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LF4 waxing help

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 

I have a very basic waxing quesiton;  Just how the heck do you lay down a good wax job with LF4 ?  

Is it supposed to be scraped while it's still hot?    I've tried scraping with when is has cooled, but it looks to me that I just shear off sections and leave nothing behind but the gloss of base prep wax.

I'm using this on Alpine skis.. 

 

Help.     Thanks!

post #2 of 28

use a fresh bbq brush to "score" the surface of the LF4 wax from tip to tail. this will allow you to scrape the wax easily without ripping it off in chunks.

 

make sure that you are using a sharp plastic scraper.

 

jim

post #3 of 28

The 4 series swix is not the easiest wax to apply properly.

 

  • I rec that you need a very good iron (little fluctuation in temp), and set it to the right temp (300F I think - off the top of my head.  it's on the pkg) in order to use the cold swix waxes.  Using fibrelene inbetween the iron and ski will help prevent overheating the base.  It should scrape off in more of a powder form if you have ironed it in well, and not chips.
  • I prefer to iron in a softer base layer first - 6 or 7 series wax, scrape and brush very lightly.  Then, (actually before you base wax) take a cheese grater, grind up the LF4 into powder and put it into a spice shaker. Then iron the lightly scraped ski (set at proper temp for base wax) in one motion (tip to tail) so that you have a 2-4 inch wet trail of wax on the base, and with your other hand sprinkle the LF4 on the molten wax behind the iron and work your way to the tail.  Then turn iron up to 290, and with fibrelene inbetween, carefully iron in the powder into the base wax.  Without scraping you can repeat the iron sprinkle process a few times, and eventually turn iron up to 300.  Be careful, its easy to damage the base, and in severe cases you will "bubble" the base if you overheat the ski.

 

Good Luck!

 

Does that make sense?

post #4 of 28

good stuff all of what he said below and yes it is ok to scrape it before it cools - it hardens so quickly there is no need to let it cool because wax penetration is as good as its going to get

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post

The 4 series swix is not the easiest wax to apply properly.

 

  • I rec that you need a very good iron (little fluctuation in temp), and set it to the right temp (300F I think - off the top of my head.  it's on the pkg) in order to use the cold swix waxes.  Using fibrelene inbetween the iron and ski will help prevent overheating the base.  It should scrape off in more of a powder form if you have ironed it in well, and not chips.
  • I prefer to iron in a softer base layer first - 6 or 7 series wax, scrape and brush very lightly.  Then, (actually before you base wax) take a cheese grater, grind up the LF4 into powder and put it into a spice shaker. Then iron the lightly scraped ski (set at proper temp for base wax) in one motion (tip to tail) so that you have a 2-4 inch wet trail of wax on the base, and with your other hand sprinkle the LF4 on the molten wax behind the iron and work your way to the tail.  Then turn iron up to 290, and with fibrelene inbetween, carefully iron in the powder into the base wax.  Without scraping you can repeat the iron sprinkle process a few times, and eventually turn iron up to 300.  Be careful, its easy to damage the base, and in severe cases you will "bubble" the base if you overheat the ski.

 

Good Luck!

 

Does that make sense?

post #5 of 28

Chenzo already nailed it with the fiberlene.

With hard waxes, less is more.  Crayon, instead of dripping, and make a few passes with the fiberlene.  With experience, you get to the point that one or two passes with the scraper is all you need, and you won't be scraping off huge flakes of wax.  Less wax and less work.

post #6 of 28
Thread Starter 

Chenzo,

    Yes, Makes good sense.   I just watched a youtube where the guy had grated a harder wax to powder and then applied it.   It did not point out that he was mixing it with his prevously applied base wax however (which he was).   Thanks for the help!   Looking forward to trying this!

 

Jim,   Using a BBQ brush to score the wax is another good idea.   I had been using a brass brush, but it was taking a LOT of time and effort.

