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Cabrio Vs. Clam Shell - Page 3

post #61 of 80

Coming late to the party and throwing my .02 in the mix (you'll probably want to give me a penny back)

 

I skied in the Krypton Kryzma for 3 years and loved the playful nature of that boot. 

Last year I switched to the Tecnica Bushwacker (see my review in my signature)which is a 110 flex, little wider last than the Kryzma, but a better overall shape for my foot.

While was training for my PSIA L1 I found the Bushwacker to be much better for rolling over on the edge of the ski and easier to demonstrate with.  Yes, I did switch to the Kryzma just to compare the two and while I found the playful nature of the Krypton and passion for finding little things to pop off of, I liked the performance of the Tecnica Bushwacker much better for performance and precision. 

 

*One more thing, for teaching, I really really loved the walk feature on the Bushwacker, especially since I hiked up and down the bunny slope about a million times on Christmas day last year. 

 

**The shape of my foot and fit of this boot for me is a whole different talk show topic, and I'll probably get another boot this year to compliment the slackcountry boot and it will probably be an inferno or spitfire or maybe even the new Kryzma with the shapely shell, and I'll probably grind the heck out of it just like I did in the Kryzma. 

post #62 of 80
Thread Starter 

The boots are tried the other night were an older version (Tecnica Race 130) of the boots that now have both of these features.  Does anyone know if this answers the painful on/off without comprimising performance?

 

This appears to be a slightly softer material at the instep on one side of the boot sp the skin isn't scraped off during entry/exit.

 

 

And this is to let the ladder catch get out of the way to aid getting on and off. 

post #63 of 80

And to really back up what L&AirC said about speed, I've got some video of ScotsSkier from Mt. Rose last season...  He's the guy who turns into an instant "speck" in the lens because in the blink of an eye he's already half way down the mountain.  So he's no stranger to speed, but clearly benefits from finding a way to use the boot flex to improve ski feel.  Of course a 130 isn't a soft boot by any means (for most manufacturers).

 

So I think what's come out as a conclusion in the last set of posts is that your shell preference depends on the type of skiing you enjoy and the type of skier you are.  Neither boot is inherently better or worse depending on the context it is being used in, but everyone certainly has their own strong opinions for their favorites.  This thread started in a pursuit to better understand the differences between the designs and how those differences translate to skiing and teaching.  I think the differences in mechanics and how they relate to skiing have been fairly well documented to this point, but I expect that this thread will continue to have life as the season picks up.  I saw that this thread has even been featured on the front page for the past couple days.

post #64 of 80
 
 
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

This appears to be a slightly softer material at the instep on one side of the boot sp the skin isn't scraped off during entry/exit.

 

 

 

Segbrown has the Tecnica Inferno 130 with this feature and I got a chance to check it out, but I've never skied the boot.  What Tecnica did is use softer plastic in the "bear claw" area to reduce the chances of getting bitten during entry/exit.  It does seem to work, but I'm not sure about its effect on performance.  Philpug skied the Inferno for quite some time too so maybe he'll chime in.

 
post #65 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler View Post

 
 
 

 

 

Segbrown has the Tecnica Inferno 130 with this feature and I got a chance to check it out, but I've never skied the boot.  What Tecnica did is use softer plastic in the "bear claw" area to reduce the chances of getting bitten during entry/exit.  It does seem to work, but I'm not sure about its effect on performance.  Philpug skied the Inferno for quite some time too so maybe he'll chime in.

 

 

Yes! It works! Compared to taking off the Langes, when I wanted to cry most times, there was only one day when I wanted to cry with the Tecnica, and it was a very cold day, when I tried to take off a boot immediately after skiing to the car. Usually I guess I go in and putz around, or walk somewhere, or go to the bar, or whatever ... this time I needed to get back down to Denver for parent-teacher conferences, and I literally got right into the car and took off the boot 30 sec from the slope, and it was quite painful. So since it was my right boot, I decided not to take off the left boot until it was warmer, and drove home with one ski boot on. (Actually, I think I stopped for gas somewhere, didn't drive the ENTIRE way home with one boot on...)

