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adjusting demo bindings to different boot length

post #1 of 47
Thread Starter 

I want to adjust my son's bindings from last year for a shorter boot (my wife's). Bindings are Rossignol Axium 110, boot has BSL=277. Binding has marks for length ranges 263-275, 276-288, etc in front, and A, B, C, ... in back.

 

Can I simply:

1) Move toe piece to 276-288 setting (rearmost tip of the toe piece is at the mark).

2) Move rear piece to hold boot snugly.

3) Ensure DIN is correct for her (4).

 

...or do I need to make other fine adjustments?

 

It seems that if the boot is held tightly by the back piece (so there is no play at all in the boot) I can't easily pop the boot out of the back binding by hand (simulating a forward fall). If I loosen the heel piece, there is a little play at the toe end.

post #2 of 47

PM sent

post #3 of 47

I can only recommend that you go to your ski shop, have them both adjust and test the binding, certify the binding.

I know my shop charges 20bucks. 

It's a small price to pay to know that the binding is adjusted properly and that the DIN is set for the skier.

Kids can hurt their knees/hips/legs during a fall just like adults can. 

so don't skimp, oh a don't forget a proper fitting helmet. 

post #4 of 47
Thread Starter 

The adjustment is for my wife to use the skis, not my son, but I appreciate the sentiment about safety. However, I would rather learn to avoid the shop if not needed. Surely people who lend skis with demo bindings to their friends with different boots do not require the shop to make the adjustment.

post #5 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiBumNP View Post

I can only recommend that you go to your ski shop, have them both adjust and test the binding, certify the binding.

I know my shop charges 20bucks. 

It's a small price to pay to know that the binding is adjusted properly and that the DIN is set for the skier.

Kids can hurt their knees/hips/legs during a fall just like adults can. 

so don't skimp, oh a don't forget a proper fitting helmet. 

I agree! icon14.gif

 

My mom borrowed my wife's skis 2010/2011 to go on a ski holiday in BC with my sister, while my mom was/is a good skier, she was 70 at the time and hadn't been on skis for 10-12years.

 

While I gladly adjust my bindings, and that of my kids and wife (and used to adjust hers for years) I insisted that she have the skis and bindings (only 2-3 years old) checked and adjusted professionally for her protection (because of the age and the fact that I have not seen her ski in a long time).  Surprisingly her skiing friend were please to see that we had insisted on this. 

 

I may look for the best deal, but sometimes the few bucks paid are worth the extra protection and reassurance it offers to prevent injury.

 

If you are asking and doing some else's skisfrown.gif, don't is my advise.  If it's your own for you, great.... the first person to pay is youwink.gif....and at that point its your choice.

 

BTW we also made sure she had Helmet and Goggles that fit.

post #6 of 47

Jeff2010, after you slide the heel piece "snug against the boot", with the boot still in the binding, look for a "window"  on the side of the heel piece with possibly an upside down triangle whose point should be positioned between some hash marks, or there might be a similar "checking mechanism" at the back of the heel piece requiring a tab to stick out or be flush, as it varies from binding to binding.

 

It is very important to have the forward heel pressure set correctly in order for the binding to work correctly. A ski or rental shop, if you take them the skis and a boot, should be able to set the correct forward pressure in about 30 seconds. Going to a shop will also give you the knowledge to adjust the skis yourself in the future.

 

The $20 fee suggested in other posts would be for setting the above, calculating DIN and then doing a torque release test which checks the bindings calibration. The ski shop/rental shop where I work does this test to our entire fleet of skis at the start of each season.

post #7 of 47
As an ex ski patroller and now an emergency NP I have seen many injuries from bindings that weren't correctly adjusted. I know the long term cost of a knee injury. I'll be having my bindings tested at the beginning of every season.
post #8 of 47

What is an emergency NP?

post #9 of 47

Agree, having a knee injury is not a good time.  This can also happens from pre-release if you're taking a groomer at a decent speed, and suddenly you realize you only have 1 ski, and you're not bode miller or a ski school kid and you toepick your free boot and wipe out.

