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Ligety - Soelden - 35m skis - Page 4

post #91 of 107

didn't Jon Olsson try to qualify for the WC this year?  I know he has been training with the head guys...

post #92 of 107

Well the ladies didn't need to ski in 11" crud... was their technique shabby compared to last year? (IMHO, some of it looked ugly, although that was the first WC race that I watched most of the full feed, so maybe other races had bad runs I just never saw).  If not, we can blame the deep snow.  If so, then it's the skis.

post #93 of 107

Jon is on the Swedish Europa Cup team, and will probably get a handful of World Cup starts this year in GS. He lost a time trial to Byggmark for the final Swedish spot in Solden. By all accounts, Jon is faster than Byggs (and up there with Matts Olsson) on the steeps, but he is dead slow on the flats. He can really turn them, and is faster on the new product than the old.

 

Check out his website for more info. www.jon-olsson.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzamp View Post

didn't Jon Olsson try to qualify for the WC this year?  I know he has been training with the head guys...

post #94 of 107

thanks, I knew he used to race as a kid before going over to the "dark side"

post #95 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzamp View Post

didn't Jon Olsson try to qualify for the WC this year?  I know he has been training with the head guys...

Indeed. The guy's a beast!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QhiyJ5c-XeM

Have to like this lad as well:

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=related&v=WhqCwBUN-2c

Big thread drift, but I have to say I love what TL brings to the WC AND what the strongest free riders are doing. It's all quite a show!
Edited by markojp - 10/30/12 at 10:22pm
post #96 of 107

In my mind, it's way to early to say anything. First, it was just one race. On top of that, it was run in extremely weird conditions. If you believe it or not, there was really huge difference between conditions Schoerghofer (no.1) and Richard (no.2) were skiing and conditions Ligety (no.5) was skiing, not to mention Hirscher (no.7) or later ones, somewhere to number 40. This also explains pretty big count of high bibs qualifying for 2nd run (or even being top 10 after first run). Of course I'm not saying anything against Ligety... his result is insane and noone can say anything about this. But personally I would still say it's way too early to say anything about the season.

 

PS: See difference in conditions:

 

1. Schoerghofer

spo_skiing_20121028nw_01918.jpg

 

5. Ligety

spo_skiing_20121028nw_01943.jpg

 

7. Hirscher

spo_skiing_20121028nw_01955.jpg

 

15. Raich

spo_skiing_20121028nw_02010.jpg

 

30. Haugen

spo_skiing_20121028nw_02124.jpg

 

60. Romar

spo_skiing_20121028nw_02203.jpg

post #97 of 107

Primoz, Nice pictures....It's a shame that we don't have overlayed video of the skiers (in the same turn) to show the different technique in the turns and how the ski is initially set and then carved through.  I think that would be very telling on what is happening and how athletes are adapting.

 

Just personal opinion I think Ligety may be leaning further forward on the ski, taking advantage of the longer ski.  Again without a side by side (or overlay) video of the entire turn it is only a guess.

post #98 of 107

Good discussion, here's my thoughts:

 

- Remember, the equipment changes were allegedly done in the name of increased safety. Yep, per what Primoz has said, there were actually fewer injuries in the prep period, and no knee injuries that I know of at Soelden. There were some horrific crashes, however, which may have been due to the conditions more than anything else. But I think the jury is still out on the safety aspects of the changes.

 

- I agree with Muleski that it looks like the best skiers (as opposed to racers who can just whack plastic) can best optimize the new gear. I thought Tina Maze and Ligety were the two best skiers on the hill at Soelden, and I think there was a lot of poor skiing by their competition. More on that in a minute.

 

- I agree with Primoz that the conditions were not only sketchy, they varied incredibly from one racer to the next. Ligety got better light than the others, and in the second women's course, some racers got hit with a 30 mph wind coming straight up the hill in the flats, some did not. 

