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For intermediate kids acquiring advanced technique: to rocker, or not to rocker... - Page 2

post #31 of 54

Hi Velo, I was in the same situation & after some similar deliberations I settled on the K2 Juvy (daughter) & the Nordica Ace of Spades (son) for a few reasons. We too have graduated from beginner skis and need something more suited to advanced skiers. We usually ski Mt Rose or Northstar and my kids can ski the back side of Northstar (easy blacks) and like to dabble in the trees there and the frontside parks.

 

Since the Juvy's will be passed down to my son I chose the Juvy instead of the Missy as I figured the Juvy was more non-gender specific.

 

I was also looking at the Gotoma's & the Atomic Century's, but they seemed to be more fat powder ski oriented. We demo'd the Juvy's last year during a 12" powder day in March & they were great. Any more snow and yes, the Gotama's probably would have been better :)

 

The Juvy's do have the rise and are directional twin tips so they should be great in the park & features as well as in the wide spaced trees @ Northstar.

 

All in all, for a 1 ski quiver I just felt like these were the best all around skis for what my kids like to ski.

post #32 of 54

"How big is the hill"  Only about 100 vertical.  It's an old cow pasture on my family farm hence: Turnfarmer.  I keep the grass cut low so I can ski on 3 inches of snow.  I spent a long time in the Wasatch, with lots of touring, so it's the closest thing to powder skiing  in the mid-atlantic I get.  Lot's of fun, but about 30 laps(spooned tight) and not much is left.  Kid's best is ten laps which made Dad proud. She definitely skis the backyard better on Gotama Jrs.

post #33 of 54
Thread Starter 

Originally Posted by JHoback View Post

Hi Velo, I was in the same situation & after some similar deliberations I settled on the K2 Juvy (daughter) & the Nordica Ace of Spades (son) for a few reasons. We too have graduated from beginner skis and need something more suited to advanced skiers. We usually ski Mt Rose or Northstar and my kids can ski the back side of Northstar (easy blacks) and like to dabble in the trees there and the frontside parks.

Since the Juvy's will be passed down to my son I chose the Juvy instead of the Missy as I figured the Juvy was more non-gender specific.

I was also looking at the Gotoma's & the Atomic Century's, but they seemed to be more fat powder ski oriented. We demo'd the Juvy's last year during a 12" powder day in March & they were great. Any more snow and yes, the Gotama's probably would have been better :)

The Juvy's do have the rise and are directional twin tips so they should be great in the park & features as well as in the wide spaced trees @ Northstar.

All in all, for a 1 ski quiver I just felt like these were the best all around skis for what my kids like to ski.

 

Thanks everyone for all the great food for thought - especially Garyz for the instructor's perspective, TheDad and Alexzn for the "parent of shredders" insights, and ILOJ for daring to admit that he lets the appearance of the ski take such a high priority in the ski selection process.

The first thought that came to my mind as I looked at images of the Gotama Jr. was "great, the Epic consensus pick is is pure, "none-more-black" black - my daughter won't just hate them, she'll hate *me* for buying them, regardless how they ski.

 

A lot of you folks have echoed thoughts similar to my own considerations, but JHoback hit my #1 focus on the head: "1 ski quiver."

My girls are very athletic, but their skiing hasn't yet progressed to the level that they need a separate set of race skis and freeskis.  What is more, they don't yet have the "3D" snow skills to expect them to ski more than a foot or so of powder. JH's assessment of the K2 junior tip rocker design reaffirms my impression of the design garnered from demoing the K2 Kungfujas: decent in crud & powder measured in inches, not feet.

 

Right now I'm leaning most heavily towards the K2 Missy as a "quiver of 1" compromise that will ski most conditions well.

If she has progressed so much by the end of the season that I think she needs hard snow / powder specific skis, I'll double up for next season.

Question for JH: what approach did you chose in selecting length on the Juvy/Missy?