 

For the $20, you can question the shop monkey and have him show you how he does it, so at least you can learn yourself.  Especially now in pre-season the fee might even be reduced, or at least he will have time to gab with you.

 

But yea, the measurement marking numbers are just a guideline.  Once you get it relatively close, you do what DanoT said, you need to check the pressure on the back binding, either the arrow between the marks or the button sticking out that should be flush.  Sometimes the boot measurements are not uniform between the manufacturers, and you got to move one of the bindings 1 tab forward or back.


Edited by raytseng - 10/30/12 at 12:05am
post #10 of 47

The forward pressure as others have said is the most important factor and while not difficult it is not necessarily intuitive depending on the ski. If you don't know how or have a friend who knows its worth paying the fee once to have someone show u. 

post #11 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiBumNP View Post

As an ex ski patroller and now an emergency NP I have seen many injuries from bindings that weren't correctly adjusted. I know the long term cost of a knee injury. I'll be having my bindings tested at the beginning of every season.

 

As an ex patroller you should understand that no current bindings (with the possible, somewhat controversial, exception of Knee Bindings) really mitigates against soft tissue injuries to the knees (cruciate/collateral ligament tears or meniscus damage). Its still all about not breaking bones! 

 

Adjusting bindings is not rocket science and the information is out there if you look for it. Alternatively, the suggestion to pay, watch and learn is an excellent one.

 

When it comes to system and demo bindings its pretty much child's play, and the shop doesn't do anything that I'm not doing.

post #12 of 47

The forward pressure needs to be properly set.  You may find these sites interesting:

http://www.rasc.ru/gear/pdf/manual0506_r_en_US.pdf

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/54200006/Mounting-and-Adjusting-Rossignol-Axium-100-and-Axium-110200

 

On many bindings, turning a screw moves the heel piece back and forth until the forward pressure indicator is in the correct position.  On other bindings, a tab is swapped to a different notch.  In all cases the binding should be moved to the proper position when the boot is not in the binding, so there is no pressure on the mechanisms, and the forward pressure checked with the boot locked in, so that it is pushing the heel piece back against a spring. 

post #13 of 47

Go to Looks page and download the most recent manual also.

 

http://www.look-bindings.com/CG/CA/technical-manuals.html

post #14 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrezmer View Post

What is an emergency NP?

I am a Nurse Practitioner who works in an Emergency Department. 

post #15 of 47

There are three steps to doing this correctly:

 

1) Adjust the binding to the boot sole length and ensure that the forward pressure indicator is within range.  Each binding manufacturer has a different way of indicating that the forward pressure is correct, so I can't give precise instructions here.  But I will say that if you get the forward pressure wrong, nothing else will be right and the ski may come off when it's not supposed to or not come off at all.  This is the step most people miss when doing their own bindings - it's not rocket surgery, but if you don't know how to read the forward pressure indicator, find out or take the skis to someone who does.

 

2) Look up the DIN in the DIN chart ( http://www.dinsetting.com/images/MarkerDinChart0708_sm.jpg ) and turn the screws to the right number on the heel and toe pieces.  A shaved monkey can do this.  Don't fall for the common misconception of thinking you know how to adjust bindings just because you can do this step.

 

3) Test the bindings by applying torque and noting that the binding releases at the proper torque.   The  torque is the number in the last two columns on the chart.  For me, it's 58 Newton-meters to release the toe and 229 Newton Meters to release the heel.  Don't have a torque wrench calibrated in Newton-meters?  Well, the ski shop does and will only charge you ~$20 to test your bindings.