 

- I still think that GS has taken a step or two back. Per what Doug Lewis said, Ligety skied a very round, classical GS line, Hirscher tried to cut off the line, and that didn't work at Soelden for Hirscher. We're used to seeing improvements in equipment that help racers not only go faster, but do so more efficiently, and last weekend was the first time I've seen the top racers in the world fighting against their equipment. I can't really say yet if it's the ski or the skier, but I don't like it. Some of the margins, not just Ligety's over Moelgg, were astounding. If you've got racers in the top 30 of the WC finishing 6 plus seconds out of first, the FIS is going to have a hard time selling the excitement of ski racing to the fans. I really didn't get a sense of a race going on, just a bunch of people skiing the hill, and some did it pretty well, and others were waaay out in the weeds.

 

I think I remember hearing that the hill skied 6 plus seconds slower than previous years for the entire field. I don't know if the racers were actually going slower, my impression was that they were going just as fast, but on a longer, rounder line. Is that safer? I don't know, but it definitely wasn't as engaging, to me, as the more direct line that GS has taken previously. I also wonder about the course setting. I dunno if the course set regs changed, but I heard that for the women's training courses, they were setting something like 28M between gates. Okay, fine, but the second run of the women's race looked very poorly set to me...excessively round in the middle and onto the flats...the racers were poling and skating to get through the finish, and that's not alpine racing, to me. So I'm curious to see how the sets change....or not...in the upcoming GSs.

 

- I'm curious to see how the Austrians and Atomic react to all this, after all the stories about how they pressured the FIS to make these changes, hoping that the changes would help their athletes. The Austrians didn't do badly...they did about as well as they have for the last couple of years. But I think unless something changes drastically for Hirscher, he's going to have a tough time recapturing the GS globe, and the overall will be commensurately more difficult.

 

So...I dunno. According to the FIS, last year, the decision is a done deal, and there's no going back. But safety or not, I'm not sure the new GS regs are entirely in the interest of ski racing, and I have a feeling you haven't heard the last of this issue...

post #99 of 107

"- I still think that GS has taken a step or two back. Per what Doug Lewis said, Ligety skied a very round, classical GS line, Hirscher tried to cut off the line, and that didn't work at Soelden for Hirscher. We're used to seeing improvements in equipment that help racers not only go faster, but do so more efficiently, and last weekend was the first time I've seen the top racers in the world fighting against their equipment. I can't really say yet if it's the ski or the skier, but I don't like it. Some of the margins, not just Ligety's over Moelgg, were astounding. If you've got racers in the top 30 of the WC finishing 6 plus seconds out of first, the FIS is going to have a hard time selling the excitement of ski racing to the fans. I really didn't get a sense of a race going on, just a bunch of people skiing the hill, and some did it pretty well, and others were waaay out in the weeds."

 

Like I said earlier, if the FIS has done to GS what Dorna has done to Moto GP, the spectators and the sport will suffer.

This years MotoGP champ, Jorge Lorenzo, was first or 2nd in 17 of 18 races.

Two other guys could run with him, Stoner and Pedrosa, but they gapped the rest of the field by many seconds.

The cameras had to focus on non podium racers to see any real close racing.

Stoner has quit the sport in disgust after he smoked them all at Philip Island.

I think he is the best of the lot excluding Rossi who had a non-competitive Ducati.

It was very sad to watch what is probably one of the best motorcycle racers ever finishing in 9th place.

Thanks Dorna!

The lower classes are much more fun to watch, the whole field is within seconds at the end.

Let's hope that FIS doesn't fall into this trap.

 

Regarding doping......

I really want to believe that at least the A team guys and girls are pretty clean.

But, I believed Lance too!

