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Guess I'm a believer now

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 

I so wanted to believe that LA was not a drug cheat.  I know, by all accounts he isn't a very nice guy, but he was a helluva bike racer.  But I guess it is time to face what appear to be pretty absolute facts, plus Big George has admitted to doping.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19903716

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19903814

 

Oh well, I like Wiggins, even if he does have dufus sideburns.

post #2 of 22

And somewhere, Greg LeMond is smiling as he -- once again -- will be the only American to win the TdF.

 

Once Lance's former teammates started either admitting their use of PEDs or were outright caught while a member of other teams; well, at that time, I pretty much decided that one day, "they" were going to Get Lance.

post #3 of 22
The storm really calls into question the entire "lean" movement that LA & others in cycling forged.
post #4 of 22

Here's the BIG book, with all the details

 

http://velonews.competitor.com/files/2012/10/Reasoned-Decision.pdf

post #5 of 22

Yaaawwn...is it ski season yet?

post #6 of 22

And the news is?

post #7 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taxman View Post

And the news is?

The news is that 10 years of a fairly major sport (at least in Europe and in certain parts of the US) just went down the drain...  What in means is that in some years 7 out of 10 top finishes in the biggest race in the sport (TdF) were confirmed drug cheats...  Its not exactly super fresh news, and but the magnitude of the problem is still stunning....

post #8 of 22

A doctor friend of mine and I were discussing this a couple of months ago.  He brought up an interesting point; rather than spending all this money in investigations and a concerted effort to strip LA of his titles, the money would be better spent gaining his cooperation in determining how his 'treatments' may have aided in his recovery from cancer. Really, when you look at it, here's a guy who's cancer had metastasized throughout his body, including brain lesions, and with a 40% chance of survival and yet, he not only recovers but goes on to win (albeit with artificial help, which is my friend's point) seven TdF's over a bunch of other drug cheaters.  Even with the artificial help, winning that many races over others who are cheating is a pretty impressive feat.  But, back to my friend's point, what was he doing that would allow that kind of miraculous recovery and what could the medical establishment learn from his experience that could be broadly applied over other affected cancer patients?  It was an interesting thought-train and leads to some interesting questions.

post #9 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldMember View Post

A doctor friend of mine and I were discussing this a couple of months ago.  He brought up an interesting point; rather than spending all this money in investigations and a concerted effort to strip LA of his titles, the money would be better spent gaining his cooperation in determining how his 'treatments' may have aided in his recovery from cancer...

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/drug-information/DR602077

 

They already use anabolics and other "banned" substances for medical purposes.  LA clearly was a disciplined doper, but there's no indication he has great technical knowledge, anyway.  Certainly debriefing dirty docs who have helped with doping could yield some interesting insights.

 

One of the most interesting Qs for LA is whether doping caused his cancer to begin with.  Circumstantially, it seems likely that the fact that he was in the middle of a cycle caused him to delay getting treatment at very least.  Since LA made such a performance leap in his mid-late teens, doctors certainly could go back and debrief to get a timeline of what was happening with each performance jump and/or body reworking.  There's no way to get good data from that type of thing, but it at least could make for an interesting read. 

post #10 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldMember View Post

A doctor friend of mine and I were discussing this a couple of months ago.  He brought up an interesting point; rather than spending all this money in investigations and a concerted effort to strip LA of his titles, the money would be better spent gaining his cooperation in determining how his 'treatments' may have aided in his recovery from cancer. Really, when you look at it, here's a guy who's cancer had metastasized throughout his body, including brain lesions, and with a 40% chance of survival and yet, he not only recovers but goes on to win (albeit with artificial help, which is my friend's point) seven TdF's over a bunch of other drug cheaters.  Even with the artificial help, winning that many races over others who are cheating is a pretty impressive feat.  But, back to my friend's point, what was he doing that would allow that kind of miraculous recovery and what could the medical establishment learn from his experience that could be broadly applied over other affected cancer patients?  It was an interesting thought-train and leads to some interesting questions.

 

Sample size of 1 is useless data.

post #11 of 22

Wow, congratulations USADA for proving something the whole world already knew, and for the most part had put it behind them. On last night's Canadian National news they interviewed a former Canadian teamate and he categorically said that there might have been a dozen guys in the peleton that rode clean and that might be high. So 90% or more of the field doped in one form or another and the USPS and Lance just happened to be the best at it. Pretty much still a level playing field if they were all doped up. Not that doping is right on any level, but go after the rest of the field and give the vicoties to the guys who didn't, not some other doper.