 

My advice is that if you're only doing it once a season, just take it to a shop and be done with it.  If you're planning on changing them out on a regular basis, learn how to read the forward pressure indicator and do it yourself, recognizing that your wife or son will be skiing on untested settings.  My take is that if the forward pressure is correct and the binding has been tested recently you should be fine.  I have demo bindings on my skis and loan them out sometimes  without testing them each time. I figure that if this is good enough for the demo hut, which doesn't test each time they send out skis, it's good enough for me.

post #16 of 47

Question on a similar theme:

I have a pair of 2012 Atomic (Salomon) FFG12 demo bindings.  They were adjusted by a shop to one set of boots (316mm length).   I recorded the DIN, toe piece position setting, and heelpiece position setting. 

Later on, they were adjusted by another shop to fit my 305mm length boots (I also recorded these settings).

Is there any reason I can't switch between these boots in these bindings by just adjusting the toe/heel/DIN settings to the exact numbers the shops put them at (as long as the pressure indicator pops up in the window)?  Is there anything else that might have been adjusted (e.g. toe height adjustment?), or is this not routinely adjusted/checked with demo bindings?  Just hoping I can easily switch between boots in these bindings myself without taking them back to the shop.

 

Thanks.

post #17 of 47

It's not that simple.  You can adjust them to the size of your boots and DIN setting, but you still need to adjust the forward pressure or they won't be properly set up.  Not sure about Salomon forward pressure adjustment, but on my Markers it consists of adjusting the heel screw so it is flush when the boot is in the binding. 

 

Bottom line is that you should go to a shop if you aren't sure about what you are doing.

 

You shouldn't have to adjust the binding toe height on a modern binding.

 

Mike

Quote:
Originally Posted by petey View Post

Question on a similar theme:

I have a pair of 2012 Atomic (Salomon) FFG12 demo bindings.  They were adjusted by a shop to one set of boots (316mm length).   I recorded the DIN, toe piece position setting, and heelpiece position setting. 

Later on, they were adjusted by another shop to fit my 305mm length boots (I also recorded these settings).

Is there any reason I can't switch between these boots in these bindings by just adjusting the toe/heel/DIN settings to the exact numbers the shops put them at (as long as the pressure indicator pops up in the window)?  Is there anything else that might have been adjusted (e.g. toe height adjustment?), or is this not routinely adjusted/checked with demo bindings?  Just hoping I can easily switch between boots in these bindings myself without taking them back to the shop.

 

Thanks.

post #18 of 47

BTW, some shops will adjust demo bindings for free.  They'll charge you if you want them tested, but setting the forward pressure and DIN just like they do with their demo skis is sometimes graits.  At least it is at the demo center I frequent.   Worth asking...

post #19 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeC View Post

 

Bottom line is that you should go to a shop if you aren't sure about what you are doing.

 

 

Those that understand this statement likely know how to adjust their bindings, those that don't likely should be following the advice of the statement.

 

Well stated Mike! icon14.gif

post #20 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post

There are three steps to doing this correctly:

 

1) Adjust the binding to the boot sole length and ensure that the forward pressure indicator is within range.  Each binding manufacturer has a different way of indicating that the forward pressure is correct, so I can't give precise instructions here.  But I will say that if you get the forward pressure wrong, nothing else will be right and the ski may come off when it's not supposed to or not come off at all.  This is the step most people miss when doing their own bindings - it's not rocket surgery, but if you don't know how to read the forward pressure indicator, find out or take the skis to someone who does.

 

2) Look up the DIN in the DIN chart ( http://www.dinsetting.com/images/MarkerDinChart0708_sm.jpg ) and turn the screws to the right number on the heel and toe pieces.  A shaved monkey can do this.  Don't fall for the common misconception of thinking you know how to adjust bindings just because you can do this step.

 

3) Test the bindings by applying torque and noting that the binding releases at the proper torque.   The  torque is the number in the last two columns on the chart.  For me, it's 58 Newton-meters to release the toe and 229 Newton Meters to release the heel.  Don't have a torque wrench calibrated in Newton-meters?  Well, the ski shop does and will only charge you ~$20 to test your bindings.

