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"To Carve or Not to Carve" article in PSIA 32 Degrees discussion. - Page 2

post #31 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

That would be "super-stivot" I believe.

 


I quickly read the comments, here and was asked to explain this sequence so here goes:

 

Frame 1 - skier near the end of the turn, working the tail of the ski as would be expected for this phase,

Frame 2 - skier is ending the turn here, notice he is less inclined then in frame 1, but he is still working that tail hard to keep the ski coming across the hill, note that tail flex!  This is WC skiing at its best...releasing the turn with the upper body, but holding on to the tail....SWEET.

Frame 3 - Still releasing old turn, abit twisted from skis turning energy from Frame 2

Frame 4 - Core strenght pulls him back together - again WC skiing and fitness at work here.

Frames 5,6,7 - Hitting the brakes - on purpose - he does that through ILS - note the calm stable upper body.  This is not a Stivot.  If it were, the skis would have only been pivoted to the rise line, he clearly goes way past that.  Further, tactically, if you must hit the breaks, you do it on a steep pitch so you can accelerate easier after...never hit the brakes on a flat...its death.  Not knowing the outcome here, but tactically seems a reasonable choice was made, as he maintained a tight line, and likley didnt dump as much speed as it may appear.

Frame 8  - Pivots the skis back to the rise line again using proper ILS.  Beauty.  Again, this is what proper pivoting gives you...good skid, vs bad skid.  A good skid can be turned into a pure carve at any time...a bad ski cant.  Excellant example here of a "good skid". 

Frames 9,10 - Carves it out to the next gate.

 

 

 

Is ILS taught to young racers...definatley.


Edited by Skidude72 - 10/21/12 at 6:54pm
post #32 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

 

Frames 5,6,7 - Hitting the brakes - on purpose - he does that through ILS - note the calm stable upper body.  This is not a Stivot.  If it were, the skis would have only been pivoted to the rise line, he clearly goes way past that. 

 

 

 

Is ILS taught to young racers...definatley.

Correct, it's not a stivot, its a super-stivot. At least that is how RLM uses the term.

 

About the ILS. Do you mean ILS as a rotation around an axis passing through the hip socket and somewhere close to the foot, or in broader term? If it is the former I don't think its the only thing going on because that does not work when you are heavily inclinated

post #33 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Correct, it's not a stivot, its a super-stivot. At least that is how RLM uses the term.

 

About the ILS. Do you mean ILS as a rotation around an axis passing through the hip socket and somewhere close to the foot, or in broader term? If it is the former I don't think its the only thing going on because that does not work when you are heavily inclinated

 

ILS is rotation about BOTH axis (ie one for each leg).  Its the both that makes it work.  Two pivot points stablize each other,  as for heavily inclinated: how inclinated you are, is actually totally irrelevant, what you are referring to ILS is difficult with a high degree of edge engagment....while perhaps there is a correlation between inclination and edge engagment, not always as can be seen here....there is no edge engagment, he is skidding big time.  A huge part of proper pivoting, is controlling where the pivot happens, we manipulate that through a few things, but fore/aft balance is the major factor (along with a proper rotation in the hip socket, as opposed to a tail push for example), to keep the pivot under foot, its important to have fore/aft balance such that during the skid the force on the tails, matches the tips...hence they are neutral, the only force required to turn the skis, is to over come the "scrubbing"....which isnt that much force at that speed.  You can play with this just doing side slips, you will notice the amount of fore/aft adjustment required is not a huge.  As you ramp up speed and are able to stivot, skid to a carve...you will notice inclination will need to increase to antcipate the edge engaging. 

post #34 of 42

Is there any other way to rotate the ski along an axis from the ankle to the hip socket other than femur rotation in the hip socket?

When I look at the sequence I am amazed by how easily he controls the angle of the ski to his path by subtle fore aft shifts and edge control.

I think the ski is generating all the turning forces and the skier is not actively rotating the ski..he just gets the pressure distribution right and stuff happens.

post #35 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post

Is there any other way to rotate the ski along an axis from the ankle to the hip socket other than femur rotation in the hip socket?

 

Yes.  You can rotate in the spine, or turn the entire body, and to a lessor extent twist the tib/fib - however none of these will produce the stable upper body that you get from ILS as we see here, and as such these methods are not considered effective, and are thus not taught or activley pursued.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post

When I look at the sequence I am amazed by how easily he controls the angle of the ski to his path by subtle fore aft shifts and edge control.

I think the ski is generating all the turning forces and the skier is not actively rotating the ski..he just gets the pressure distribution right and stuff happens.

 

Letting the ski do the work is not contrary to ILS in any way.  But I would argue that while its true the amount of muscular effort required is not huge (the rest coming from the ski forces), its there, this is evident when the skis are in the air, yet the pivot continues, or in some cases begins (example below at approximatley 15 and 32 seconds).  Further, if you just do pivot slips you will notice the same thing, there is no "straining" level of muscular effort required...it should feel easy.  The amount of effort required at speed for a stivot, doesnt feel that different.