 

The only reason they USPS and LA got caught is that the cycling "omerta" fell apart when Landis got caught. Anyone of them who says they are doing it to clear their conscience and to do the right thing blah, blah, blah are full of shit. They're going down redhanded so they are going to take as many with them as they can and if they take the biggest down, then all of a sudden the attention is off them.

 

Landis and few others might just wake up with a severed headset in their beds and a set of cement cycling shoes.

post #12 of 22
Even with the testimony of his ex-teamates (all cheaters & liars) how can they prove him guilty when he never tested positive? Thats like convicting someone of murder without a body! I don't doubt he doped but everyone he competed against did as well. If he is striped of his seven TDF titles who will get them, those finishing 2nd, 3rd and beyond have also been convicted of doping. They should have just let it go at this point, he wasn't even racing anymore. I is just another black eye for the sport and tarnishs the name of someone that has done a lot of good for others. They should have used the money spent on the witch hunt to come up with bettermethods of testing, obviously they don't work.
post #13 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckwild View Post

Thats like convicting someone of murder without a body!

 

Uh, you realize this has happened quite a few times, right?  A corpse can be completely destroyed.

post #14 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckwild View Post

Even with the testimony of his ex-teamates (all cheaters & liars) *how can they prove him guilty when he never tested positive*? Thats like convicting someone of murder without a body! I don't doubt he doped but everyone he competed against did as well. If he is striped of his seven TDF titles who will get them, those finishing 2nd, 3rd and beyond have also been convicted of doping. They should have just let it go at this point, he wasn't even racing anymore. I is just another black eye for the sport and tarnishs the name of someone that has done a lot of good for others. They should have used the money spent on the witch hunt to come up with bettermethods of testing, obviously they don't work.

Well, the proved it by retro-analyzing some samples that show abnormal blood patterns, they proved it by a very detailed description of how they avoided being tested, and they proved it by lining up many witnesses.  That conclusion sucks for Lance, but, tough...   I must applaud USADA for doing a very thorough job.  I don't know if you read the whole 200+ page documents, but it is a very entertaining read.  Basically Lance, Bruyneel, and a few others ran a mafia-style shop at US Postal that institutionalized doping, coerced people into taking drugs, and, basically, walked over the rules and regulations daily.  All hallmarks of a criminal enterprise.  Mind you they were very handsomely rewarded for that with prize money, sponsorships, etc.    In the hindsight, that was obvious- how else could one team have 4-5 people at the bottom of the last climb that then would ride off the rest of the peloton, day after day... For some weird coincidence, every rider who left that team and went to another team was caught in a positive test a year or maximum two year after.  Remember Heras, Landis, the list goes on and on...   

 

Yes, it may suck for the sport, but I think it sucks a lot more for the handful of guys who raced the last decade clean and simply just din't have a chance... their whole career basically went down the drain because the sport was overrun by institutionalized cheating.    This investigation is a very good thing for the sport, even if it only shows people that you can't trump the rules forever, the chickens will come home to roost eventually.   By all accounts it maybe not over.  The real story may be in the Postal ties to UCI and buying off the test results.  The next heads to roll may be the McQuade and Verbruggen (the UCI officials).      

 

And for tarnishing Lance's name- he thoroughly deserves it for lying to the public for a decade.  If you are a public figure and you sell yourself as a model of virtue you have a bigger responsibility.  We rightly eviscerate John Edwards for cheating, but somehow Lance is above the fray?  I don't doubt his cancer advocacy, but by all accounts the guy is a dick in his personal and professional lives (despite his manufactured Mother Theresa image), and by some accounts Livestrong has a rather high overhead for a charity, so I won't be surprised if Lance is doing it not only for altruistic reasons, it probably is a rather nice tax write-off.  Also, he has a very nice life, very nice nest egg, so I don't pity the guy a single bit.   He can still drink his beers on the beach for decades, he just won't be a St. Lance everyone knew.   And the guys who tried to do it clean are still wrenching department store bikes in the back of some no-name bike shops... 

post #15 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn View Post

Excellent post

post #16 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn View Post

  

 

Yes, it may suck for the sport, but I think it sucks a lot more for the handful of guys who raced the last decade clean and simply just din't have a chance... their whole career basically went down the drain because the sport was overrun by institutionalized cheating.    This investigation is a very good thing for the sport, even if it only shows people that you can't trump the rules forever, the chickens will come home to roost eventually.   By all accounts it maybe not over.  The real story may be in the Postal ties to UCI and buying off the test results.  The next heads to roll may be the McQuade and Verbruggen (the UCI officials).      

