanal, edges, glues etc. so that even 70 eur wouldn´t be impossible. Otoh, the wages/labor costs in Austria, Germany, France are much higher than in this country, Bulgaria, Slovenia or even farther to the east. Is the source of „your“ price bombproof?

 

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