 

But that is a long way of saying, Yes! it works! (usually)  My Langes always bit me, warm, cold, whatever.

post #66 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post

 

Yes! It works! Compared to taking off the Langes, when I wanted to cry most times, there was only one day when I wanted to cry with the Tecnica, and it was a very cold day, when I tried to take off a boot immediately after skiing to the car. Usually I guess I go in and putz around, or walk somewhere, or go to the bar, or whatever ... this time I needed to get back down to Denver for parent-teacher conferences, and I literally got right into the car and took off the boot 30 sec from the slope, and it was quite painful. So since it was my right boot, I decided not to take off the left boot until it was warmer, and drove home with one ski boot on. (Actually, I think I stopped for gas somewhere, didn't drive the ENTIRE way home with one boot on...)

 

But that is a long way of saying, Yes! it works! (usually)  My Langes always bit me, warm, cold, whatever.

 

Thanks for chiming in.  You stated it works for "on and off" which is great.  What are your thoughts on performance/fit? It looks like it might be in a position to not impede performance.  Did you notice anything that you would say "That's because of the Quick Instep" or something along those lines.  If you say "Once in the boot, I couldn't tell the difference."  That gets high marks from me. 

 

Through the years my feet have put up with more than they should have and I'm trying to make up for that now.

post #67 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

The boots are tried the other night were an older version (Tecnica Race 130) of the boots that now have both of these features.  Does anyone know if this answers the painful on/off without comprimising performance?

 

This appears to be a slightly softer material at the instep on one side of the boot sp the skin isn't scraped off during entry/exit.

 

 

And this is to let the ladder catch get out of the way to aid getting on and off. 

speaking from someone who's been in and out of the Tecnica Inferno and the Nordica Spitfire, (similar boots)  The Quick InStep does make a difference.    The Hinged Instep may make another difference but its not a difference I noticed, or maybe I did and didn't know it. 

post #68 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

 

Thanks for chiming in.  You stated it works for "on and off" which is great.  What are your thoughts on performance/fit? It looks like it might be in a position to not impede performance.  Did you notice anything that you would say "That's because of the Quick Instep" or something along those lines.  If you say "Once in the boot, I couldn't tell the difference."  That gets high marks from me. 

 

Through the years my feet have put up with more than they should have and I'm trying to make up for that now.

 

I don't think there are any performance issues. The only thing I can think of is probably not related, but it might be: I love these boots, but I had a hell of a time with the stock liners. Specifically, the tongues kept migrating around to the outside of the boots, exposing a seam or maybe it was the edge of the liner tongue, whatever it was, I was getting bruising above each ankle on the medial side. THe Quick Instep material is on the medial side, so maybe it had something to do with this? But I doubt it. We tried and tried, padded and padded  even added velcro to the tongues to try to keep them in place, but no matter how tight I would buckle, after a while I ended up with tongues in the wrong place and very painful bruising. After a frigid January day at Mary Jane (moguls and 130 flex not that fun on tender tibias), I threw in the towel and tossed the liners, went with DFP Intuitions, and it solved the problem totally.

 

Incidentally, I asked Phil about this, and one of the Starthaus Jims, and they hadn't seen this problem with anyone else, even after selling and fitting quite a few of those boots. Later that spring I took my son boot shopping, and he had the same exact trouble in the ski shop with a pair of Infernos, the migrating tongue. So perhaps we have oddly shaped tibias, I really don't know ... 

post #69 of 80
Thread Starter 

OK.  I give.  What's a "DFP" Intuition Liner

post #70 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

OK.  I give.  What's a "DFP" Intuition Liner

http://dfpsole.com/products-technology-for-feet/dfp-boot-liners

post #71 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler View Post

""."........"

So I think what's come out as a conclusion in the last set of posts is that your shell preference depends on the type of skiing you enjoy and the type of skier you are.  Neither boot is inherently better or worse depending on the context it is being used in, but everyone certainly has their own strong opinions for their favorites.  This thread started in a pursuit to better understand the differences between the designs and how those differences translate to skiing and teaching.  I think the differences in mechanics and how they relate to skiing have been fairly well documented to this point, but I expect that this thread will continue to have life as the season picks up.  I saw that this thread has even been featured on the front page for the past couple days.