 

Incognito,   A Long time ago, crayoning was how I applied all waxes.... got away from if for some reason.   I will try that method again too.   Seems to me that crayoning might work well for the occasional touch-up sesson.

Thanks to all that responded!    I learn a lot every time I get on Epic.


Edited by WallDiver7 - 9/13/12 at 8:12pm
post #7 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by WallDiver7 View Post

Chenzo,

    Yes, Makes good sense.   I just watched a youtube where the guy had grated a harder wax to powder and then applied it.   It did not point out that he was mixing it with his prevously applied base wax however (which he was).   Thanks for the help!   Looking forward to trying this!

 

LF4 is so hard that you will need either a box grater or a table-mounted rotary grater.   

 

Hand-held rotary graters (squeeze press type) are way too flimsy.     If you use a box grater, make sure it has the _small_ round holes and not just the star-shaped punchouts.    Mind your knuckles.

 

 

If you decide to go the crayon route, search here for the "hot touch" crayon method.

post #8 of 28
Thread Starter 

What wax should be under this LF4?  (For recreational skiing)    Because I'm rather cheap, I've used Gulf paraffin wax as a my base prep wax.   I have wondered if I shouldn't be using a higher temperature LF wax instead laying down the LF4 over a hydrocarbon based wax.    Any comments?

post #9 of 28

LF4 is base wax, so normally it doesn't need anything below it.

post #10 of 28

To help you work the LF4 in like Chenzo said?      CH6 or  Maplus Race Base Medium work OK.   

post #11 of 28

If you're a rec skier you are wasting your money on LF.  There is so little fluoro, there is really no advantage compared to the large price difference (if they were the same or closer in price, ok).  Go with a CH6 - easier to apply but still hard for the cold - then on the days you need colder or protection near the edges, add CH3 powder to the CH6.

 

Check out the video:

http://www.racewax.com/product/FA-1216/SWIX-CH3-Cold-Powder-Ski-Wax.html

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WallDiver7 View Post

What wax should be under this LF4?  (For recreational skiing)    Because I'm rather cheap, I've used Gulf paraffin wax as a my base prep wax.   I have wondered if I shouldn't be using a higher temperature LF wax instead laying down the LF4 over a hydrocarbon based wax.    Any comments?

post #12 of 28

I use Fiberlene when I wax with CH4 because there's no point in "trying" to scrape that stuff.

post #13 of 28

Uh ya, LF4 is not for rec skiing.  Do a search on this site and find the best single wax for your area, and use that.  You can't go wrong with Holmenkol Betamix ('cept in warmer temps).  I'm sure others can chime in with their favourite single wax for western conditions.  Gulf wax ??  I don't care how cheap a person is, if you are going through the trouble of waxing your skis, use something good.

post #14 of 28
As has been said, save yourself money (and some effort. In scraping) and use holmenkol ultra (blue) for cold weather. Excellent wax for this and fast ! (and if it. Is that cold fluoro is of. No real advantage). Once it warms up a bit go to beta (red ) as chenzo suggests The beauty of holmenkol, for 95% of skiers you can cover everything with beta, ultra and alpha or combinations of them
post #15 of 28

Dr. D particpated twice in the conversation and people are mentioning other products, but not his.  He seems to offer expertise without the sales pitch (I am not an expert in this area) .  The community should look out for its supporters.  I have been very happy with Dr D in terms of service and pricing.  I have spoken with him and he led me to a great deal on vices he had that were not on his web site as he only had one set left. 

 

Just sayin' 

post #16 of 28

I would do just that ...but I haven't used his stuff, let alone in the temp range being discussed.

post #17 of 28
Thread Starter 

Chenzo,    What is LF4 intended for?    I don't pretend to be knowledgeable in waxing, but please explain what's wrong with using the cheapest form of a hydrocarbon wax (Gulf) to saturate bases, and then building from there with harder waxes?  I think of the Gulf as my base "conditioner"; is my perception/understanding off?   I will assume that by a "better" wax you would mean a BP88..  or something similar (and then build from there)?