 

Keep up the great posts...this is the best analysis on the internet.

post #100 of 107

Ted Ligety won Soelden last year as well. This year his combined time was 2.36.02. Last year his combined time was 2.22.00. This obviously isn't a perfect comparison (course set, conditions), but I think a 14 second gap for the single best adjusted guy is noteworthy. That's almost 10% slower. Marcel Hirscher went from 2.23.23 to 2.39.14 or over 11% slower. Subjectively, the skiing wasn't nearly as entertaining and doesn't make me want to try giant GS skis anytime soon. Damn you FIS!

post #101 of 107

As I wrote already, I really wouldn't put much into this race, except once again astonishing time split Ligety managed to ski out. Sure time difference (2:22.00 last year, 2:36.02 this year) is huge, but with GS, SL and SG it's impossible to compare these things through the year. Even with DH it's hard due different conditions, but with GS it's pretty much impossible. If you just look number of gates, things are different. First run 2012 49 (47 turning gates), 2011 47/44. Second run 2012 48/47, 2011 49/46. Then you need to check conditions. Last year it was nice and sunny with no wind and fast snow. This year it was pretty windy (mostly blowing from bottom up so it did slow skiers a lot), with lot of fog and flat light, with lot of snow just out of ideal line, and you could easily see that difference in finish of both runs. Last year they came to finish, even if last 100m are flat, with full speed, this year, they almost need to push just to cross the line. And this has nothing to do with new skis. When I went down during inspection, I went straight down from somewhere same place where I normally go. Just that this year I actually needed to skate to exit a bit before finish line. So it was really much much slower. So those 14sec might sound a lot, and they might even be a lot, but I don't think there's much about skis in this time but a lot more about conditions.

post #102 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastskier44 View Post

Great vid!  The one interesting similarity I see between Ligety and Stenmark is that they both are picking up their old outside ski after completing their turns (the new inside ski).  Stenmark does this more noticeably, but Ligety nevertheless still does it almost every turn.  I don't analyze WC GS enough to know a lot about it, but I'm not sure if that was as common in recent prior years.  I know its a no-no with PSIA.

I noticed IS lifting his inside ski a lot more than I did Ligety...it was almost as if IS was skating into and out of his turns.

post #103 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by dookey67 View Post

I noticed IS lifting his inside ski a lot more than I did Ligety...it was almost as if IS was skating into and out of his turns.

 

That's not what he's doing....

post #104 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 View Post

Good discussion, here's my thoughts:

 

- Remember, the equipment changes were allegedly done in the name of increased safety. Yep, per what Primoz has said, there were actually fewer injuries in the prep period, and no knee injuries that I know of at Soelden. There were some horrific crashes, however, which may have been due to the conditions more than anything else. But I think the jury is still out on the safety aspects of the changes.

 

- I agree with Muleski that it looks like the best skiers (as opposed to racers who can just whack plastic) can best optimize the new gear. I thought Tina Maze and Ligety were the two best skiers on the hill at Soelden, and I think there was a lot of poor skiing by their competition. More on that in a minute.

 

- I agree with Primoz that the conditions were not only sketchy, they varied incredibly from one racer to the next. Ligety got better light than the others, and in the second women's course, some racers got hit with a 30 mph wind coming straight up the hill in the flats, some did not. 

 

- I still think that GS has taken a step or two back. Per what Doug Lewis said, Ligety skied a very round, classical GS line, Hirscher tried to cut off the line, and that didn't work at Soelden for Hirscher. We're used to seeing improvements in equipment that help racers not only go faster, but do so more efficiently, and last weekend was the first time I've seen the top racers in the world fighting against their equipment. I can't really say yet if it's the ski or the skier, but I don't like it. Some of the margins, not just Ligety's over Moelgg, were astounding. If you've got racers in the top 30 of the WC finishing 6 plus seconds out of first, the FIS is going to have a hard time selling the excitement of ski racing to the fans. I really didn't get a sense of a race going on, just a bunch of people skiing the hill, and some did it pretty well, and others were waaay out in the weeds.