My daughter is exactly 139cm tall, but is jumping up from a 117cm.  I'm assuming the skis ski shorter due to the tip rocker - if that's the case then 129 would be too short for my daughter, even if they stand right at eye-level on her.

post #34 of 54

For kids, generally speaking, too short is better than too long.  Unless she's pushing the limits and needs that extra stability at speed, or extra float, I wouldn't worry.  My personal opinion is that going a little shorter is easier and safer.  I don't know, however, how short those Missies ski.

post #35 of 54

As mentioned by Xela, too short for the youngsters is better than too long. This holds true with Adult skis with how much surface area & carving ability the newer "parabolic" skis have. I  will try to get an actual body height & ski length & post that this weekend.
 

post #36 of 54

My first instinct is to teach kids tip to turn after they learn to fly a bit. Then it is how to apply many skills to work the off piste and bumps fun. You're on a good path and user satisfaction is most important.  Kids don't always know what is good for them so we have to temper wisdom from our perspective with the desires of the little people. I'd err on their side because they'll outgrow them before long and you can do this all over again as they define their personalities. 

You seem like a wise and gentle leader of small people. Enjoy your time together ,It's the essence of happiness

post #37 of 54

Velo, my kids & the their skis are: 4'2" - 130mm & 4'6" - 140mm skis. 

 

Hope this helps.

post #38 of 54

JHoback, I did the math and it seems those skis are pretty much forehead height.  I'd assume your kids are very good for their age and/or strong and solidly built.  My older girl is 4'-0" and on 110s.  She's a good skier, but built like a bird.

post #39 of 54

What Xela said.  My 4'10" son is on 135 SL, 148 rockered Gotama Jrs, and 155 GS.  My 5'2" son is on 145 SL, 158 Goat Jrs, and 161 GS.

post #40 of 54
Thread Starter 

Thanks so much folks - this thread is everything I hoped for & more!

Just showed my girl both topsheets: the 2011-12 Missy won hands down, and I suppose my wallet can be glad they're $70 less than the Gotamas.

I'm going to go for the 129s, which will come in literally at eye level.  We're mounting system bindings, and my 6yr old is waiting in the wings to inherit them, so it makes good sense to keep the upgrade increment shorter. 117 to 129cm is enough of a jump.

 

Thanks for all the good guidance!

post #41 of 54

We've got the skis, so now I just have to get my oldest some new boots and we should be good for the season. 

post #42 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post
 

I'm just seeing this and haven't had time to read all the posts, but from what I have read, I'm in agreement that skills are important, but more than enjoyment of the sport.  AND,.....if she loves it, she'll want to improve. 

 

That being said, Rossignol makes a good tweener ski that girls that age (to about 14) love called the Trixie. 

 

I'll be happy to tag it and a few other ideas in this thread so you can see what these kinds of skis are all about. 

 

I will caution you on this.......at this age, many shop guys will still try to measure her ski length by her height, but other factors that weigh in on the right ski for her at this time are: 

  • Athletic ability
  • Weight
  • type of skiing/terrain she enjoys

 

 

Don't let her get sold on the wrong ski for her "because she's a kid" 

 

Thanks for reading.  biggrin.gif

Another option that I forgot to tag is the Atomic Century Jr III, which is sort of a kids off piste ski with some nice sidecut. 

http://www.epicski.com/products/2013-atomic-century-jr-iii

I'll tag it now so you can quickly go to the info on it too.  I'll also tag other skis mentioned in this thread for quick reference. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by marznc View Post
 

I'd be interested to learn more about the Trixie.  My almost 12yo daughter is likely to outgrow what she has by the end of the upcoming season.  She's a social skier who has no interest in park.  At Alta she is happy to ski blues with friends her own age or younger, or blacks in all sorts of conditions if that's where the group wants to go.

The Trixie is not offered in super short lengths for little kids  but is offered lengths for the up and comer like your daughter.  Its a really nice looking ski for the young girl coming into her own style on the slopes, has a very nice flex and some shape for someone developing their athletic muscles, and a twin tip.  All things that "look cool" for this age group.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xela View Post
 

My older girl is now 9, but much smaller than yours.  I've got her on Blizzard Viva Jr. IQ skis in 110.  My general rule of thumb for buying her skis is to go with "race shapes".  That is, flat tail, traditional camber, no rocker, no powder boards, no symmetrical park shapes.  I aim for a ski she can bend, which in her case means not very stiff.  My reasoning is that race shapes are the best way to develop the fundamental skills that she can use later on any skis.  She's in a ski-team-like program and learns through mileage, 20+ days per season.

Glad you mentioned this.  

I really wish there were more options for kids. 