 

Doctor D,   Thanks for the video link.   The CH6, going to the CH3 powder sounds interesting.    I'll try that this season.

 

ScotsSkier,    Thanks for the alternatives, but I need to stay with one line of wax until I understand it ,, in different conditions.

post #18 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by handhdad View Post

Dr. D particpated twice in the conversation and people are mentioning other products, but not his.  He seems to offer expertise without the sales pitch (I am not an expert in this area) .  The community should look out for its supporters.  I have been very happy with Dr D in terms of service and pricing. 

 

+1 - straight shooter, good products.

 

Interesting product on his website -- Swix CH5 -- which "offers the durability of a CH4, without the application hassle we all wrestle with": http://www.racewax.com/product/RD-3516/A-Swix-CH5-Ski-Wax---Exclusive-and-Scarce-CH-5.html . If I didn't have two years' supply of CH4 I'd be all over this, even at the premium price.  

 

As a rec skier in the northeast, CH4 and/or CH3 powder near the edges is now a regular part of the routine to avoid constant base burn from refrozen artificial snow.  But it's such a pain in the neck to work with, especially with multiple skis to prep, that I'd bite the bullet for CH5 (and certainly would try Dr. D's CH6 + CH3 powder recommendation).

post #19 of 28

BP88 is softer than most batches of Gulf wax and wets out bases better.    That or CH10 would be good alternatives to Gulf for prep wax/storage.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WallDiver7 View Post

 I will assume that by a "better" wax you would mean a BP88..  or something similar (and then build from there)?

post #20 of 28

The only place you would really want any CH4/LF4/HF4 is on the edges, you'd have to be loco to wax your whole base with that hard stuff.  Even then it's not worth the extra effort. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by handhdad View Post

Dr. D particpated twice in the conversation and people are mentioning other products, but not his.  He seems to offer expertise without the sales pitch (I am not an expert in this area) .  The community should look out for its supporters.  I have been very happy with Dr D in terms of service and pricing.  I have spoken with him and he led me to a great deal on vices he had that were not on his web site as he only had one set left. 

 

Just sayin' 

 

As for helping Dr. D, well I've never gotten any wax from him cause i get the cheapest wax i can find and that's usually local.  I'm sure his stuff is da bomb.

post #21 of 28

No matter how good you are at railing,  sometimes you just have to spell locomotive with a little extra 'loco'.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhh View Post

The only place you would really want any CH4/LF4/HF4 is on the edges, you'd have to be loco to wax your whole base with that hard stuff. 

 

*goes, off whistling  'Casey Jones'*

post #22 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by WallDiver7 View Post

Chenzo,    What is LF4 intended for?    I don't pretend to be knowledgeable in waxing, but please explain what's wrong with using the cheapest form of a hydrocarbon wax (Gulf) to saturate bases, and then building from there with harder waxes?  I think of the Gulf as my base "conditioner"; is my perception/understanding off?   I will assume that by a "better" wax you would mean a BP88..  or something similar (and then build from there)?

Doctor D,   Thanks for the video link.   The CH6, going to the CH3 powder sounds interesting.    I'll try that this season.

ScotsSkier,    Thanks for the alternatives, but I need to stay with one line of wax until I understand it ,, in different conditions.
[/qu
ote]



That is the beauty of holmenkol, much easier to understand....

And yes, doctor d is a good guy to buy from

Edited by ScotsSkier - 9/24/12 at 5:20pm
post #23 of 28

Cold waxes really need to be in the base, not on it.  Scrape a bit warm. and brush well.  Then put the ski outside and let it get cold and brush again.  I've heard the contracting base expells some wax, and while I doubt that has been demonstrated, the second brushing produces a fair bit of wax powder.  The XC skaters from Colorado are really good at this, and Start Green has been a long time favorite.