 

post #36 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

 

ILS is rotation about BOTH axis (ie one for each leg).  Its the both that makes it work.  Two pivot points stablize each other,  as for heavily inclinated: how inclinated you are, is actually totally irrelevant, what you are referring to ILS is difficult with a high degree of edge engagment....while perhaps there is a correlation between inclination and edge engagment, not always as can be seen here....there is no edge engagment, he is skidding big time.  A huge part of proper pivoting, is controlling where the pivot happens, we manipulate that through a few things, but fore/aft balance is the major factor (along with a proper rotation in the hip socket, as opposed to a tail push for example), to keep the pivot under foot, its important to have fore/aft balance such that during the skid the force on the tails, matches the tips...hence they are neutral, the only force required to turn the skis, is to over come the "scrubbing"....which isnt that much force at that speed.  You can play with this just doing side slips, you will notice the amount of fore/aft adjustment required is not a huge.  As you ramp up speed and are able to stivot, skid to a carve...you will notice inclination will need to increase to antcipate the edge engaging. 

Dude, I agree with you that the major factor here is fore/aft. Some kind of combination between ILS and feet shuffling.

Inclination is an important factor though. As an extreme example, assume that you have your hip to the ground. An ILS around an axis passing through the hip joint and the foot will move the tips/tails straight up and down. Sure that can have the effect that e.g. the tails engage and makes the skis pivot, but it is only an indirect effect of ILS. So you could say that ILS can be involved for fore/aft manipulation. However, the actual rotation of the ski relative to the body is around an axis passing through the hip and perpendicular to the snow. When you are doing pivot slips this axis is more or less the same as the one passing through the foot, but quite far from it when you are heavily inclined.

Here is the super-stivot from another angle. A lot of unweighted ILS between frame 2 and three to bring the ski from flat to edged 90 degrees in the other direction. Not so much between 4 and 5 when the skis are rotated back out again.

A very advanced version of the falling leave :-)

post #37 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Dude, I agree with you that the major factor here is fore/aft. Some kind of combination between ILS and feet shuffling.

Inclination is an important factor though. As an extreme example, assume that you have your hip to the ground. An ILS around an axis passing through the hip joint and the foot will move the tips/tails straight up and down. Sure that can have the effect that e.g. the tails engage and makes the skis pivot, but it is only an indirect effect of ILS. So you could say that ILS can be involved for fore/aft manipulation. However, the actual rotation of the ski relative to the body is around an axis passing through the hip and perpendicular to the snow. When you are doing pivot slips this axis is more or less the same as the one passing through the foot, but quite far from it when you are heavily inclined.

Here is the super-stivot from another angle. A lot of unweighted ILS between frame 2 and three to bring the ski from flat to edged 90 degrees in the other direction. Not so much between 4 and 5 when the skis are rotated back out again.

A very advanced version of the falling leave :-)

 

Yes I think you are correct here.  ILS is definatley used to create the steering angle...but not "undoing" it.  As you pointed out,the highly inclined position wont allow the "undo" to really work.  This a good montage as it shows the "undoing".  In my minds eye I see the skier and skis moving from frame 4 to 5 as a unit (ie the degree of "counter" between the skis and the skier stays constant), and everything moves to the line and then engadges. 

post #38 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

 

Yes I think you are correct here.  ILS is definatley used to create the steering angle...but not "undoing" it.  As you pointed out,the highly inclined position wont allow the "undo" to really work.  This a good montage as it shows the "undoing".  In my minds eye I see the skier and skis moving from frame 4 to 5 as a unit (ie the degree of "counter" between the skis and the skier stays constant), and everything moves to the line and then engadges. 

Also some of the undoing is likely from the ankle. In frame 4 the boot seem compressed, yet the tips are off the snow. Probably this shot is taken milliseconds after the tips were released so that the boot has not uncompressed yet. In frame 5 it seems the boot is more upright.

 

BTW, I suppose the clip from Sölden is on 35m skis? If so thats some pretty amazing skiing on such straight skis. He will be hard to catch this year.

post #39 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Also some of the undoing is likely from the ankle. In frame 4 the boot seem compressed, yet the tips are off the snow. Probably this shot is taken milliseconds after the tips were released so that the boot has not uncompressed yet. In frame 5 it seems the boot is more upright.

 

 

 

I noticed that in the boots too, but I believe that is more a function of milliseconds rather then extending the ankle.  When you start a normal turn, the pressure builds slowly (relativley speaking), and you want to get the skis engaging, and coming around clean, and you have very little pressue to work with (due to being in the high C), but here you are going from full skid to a pure carve from extreme steering angle, so the loads are almost instant, plus you are in much deeper in the turn, so lots of pressure to work with....likely need to dump some... I cant see wanting to pressure the tips in that scenario, instead you want to be much more centered to get the whole ski working.  I think you need to look at 4-6 rather then just 4-5 to get a sense of the moves.

post #40 of 42

Right, I didn't mean that the move is done with the ankle.  The ankle must move because because of the releasing of the tension in the boot, but its not the ankle plantar that causes this releasing.

post #41 of 42

Just to clarify, stiveting is not often intended to dump speed.  Rather, it is a movement racers use under certain very specific circumstances that maximizes the omnipresent tradeoff between distance and friction (the only two things in the universe about which the clock really cares).  In the racing context the circumstances that call for stiveting are pretty limited, e.g. steep pitch, large offset, typically on firm injected surfaces.  Stiveting under such circumstances allows a much shorter distance traveled than the pure carving alone would otherwise allow, and the energy potential present in steeper hills sufficiently negates the higher friction caused by skidding such that the tradeoff is worth the ultimate time result. 

post #42 of 42
The original discussion has no merit... In the photo though, i believe that is Ted the shred and his own commentary on youtube says that stivoting is not a function of him wanting to, but him having too because it was steep.
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