 

And for tarnishing Lance's name- he thoroughly deserves it for lying to the public for a decade.  If you are a public figure and you sell yourself as a model of virtue you have a bigger responsibility.  We rightly eviscerate John Edwards for cheating, but somehow Lance is above the fray?  I don't doubt his cancer advocacy, but by all accounts the guy is a dick in his personal and professional lives (despite his manufactured Mother Theresa image), and by some accounts Livestrong has a rather high overhead for a charity, so I won't be surprised if Lance is doing it not only for altruistic reasons, it probably is a rather nice tax write-off.  Also, he has a very nice life, very nice nest egg, so I don't pity the guy a single bit.   He can still drink his beers on the beach for decades, he just won't be a St. Lance everyone knew.   And the guys who tried to do it clean are still wrenching department store bikes in the back of some no-name bike shops... 

 

roflmao.gifroflmao.gifroflmao.gifroflmao.gif

 

....there has NEVER been a clean peloton....Mercks doped, Hinault doped, Indurain doped, Anquetil doped....Lemond doped.....let's dig up those corpses and convict them to

 

They've always cheated in sports to win. I don't care that they busted Pharmstrong but to pretend that it was better in the past and better now is laughable.  The biological passport has made the use of EPO (which is by far the most effective form of endurance sport doping invented so far) less prevalent but that will just shift the cheaters to another protocol and system that will take a while for the testing procedures to catch up and then the riders will move on to something new...

 

Once again it just doesn't matter but hey it gives a bunch of people something to talk about so I'm sure it's worth spending money on....

post #17 of 22

You can argue that Merckx and Hinault are a different case- there was no testing, and no prohibition of doping per say, so they were not breaking the rules (although they were clearly unethical).  Pharmstrong era is different because people were knowingly breaking the rules, lying about it (and potentially bribing officials to cover up positive tests).  

 

I am making these arguments, but a lot of what you say it true and people in cycling must feel pretty powerless about the doping problem.   It is clear that Tom Simpson's death has not taught anyone anything.... It will take at least a decade until someone could win the TDF in a dominant fashion and not get an immediate suspicion of some pharma hanky-panky.  

 

P.S. In retrospect, maybe nowadays it is not possible to dominate a grand tour w/o pharma help.  Everythign I remember came from dopers, Pharmstrong, Basso in the Giro, Heras in Vuelta. Landis in TdF, you name it  And every race someone has "a bad day" (while absorbing the next blood injection) and the next day miraculously flies up the mountain pass and gets 10 minutes on everyone.   That's bullish&t.  Every time I bonk on a ride I feel it way into the next few days, why do those guys have to feel differently?   One penalty for clean cycling would be reduced spectator value... still, small price to pay... 

post #18 of 22

"Pharmstrong" - heh.  I like that.

post #19 of 22

By the way, everyone who is interested in the inside perspective can check out Cyclingnews.com forums and search for posts by Jonathan Vaughters, a former US Postal rider and the current manager of Team Garmin-Sharp.   He has some pretty interesting things to say and its pretty remarkable to have a DS for a major ProTour team talk on the internet forums.  To make your life easier: his forum handle is jv1973, and that was revealed by CyclingNews a few months ago, so I'm not divulging any secrets.  

 

Also, read the afidavits attached to the USADA reasoned decision, this is where the real interesting stuff about LA and UCI is...  


Edited by alexzn - 10/13/12 at 12:14am
post #20 of 22

So the only way to save the sport is to kill it? 

post #21 of 22

Sort of like Chemo for cancer - poison the body to kill the cancer and hope that the person doesn't die.

post #22 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post

So the only way to save the sport is to kill it? 

You are not killing the sport, I continue to ride my bike, and I know plenty of others who would.  But I think you have to kill the culture that forces people to dope because otherwise they would never win anything, or their teammates would miss out on prize money or sponsorship.  When people juice on their own accord, that's a tragedy, but ultimately it is an individual transgression, when the system forces you to dope, that's a much bigger problem.  

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