Given that this thread is from 2012, wondering whether the skis mentioned are still around.  If not, what would the suggestions be now?  My daughter is all set.  Thinking about my friend's son.  He is 8 and this will be his third season.  I'm guessing he will be ready for southeast blacks after his first day or two on snow.  He has played ice hockey for quite a few years, but for fun not on a competitive team, and picked up alpine skiing quickly.  He's learned from a good ski school.  More of a careful type, but likes speed when he's in control.  He will happily follow me at speed when snow conditions are good but wants to stay away from an icy slope.

post #43 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by marznc View Post
 


Given that this thread is from 2012, wondering whether the skis mentioned are still around.  If not, what would the suggestions be now?  My daughter is all set.  Thinking about my friend's son.  He is 8 and this will be his third season.  I'm guessing he will be ready for southeast blacks after his first day or two on snow.  He has played ice hockey for quite a few years, but for fun not on a competitive team, and picked up alpine skiing quickly.  He's learned from a good ski school.  More of a careful type, but likes speed when he's in control.  He will happily follow me at speed when snow conditions are good but wants to stay away from an icy slope.


The K2 Bad Seeds worked for my two sons for the past several years in various sizes.  They were both skiing any black diamonds on the hills at 7 or 8.  I think the Gotama Jr. is similar, as is an offering from Fischer that I saw.  As you would expect, the manufacturers just change the tops from year-to-year making the older models a bargain. The older kid is now 120 lbs (had that big middle school leap) and is likely  ready for a shorter (roughly 153 cm) adult ski.

post #44 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by marznc View Post
 


Given that this thread is from 2012, wondering whether the skis mentioned are still around.  If not, what would the suggestions be now?  My daughter is all set.  Thinking about my friend's son.  He is 8 and this will be his third season.  I'm guessing he will be ready for southeast blacks after his first day or two on snow.  He has played ice hockey for quite a few years, but for fun not on a competitive team, and picked up alpine skiing quickly.  He's learned from a good ski school.  More of a careful type, but likes speed when he's in control.  He will happily follow me at speed when snow conditions are good but wants to stay away from an icy slope.

The Bad Seeds are now called the Shreditor 85.

 

There is also a Shreditor 75 that might make more sense for a kid skiing in the southeast who is newish to the sport.  There is also a Shreditor 100 that wouldn't make much sense for a kid in the southeast in any case.

 

The Gotama is still around although it is a tad wider now (86 underfoot) as compared to 80 underfoot during the 3 seasons when it had the brown top sheet.  Same ELP rocker profile.  Wood core ski, vertical sidewalls.

 

Salomon buffed out the R2 Jr - it is over 90 in the waist now - but they have a ski called the NFX Jr. that looks like the old Shogun Jr. (~80 in the waist). 

 

Hard to know when you can't test them. . . but the good news is that kids are way less picky than adults.

post #45 of 54
Quote:

Originally Posted by LewyM View Post

 

The Bad Seeds are now called the Shreditor 85.

 

There is also a Shreditor 75 that might make more sense for a kid skiing in the southeast who is newish to the sport.  There is also a Shreditor 100 that wouldn't make much sense for a kid in the southeast in any case.

 

The Gotama is still around although it is a tad wider now (86 underfoot) as compared to 80 underfoot during the 3 seasons when it had the brown top sheet.  Same ELP rocker profile.  Wood core ski, vertical sidewalls.

 

Salomon buffed out the R2 Jr - it is over 90 in the waist now - but they have a ski called the NFX Jr. that looks like the old Shogun Jr. (~80 in the waist). 

 

Hard to know when you can't test them. . . but the good news is that kids are way less picky than adults.

Thanks!

post #46 of 54
Thread Starter 

I was the OP on this thread.

I now have both my 8 & 11 year old on K2 Missys: they've been an extremely versatile ski for the Sierra Nevada.

The version with the boys' graphics is called the Juvy.

My kids are now skiing the entire mountain, blacks, bumps, skiercross courses & a bit of the terrain park.

 

K2 has really nailed it for a quiver-of-one ski for a progressing junior who is going to regularly be skiing all conditions: groomed, refrozen, <1ft of pow or crud.
The skis have a nice, lively flex and hold an edge well. With tip rocker and a twinned tail, the Missy/Juvvy skis relatively short for a directional twin w/ traditional camber.

I measured the actual running length of my 8yr old's 129cm Missys as 82cm (decambered).