 

My advice is that if you're only doing it once a season, just take it to a shop and be done with it.  If you're planning on changing them out on a regular basis, learn how to read the forward pressure indicator and do it yourself, recognizing that your wife or son will be skiing on untested settings.  My take is that if the forward pressure is correct and the binding has been tested recently you should be fine.  I have demo bindings on my skis and loan them out sometimes  without testing them each time. I figure that if this is good enough for the demo hut, which doesn't test each time they send out skis, it's good enough for me.

 

This pretty much covers it. I have never paid to have my bindings adjusted, it's not rocket science. Find an instruction manual for your bindings online if you have to.

post #21 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeC View Post

It's not that simple.  You can adjust them to the size of your boots and DIN setting, but you still need to adjust the forward pressure or they won't be properly set up.  Not sure about Salomon forward pressure adjustment, but on my Markers it consists of adjusting the heel screw so it is flush when the boot is in the binding. 

 

Bottom line is that you should go to a shop if you aren't sure about what you are doing.

 

You shouldn't have to adjust the binding toe height on a modern binding.

 

Mike

 

He referred to the pressure indicator in his post and by that I assume he means forward pressure. As long as that checks out he is fine. People are causing mass hysteria in here about bindings. It is simply not that difficult.

post #22 of 47

There's no reference to the pressure indicator in the original post below.  In fact he asks if there are any other "fine adjustments", and I would count the forward pressure as a fine adjustment.

 

Mine, and others concern isn't mass hysteria about bindings.  It's simply advice to make sure the bindings are set up correctly.  

 

If the forward pressure isn't set correctly, it is a major issue.  Ski may release prematurely, or not release, both of which aren't fun.  

 

Mike

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff2010 View Post

I want to adjust my son's bindings from last year for a shorter boot (my wife's). Bindings are Rossignol Axium 110, boot has BSL=277. Binding has marks for length ranges 263-275, 276-288, etc in front, and A, B, C, ... in back.

 

Can I simply:

1) Move toe piece to 276-288 setting (rearmost tip of the toe piece is at the mark).

2) Move rear piece to hold boot snugly.

3) Ensure DIN is correct for her (4).

 

...or do I need to make other fine adjustments?

 

It seems that if the boot is held tightly by the back piece (so there is no play at all in the boot) I can't easily pop the boot out of the back binding by hand (simulating a forward fall). If I loosen the heel piece, there is a little play at the toe end.

post #23 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeC View Post

There's no reference to the pressure indicator in the original post below.  In fact he asks if there are any other "fine adjustments", and I would count the forward pressure as a fine adjustment.

 

Mine, and others concern isn't mass hysteria about bindings.  It's simply advice to make sure the bindings are set up correctly.  

 

If the forward pressure isn't set correctly, it is a major issue.  Ski may release prematurely, or not release, both of which aren't fun.  

 

Mike

 

Agreed, but you directly quoted petey's question above and he does mention it. I understand people's concern but the answer should not always be "seek professional help." I guess I just find that annoying. Read the manual and you can do it in 10 minutes.

post #24 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post

There are three steps to doing this correctly:

 

1) Adjust the binding to the boot sole length and ensure that the forward pressure indicator is within range.  Each binding manufacturer has a different way of indicating that the forward pressure is correct, so I can't give precise instructions here.  But I will say that if you get the forward pressure wrong, nothing else will be right and the ski may come off when it's not supposed to or not come off at all.  This is the step most people miss when doing their own bindings - it's not rocket surgery, but if you don't know how to read the forward pressure indicator, find out or take the skis to someone who does.

 

2) Look up the DIN in the DIN chart ( http://www.dinsetting.com/images/MarkerDinChart0708_sm.jpg ) and turn the screws to the right number on the heel and toe pieces.  A shaved monkey can do this.  Don't fall for the common misconception of thinking you know how to adjust bindings just because you can do this step.