Good summary, been a worthwhile discussion. To me the key takeaway is that it is more than just simply having a well fitting boot if it does not work for your skiing style. That requires an objective assessment of what you want and how you execute.
post #72 of 80

One point that was touched on but never really discussed is the significant difference in technique needed to ski the two types of boots.  I think from a teaching standpoint this needs to be understood because many if not most instructors probably have never skied a 3-piece shell boot.  I am not qualified to talk about this subject, but even an expert skier will find thst 3-piece boots "don't work" until they figure out how to drive them effectively, which is why many people initially dislike them.  There is definitely a learning curve when you crossover.

post #73 of 80
Thread Starter 

Went to Green Mountain Orthotic Lab (GMOL) today at Stratton.  Bill asked me what my goal was and I told him that I wanted as close to perfect as possible, and would be going for L2 this season.  Will race here and there.  He asked me about my skiing and what my trainers have told me (did make me feel like a caged animal but I knew what he meant smile.gif ).  He first went through everything with the Kryptons and then starting mixing in different boots so I could compare the fit.  Sort of like the eye doctor does when determining your prescription; find something that works and then see if you can find something better.  The first comparison was the Salomon X Max 100 (red and black).  Out of the box without my orthotic, it already felt better than the Krypton even though it had a molded liner in it.  Immediately noticed how much more snug it was at the instep.  Tried Lange Race 120 and Technica either 100 or 130. 

 

Ended up first in the Salomon X Max 120 in a 25.5 and Bill suggested we try the 24.5.  He did another shell fit to make sure there was enough room.  I can't believe the out of the box fit on any of them.  Really something.  When we went to the 24.5, I could tell it would work but I needed more toe room. I could even feel the pressure on my heel from my toes not having enough room!  He heat molded the liners while I wore toe caps; much better! Still, the entire toe box (clog?) is tighter.  Tighter as in I probably won't ever be able to wear a ski sock.  I had a thin sock liner on today.  I think it was the ones I got from Intuition.

 

I have to go back when there is snow on the mountain because I need more canting.  Even more than last time.  I'm going to try and ski them a couple days ahead of time to see if I need any more areas touched up (i.e. hot spots).  I don't think I will but I want to make sure.  We didn't heat mold the shell and I don't know there is a need for that yet, but that option remains.  If all goes well, I'll be back there Thanksgiving weekend as long as Stratton is open for skiing just for the canting. 

 

I'm really very impressed on how well it fit my foot and leg.  The heel hold is something else.  The one area I might need work on is the ankle bones.  They feel like they're in two cup holders and are very snug.  I'm concerned about skiing a bit and that area getting irritated.  Not sure at this point though.

 

Bill is top notch too  icon14.gif Along with working with me for more than two hours and making sure to try everything, he not only sold me his last pair of X Max 120 in 24.5, but he sold me the pair he set aside for himself!

 

I thought I was going to end up in the Technicas.  Probably because I kept thinking about the "Quck Instep" and how much easier it would be to get in and out.  I felt completely comfortable with his process of letting my feet discover what fit best.  I'm now in a boot THREE sizes smaller than the boots I bought on my own back in 2008 (pre epic, pre studying).  One size smaller than the Kryptons.  I'm very excited about this.

 

X MAX 120

 

 

I can't offer an opinion on the new Krypton Pro 2, but when it comes to fit, at least for folks with a foot like mine, you'll be hard pressed to find a more snug fit and the fit is way better than the Krypton Pro.   I had thought I would keep the Kryptons for days I might be working races and setting courses.  After having my foot in these, I don't seem me going back to the Kryptons...ever.  Of course I haven't skied these yet so I might be posting something else in a couple weeks.  I also have to change all my bindings as my bsl went from 296 to 285!

post #74 of 80
Welcome to the very small foot club Ken!
post #75 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post

Just a couple of notes on cabrios from a satisfied cabrio owner who's skied two piece designs for over 40 years. And who doesn't see this as growing up and leaving cabrios behind. wink.gif