Translated into the practical language of ski parenting, this means the skis pivot quite readily in tight quarters like bumps & trees, and the upturned tips and tails stay out of the way until needed: i.e. when the skis are on edge, or the snow is deep enough to engage the full shovel & tail, which provide great float for a medium-waisted kid's ski (102-75-96mm).

 

The adult version of the Gotama is a great all-mountain charger. The kids' version has a great reputation, & strikes me as an ideal choice for a stronger, more advanced junior who is primarily freesking in soft & deep snow west of the Rockies.

For an 8yr old on the east coast who is still relatively new to the sport, they're just not the right tool: I've hand-flexed the Gotama JRs and they're considerably stiffer than most of the other all-mountain kids' skis out there.  What is more, Volkl's rocker concept is nearly dead-flat underfoot with extensive tip & tail rocker, and the widest points of the ski's sidecut tend to ride well off the snow until you start to make aggressive carving angles.  Accomplished experts can compensate for this and still coax strong hard-snow performance out of the design, but for younger, lighter, learners, it is simply not the right place to start.

 

The options for versatile rockered kids' skis have grown over the last two years, but I picked up our Missys for around $120 flat and $200 packaged with Marker bindings, so I've been really happy with the value & performance of the product.

Looks like even with early season pricing, there are Juvys to be had out there for $150 shipped.

 

Here are my girls' height weight & ski sizes:
8yr old, 52", 65lbs, 129cm Missys

11yr old, 60", 100lbs, 139cm Missys.

I'm going to let my eldest start the season on her chin-high 139s and see how the season progresses.  We'll have to step up to one of K2's teen / women's skis to move up in length, but the 85mm Missconduct and 90mm Missdemeanor are basically just longer, wider iterations of the Missy, and given our positive experience we're going to stick with this design as a daily driver 'till she earns a dedicted pow ski by charging the woods with me when it gets deep ;~>

Happy ski shopping!

post #47 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloscente View Post
 

. . .  but the 85mm Missconduct and 90mm Missdemeanor are basically just longer, wider iterations of the Missy, and . . .

 

Thanks for updating the thread, it is great that the Missy worked out for your kids. 

 

But note, the assumption above is incorrect.  There are material differences between the Missy/Juvy and the Shreditor 75 and Shreditor 85 in terms of construction - in ways that matter (like full wood core v. composite, triaxial braid in the 85 and the Missconduct).  That's why the Shreditors cost more - you are getting a higher quality construction and a stiffer ski.  Of course, K2 doesn't make it easy - their web site is garbage and the technical specs are contradicted by evo and skis.com (K2 says the Juvy has an aspen core, the retailers - who provide much more detailed technical information - both say composite, which is consistent with my recollection).  Not that precision in terms of materials really matters at this level because none of us can know how the package translates to on-snow feel - just call it "designed to be softer."

 

Also, the Missconduct (85) and the Shreditor 85 are not exact boy/girl doppelgangers in the line - the Missconduct is more of a tweenager girl park ski and runs up to 169 in length, while the Shreditor 85 has similar heritage but only runs to 149 in length, drops down in sizes and has slightly different dimensions 149 v. 149.

 

It is fair to be a bit confused as K2's branding scheme isn't easy to follow - even if you try to follow it.  In any case, I think that the recommendation of the Juvy is on-point for the 8 year old beginner in the southeast.  At 72 underfoot, a softer layup and lower cost, it makes for an outstanding entry level option for an 8 year old.  And the topsheet has neon which counts for a lot.

 

And for the O-OP's oldest, either the Shreditor 85 (149) or the Misconduct would be nice upgrade/upsize options if she is skiing all mountain in the Tahoe region.  But those are materially different skis than the Missy/Juvy - more ski for more $, designed to be a firmer ride with more positive feedback, but it sounds like she has earned it.

post #48 of 54
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the additional info on the K2s Lewy: you're right K2s website is a joke - they just throw out a couple buzzwords, a skin shot & call it good.  EVO, Backcountry, etc. are a far better source of ski spec info.

I was speaking largely to the overall design of the skis: sidecut, rocker profiles, camber and taper are very similar, if not identical between the Missy & the larger Miss-models. Having not yet had all of them in hand to compare flex & torsional stiffness, I appreciate the further intel on what's inside.

As for the core on the Missys, perhaps K2 does a "composite" core that uses materials other than wood in the tips & tails, but I mounted one of our pairs myself, and there was definitely wood in the binding mount zone.
Aside from the Missy's topsheets gouging rather easily I have no complaints with the quality or durability of their construction: bases have held up well, and the 129s have 3 skier seasons under them and are still holding their camber & "pop."