 

I think I remember hearing that the hill skied 6 plus seconds slower than previous years for the entire field. I don't know if the racers were actually going slower, my impression was that they were going just as fast, but on a longer, rounder line. Is that safer? I don't know, but it definitely wasn't as engaging, to me, as the more direct line that GS has taken previously. I also wonder about the course setting. I dunno if the course set regs changed, but I heard that for the women's training courses, they were setting something like 28M between gates. Okay, fine, but the second run of the women's race looked very poorly set to me...excessively round in the middle and onto the flats...the racers were poling and skating to get through the finish, and that's not alpine racing, to me. So I'm curious to see how the sets change....or not...in the upcoming GSs.

 

- I'm curious to see how the Austrians and Atomic react to all this, after all the stories about how they pressured the FIS to make these changes, hoping that the changes would help their athletes. The Austrians didn't do badly...they did about as well as they have for the last couple of years. But I think unless something changes drastically for Hirscher, he's going to have a tough time recapturing the GS globe, and the overall will be commensurately more difficult.

 

So...I dunno. According to the FIS, last year, the decision is a done deal, and there's no going back. But safety or not, I'm not sure the new GS regs are entirely in the interest of ski racing, and I have a feeling you haven't heard the last of this issue...

Just some thoughts about your excellent post.  I assume the two main components to successful racing are skill and athleticism (I never had either).  Ligety probably thinks through a race as well as anyone.  Therefore, his " very round, classical GS line" as described by Doug Lewis shows skill in knowing what kind of turn to make, what modifications to make in technique due to the new equipment,  when to start and finish each turn. what line to take, etc.    Hirscher and others taking a more direct "modern" line demonstrate less skill (perhaps "a less optimal technique" is a better description) given the new equipment.  Paradoxically, taking a straighter line is also more physically tiring.  The new equipment seems to place a greater emphasis on skill and less on pure athleticism (Ligety obviously has both).

 

It seems possible we now have more of an opportunity to see skill prevail, meaning a wider margin in the times for each race.  It true, this means there will be less of a "luck" factor in determining the winner of each race and the overall title. 

post #105 of 107

Thanks.  Very interesting, and I agree with you. Ligety is a great athlete, but he's also a great skier (skill), and he's really smart. So he adapted better, and used his skill and smarts to separate himself from the field at Soelden. So either the others can decide to ski better and smarter, or they could be left in the dust.  I'll probably get disagreements on this, but it looks like skiing round and clean in GS now takes precedence over taking risks, trying to cut off the line, and skiing at the limit. And to me, racers taking risks makes ski racing what it is...or what GS has been. Hirscher won last year by taking risks and pulling them off. I *think* he's going to take the same approach to SL this year. And it's clear to me that winners take risks in the other disciplines, too (example: Bode Miller's winning run in the 2011 BC Men's DH). And I have this feeling that it's going to be a very strange scene, indeed, on the WC where to win in GS, you essentially have to be calculating, whereas to win in the other events, you need to pull out all the stops...

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by quant2325 View Post

Just some thoughts about your excellent post.  I assume the two main components to successful racing are skill and athleticism (I never had either).  Ligety probably thinks through a race as well as anyone.  Therefore, his " very round, classical GS line" as described by Doug Lewis shows skill in knowing what kind of turn to make, what modifications to make in technique due to the new equipment,  when to start and finish each turn. what line to take, etc.    Hirscher and others taking a more direct "modern" line demonstrate less skill (perhaps "a less optimal technique" is a better description) given the new equipment.  Paradoxically, taking a straighter line is also more physically tiring.  The new equipment seems to place a greater emphasis on skill and less on pure athleticism (Ligety obviously has both).

 

It seems possible we now have more of an opportunity to see skill prevail, meaning a wider margin in the times for each race.  It true, this means there will be less of a "luck" factor in determining the winner of each race and the overall title. 

post #106 of 107

I found it riveting to learn that Ivica Kostelic doens't have any talent, and rides by on his thunder thighs alone.  That says a lot for the pure physical nature of skiing, given his near 100% finish rate in the slalom.

post #107 of 107
Harold Harb was very critical of Ted's boot set up and technique last year. Looks like he's made the right changes in the off season.
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