1) I think Noodler overestimates the "gap" left by the tongue in front of the instep - for instance the grooves only make up about 10% of the surface area of the tongue - and overestimates the nice fit of the two-piece since many have just the opposite issue: Pressure across the front/top of the instep during flex when the ankle is being held tightly enough. This comes about because a 4-buckle doesn't actually have any hold down for the heel. The shell has to keep the heel down all its own, typically by tightening everything up front and using a liner for ankle hold. Which packs out, so IME two-pieces get sloppy faster. And then there's the instep deformation in two-pieces caused by splitting apart during flex pushing against the lower shell. Sorry if I'm not impressed with a two piece as the ultima thule of design. I think it has as many - or because of its simpler design, really just how well plastic spreads - maybe more basic compromises. A two piece is all about its plastic. A three piece is all about its shapes and connections. They both suck, at the end of the day, compared to how well designed skis are.  eek.gif

2) Mudfoot is right, the rear gap allows the sides to move to the rear. That keeps the sides tight against the ankle. Don't use the rear wedges. Use a stiffer tongue. 

3) The shell you're using doesn't exist anymore. The new K2 is the same as the Scorpion, apparently. That doesn't magically make the cabrio-two piece diffs go away, but between these and the Firearrows, I sense a convergence. 

4) If you mainly ski hardpack and race, then obviously you should be in a two piece. The right tool for the task. These days I actually use a nice old set of plugs for that. And you've noted you don't ski trees. But whoever said that cabrios were for massive air and tricks pretty much went for the stereotype rather than the reality. Bumps are far nicer in a three piece, as is powder. Which is why cabrios are so common in folks who ski that stuff. Yep, they're a bit less precise. But they're a bit more predictable in absorbing shocks. Smoother, which allows more fluid skiing in variable terrain. The flex pattern and deeper hinge makes it biomechanically more efficient to do retraction. It all depends on whether you want ultimate feedback from ski to boot to ski. 

5) After enough years, pain matters. Not as in fit, as in taking boots off and getting them on. 

6) All this said, suspect you'd be happier in a two piece. Just wanted to keep the record from being too overwhelmed by two-piece advocates. You know me...biggrin.gif

Love point number 4!
post #76 of 80
 
 
 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

 

'm now in a boot THREE sizes smaller than the boots I bought on my own back in 2008 (pre epic, pre studying).  One size smaller than the Kryptons.  I'm very excited about this.

 

 

I bet there's a very large club of skiers who have all downsized their boots after learning a lot from the collective knowledge about boot fitting here on Epic.  Before Epic participation I was skiing on a 310 BSL, that quickly dropped to a 301 and now I'm in a 293.  So I've dropped a full two sizes.

 

I'm not surprised that with a low instep you're now in the Salomon as opposed to the KR2.  I ended up making the same decision when I went with the Atomic Burner.

 
post #77 of 80
Thread Starter 

I know have about 2.5 days on the X-Max and love them!  I did make a mod to the top of the cuff to accommodate the booster strap. I just cut a couple notches with a roto-zip so the strap would go under the shell.  The responsiveness is excellent and I don't get that feeling of being pushed into the back seat by the boots. 

 

Anyone interested in a used pair of Krypton Pros?  25.5 Gold ID and FX Liner.  Each have one mold.  I'll post and add soon with pics and price.

post #78 of 80

Good to hear that the boots are treating you well.  I'm interested in your mod for the Booster.  Please snap a shot when you have a chance.

post #79 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler View Post

Good to hear that the boots are treating you well.  I'm interested in your mod for the Booster.  Please snap a shot when you have a chance.

 I should be able to get it tonight.

post #80 of 80
Thread Starter 

How worn if not modified -

1000

 

 

With the mod.  Also had to move the top buckles ladder to the widest position so you might want to check that there is room prior.

1000

 

 

The notch.  You do have to smooth it out and I'm going to put something over the edges to help protect.  Will probably round the corners too.

1000

 

I skied without the modification Saturday and with it Sunday.  Way better.  Might be in my head and maybe because the boots are new I'm still getting used to them so maybe it was that more than the strap, but I really liked it. 

 

Need to do the same thing on the other side.  The one I did on the other side is much bigger because I miscalculated but it doesn't matter.  The notch you can see could be much bigger and it wouldn't change things mechanically.

 

Ken

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