My big girl is quickly catching up with her mom in strength and size, so there is definitely "more" ski in her near future.

post #49 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloscente View Post
 

Thanks for the additional info on the K2s Lewy: you're right K2s website is a joke - they just throw out a couple buzzwords, a skin shot & call it good.  EVO, Backcountry, etc. are a far better source of ski spec info.

I was speaking largely to the overall design of the skis: sidecut, rocker profiles, camber and taper are very similar, if not identical between the Missy & the larger Miss-models. Having not yet had all of them in hand to compare flex & torsional stiffness, I appreciate the further intel on what's inside.

As for the core on the Missys, perhaps K2 does a "composite" core that uses materials other than wood in the tips & tails, but I mounted one of our pairs myself, and there was definitely wood in the binding mount zone.
Aside from the Missy's topsheets gouging rather easily I have no complaints with the quality or durability of their construction: bases have held up well, and the 129s have 3 skier seasons under them and are still holding their camber & "pop."

My big girl is quickly catching up with her mom in strength and size, so there is definitely "more" ski in her near future.


I just looked at the website, too.  The Bad Seed (old model) has the exact same dimensions as the Shreditor (new model), the Juvy as the...you get the idea.  New tops, same ski. 

post #50 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by marznc View Post
 


Given that this thread is from 2012, wondering whether the skis mentioned are still around.  If not, what would the suggestions be now?  My daughter is all set.  Thinking about my friend's son.  He is 8 and this will be his third season.  I'm guessing he will be ready for southeast blacks after his first day or two on snow.  He has played ice hockey for quite a few years, but for fun not on a competitive team, and picked up alpine skiing quickly.  He's learned from a good ski school.  More of a careful type, but likes speed when he's in control.  He will happily follow me at speed when snow conditions are good but wants to stay away from an icy slope.

 

I'd go with a "combi" race ski for your friend.  Head and Rossi both make good ones.  They are much softer and forgiving than "real" race skis and will be easy to carve and help him progress on those Eastern slopes. 

 

http://www.rossignol.com/US/US/hero-junior-multi-event--2014--RADBB01--product--alpine-boys-skis.html

 

or

 

http://www.head.com/ski/products/skis/junior/worldcup-irace/7996/?region=us

 

Be sure to get the bindings with risers as these don't come with plates.

post #51 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utagonian View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marznc View Post
 


Given that this thread is from 2012, wondering whether the skis mentioned are still around.  If not, what would the suggestions be now?  My daughter is all set.  Thinking about my friend's son.  He is 8 and this will be his third season.  I'm guessing he will be ready for southeast blacks after his first day or two on snow.  He has played ice hockey for quite a few years, but for fun not on a competitive team, and picked up alpine skiing quickly.  He's learned from a good ski school.  More of a careful type, but likes speed when he's in control.  He will happily follow me at speed when snow conditions are good but wants to stay away from an icy slope.

 

I'd go with a "combi" race ski for your friend.  Head and Rossi both make good ones.  They are much softer and forgiving than "real" race skis and will be easy to carve and help him progress on those Eastern slopes. 

 

http://www.rossignol.com/US/US/hero-junior-multi-event--2014--RADBB01--product--alpine-boys-skis.html

 

or

 

http://www.head.com/ski/products/skis/junior/worldcup-irace/7996/?region=us

 

Be sure to get the bindings with risers as these don't come with plates.


Are used combi skis about the same price as used recreational skis?  My friend's kids are unlikely to ski more then 5 days a season.  Mostly just holiday weekends, maybe one more weekend if the season lasts into mid-March.

post #52 of 54

With some proper guidance, your kid can develop advance ski skills (drop "technique" - it's so old school).  Pick the ski based on the primary intended type of skiing.  Back Country requires a different tool than full on moguls, than ski racing, than park & pipe.  But a good skier with a large array of ski skills can take a park & pipe ski and carve a race course (if the ski has been properly tuned and not wrecked on the rails).  Good luck in your equipment choices, but never under estimate the importance of developing ski skills.  I once saw a Swedish "B" teamer spank the field on rental demos at a locals town race.  I have seen plenty of NASTAR racers go slow on FIS race skis that they could not handle. I have seen plenty of kids in the park on the "next big thing" for skis - and they suck because they don't have the skills.  Find someone who can make learning the skills fun, which means better skiing at a more advanced level, which means more fun.

post #53 of 54

Providing a longer response geared for those parents kids, especially in the 7-12 age ranges shopping for all mountain kid skis.  I should clarify for all mountain, the emphasis is off the groomed runs.