 

A warm base wax such a parafin will blend with the cold wax and slow you down.  Two or three waxings with CH4  would be far better.

 

LF4 will often be slower than CH4 unlss it is overcast or cold fog.  Any cold night with stars out calls for a CH wax.

post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post


LF4 will often be slower than CH4 unlss it is overcast or cold fog.  Any cold night with stars out calls for a CH wax.

 

Or unless there's a large body of water nearby.       I am convinced dry new-fallen snow acts as an ambient humidity sponge next to large bodies of water.

 

(At LF4 temps that does mean salt or brackish water, yes).


Edited by cantunamunch - 9/24/12 at 9:46am
post #25 of 28
Thread Starter 

Newfydog .....   I thought I was helping by conditioning the base with a soft wax and then applying the colder wax on top of that.    OK, I'll stop that practice and just start applying the WOTD from the start.   (But for storage purposes during the summer, Would it still be a good idea to coat the bases in paraffin and scrape/brush completely out in the fall??)    Doc D stated earlier that the CH6 base, with an overlay of CH3 on colder days would be good.   I will assume that the CH6 is a hard enough wax as not to slow down the CH3 much when blended?

 

So, Would everyone agree that starting with a CH6 wax and then applying harder waxes on top would be a good basic waxing MO (practice)??   

 

Note.....  Colorado and Utah,  where I ski,  have VERY low humidity conditions most of the winter... with the exception of the big dump storms.   I don't really know what eastern skiers mean when they mention "ice"...   just kidding.

 

"LF4 will often be slower than CH4 unlss it is overcast or cold fog. Any cold night with stars out calls for a CH wax."      I didn't know this.    As said earlier, there is no reason for me to choose LF4 over CH4.   Good to know.  smile.gif

post #26 of 28

A national team member told me they pay attention to "the recent wax history of a ski".  If it has been waxed for warm, it won't be ready for cold until multiple waxings with cold wax.

 

I would think CH6 would qualify as a cold one.

 

For storage, I would use whatever is cheap and in reach.

post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by WallDiver7 View Post

Newfydog .....   I thought I was helping by conditioning the base with a soft wax and then applying the colder wax on top of that.

It is like Newfydog wrote. Waxes mix, and using warm wax as base for cold wax makes no sense. Well sometimes it does, but not because of "easier" handling, but because mixture of that can actually be faster then cold wax alone (back in my days, one of best combinations for cold dry snow, -15c to -20c, was 1/3 of Toko HF Dibloc yellow and 2/3 of Toko HF Blue Dibloc with cold Swix CeraF powder on top, and not only Blue Dibloc, which was officially made for such temperatures).

If you didn't find out this mixture by testing, and you use it just because of "easier handling", then it's not the way to do it. Warm wax is (normally) not intended for cold snow, and mixing them will (normally) produce lower speed.

All those "wax cycling" is hype which noone really do it, and it doesn't bring anything, except lot of work for nothing.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post

A national team member told me they pay attention to "the recent wax history of a ski".  If it has been waxed for warm, it won't be ready for cold until multiple waxings with cold wax.

It's true. One thing is that, especially in xc skiing, where wax is much much more important then in any of alpine events, everyone has several pairs of skis with different structures, so normally skis which are used for cold snow, are (almost) never used for warm snow anyway due warm structure (and vise versa). And another issue is lots of warm wax in base from previous waxing. That's also reason why I have been using appropriate wax as transportation wax too... cold HF waxes for cold skis, warm HF waxes for warm skis.

But this goes for WC, not for some recreational skiers, where most of them don't have more then pair or two of skis, and where using HF waxes for transportation wax is "a bit" out of budget :)

post #28 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by ts01 View Post

If I didn't have two years' supply of CH4 I'd be all over this, even at the premium price.  

 

If you want to exchange CH4 for CH5, make me a proposal, I'd be happy to get you a wax you would prefer.

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