 

3) Test the bindings by applying torque and noting that the binding releases at the proper torque.   The  torque is the number in the last two columns on the chart.  For me, it's 58 Newton-meters to release the toe and 229 Newton Meters to release the heel.  Don't have a torque wrench calibrated in Newton-meters?  Well, the ski shop does and will only charge you ~$20 to test your bindings.

 

My advice is that if you're only doing it once a season, just take it to a shop and be done with it.  If you're planning on changing them out on a regular basis, learn how to read the forward pressure indicator and do it yourself, recognizing that your wife or son will be skiing on untested settings.  My take is that if the forward pressure is correct and the binding has been tested recently you should be fine.  I have demo bindings on my skis and loan them out sometimes  without testing them each time. I figure that if this is good enough for the demo hut, which doesn't test each time they send out skis, it's good enough for me.

 

How often do the demo huts do step 3?  Because I seem to have steps 1 and 2 down, but obviously don't have a torque wrench...  I would be happy doing whatever the demo huts do...

post #25 of 47
Thread Starter 

I'd be glad to buy a torque wrench if needed (best way to tighten the lug nuts on your car wheels), but that is one aspect of the binding test procedure that I would need to have someone show me.

 

(Converting from foot-pounds to Newton-meters is trivial, so either scale is okay.)

post #26 of 47

It's not that kind of torque wrench. It's a specialized tool for testing binding release values. If you don't even know that you really need to have the adjustment done at a shop for reasons stated earlier.

post #27 of 47

Well part of it is pretty much an ordinary torque wrench.  The other parts are a last that fits in a boot, and an extension from the last to the wrench.

See here http://www.vermontskisafety.com/files/VERMONT-RELEASE-CALIBRATER.pdf

post #28 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by petey View Post

 

How often do the demo huts do step 3?  Because I seem to have steps 1 and 2 down, but obviously don't have a torque wrench...  I would be happy doing whatever the demo huts do...

 

Protocol for demo huts and rental centers is to test each binding at the beginning of the season at various DIN settings and make sure it releases at the right torque.  So basically once a season.

 

At $20/year, you'll go a long time before you recoup your investment in the test equipment - it's more involved than just buying a torque wrench, although the concept is the same.

 

Bottom line here is that modern bindings are pretty good, and if the binding passes for one sole length / DIN setting then it should pass at a different sole length / DIN setting.  The failure rate for indemnified bindings is quite small.  So, I'm comfortable using a binding that has not been tested at this specific setting as long as the adjustments have been made properly and the binding has been tested in the last year or so.  I understand that others may want to be more cautious and have them tested every time.

post #29 of 47

I do not see demo huts using torque wrenches. They don't always even match your boot to the ski. I've seen them ask for your BSL, set the binding to your boot size and then watch you step into the binding to see if it looks to be "about right". I like having multiple skis for different conditions so I buy used skis with demo bindings for my family. I personally  have two pair of boots with different BSL lengths so every time I change boots I have to check my bindings to see if they are set to the boot I'm wearing. I get my bindings checked and serviced at the start of each season. I'm sure I've made mistakes but I know ski shops make mistakes too so I'm OK accepting my shortcomings instead of farming the work out to someone else. The one critical area that you've got to be careful with that is sometimes overlooked is the toe pressure. Since each style of binding has its own method of identifying the correct pressure it can make it a little tricky.

post #30 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post

 

Protocol for demo huts and rental centers is to test each binding at the beginning of the season at various DIN settings and make sure it releases at the right torque.  So basically once a season.

 

Actually shops are required to test a certain sample size of their rental fleets periodically.  Periodically will vary from shop to shop.  At most shops that I worked at, rental and demo samples were tested at least once a month during the season.  At the shop that I work at, rental and demo samples are tested every week.

 

Dennis

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