I provide height/weight as parents of kids these ages always have to consider these factors.  Current skiing ability/aggressiveness, type of terrain kid/parents like to ski are also factors to consider.

 

Making ski decisions for younger kids is difficult as there really isn't good information out there, and seems like every company likes to throw around the term "all mountain" ski.  Just read the description on the kid skis and you'll swear you just read the same thing on the last web site you checked.    Look on Youtube reviews and you'll just hear salepeople rehashing basically the same.  No company can show you video of younger kids skiing their all mountain ski's in all mountain conditions.  You'll find young park ripper video's, but just because one can ski park well/do crazy inverts, etc certainly doesn't mean one can rip up all mountain conditions. Reading reviews posted by the kids themselves at these ages is probably worthless and it's hard to even gauge parents reviews because there's such large variation in parent perspectives.

 

My post gives interested parents probably the only ski review with video posts to help you decide if my recommended ski is good or not. (see bottom of post for video links).  Hopefully my opinion/video examples can help parents trying to decide on all mountain ski's for their kid(s). 

 

I have no vested interest in K2, but for the 7-12 y/o range,  my personally recommendation is the K2 Bad Seed which for around the 7-12 year old comes in a 119 mm length and 129 mm length with a full 85 mm waist under foot.  There seems to be other good skis that I like, but they seem to be more for slightly older kids using 139+ sized lengths.  Sometimes people will post responses with skis that are definitely not geared for the 7-12 y/o age kids when you look at the ski stats and available lengths.

 

See below for video examples to show the 119 model K2 Bad Seed ski performance in most conditions and hopefully you'll find my personal advice/video's helpful with selecting skis, even if you're not looking specifically at my ski recommendation.

 

My opinion  is from the perspective of a parent of a now 10 year old boy who is now: 56" tall/69 lbs, and the recommendation also goes back to the same model when he was 8 years old and 51" tall/55 lbs through 9 yrs old and probably about 53" tall / 60 lb weight.

 

My parent perspective/opinion is also from a parent of a kid who dabbles in racing (and has ski's specifically for those tasks, various sizes/designs), has dabbled a tiny bit in competitive mogul skiing (and "downgraded" to a typical foam type core for this but was not a mogul specific ski).   Most applicable though, is that his forte is true all mountain skiing (pretty much skied all types of terrain and conditions).  He's not a park kid, but likes taking jumps in the park or jumps off cornices/rocks.  We've skied all terrain since he was 5 years old in all conditions mostly in Southern Rockies/Rockies, and Sierra Nevada's for reference.

 

 

1.  In my opinion, there is a tendency to put kids in all mountain ski lengths that are probably too long.  Trying to save money and get too big of a ski can easily backfire as too much length can make it more difficult to ski bumps/steeps/trees which typically gets kids into bad form outside a groomed run.  Remember, there's a vast difference between the length of my son's GS ski vs. his all mountain ski.  All mountain ski's can "carve" on groomed run, but's just not the same carve as you'll get with a GS ski's dimensions.  Additionally, and probably most importantly, is too much length in the bumps, steeps, trees raise the risk of injury as it's harder to control a longer ski.  A knee injury in your kid can be more expensive than trying to save money by putting them into a longer ski to "grow into" and could leave them with life long knee issues.  I've seen excellent ski racers being put in what I felt were all mountain skis that in my opinion, were too long for them, negatively impacting their ability in steeps, crud, etc.  I've seen dangerous scenarios with young kids skiing way too long of a ski for their control that I suspect was because a parent was going to have their "kid grow into it" and suspect that was a financial factor.

 

Also,  if you decide on the extra width from the K2 Bad Seed, the extra width creates an "effectively longer" ski for the kids when it comes to being able to handle.  "Handle" being a vague term to bring the ski around on steeps, bumps, trees, etc.  Most kid skis I've looked over have nothing more than maximum of 75 width.    As an example, take the K2 Bad Seed at 129 with a waist of 85 mm under foot and compare it to another ski at 129 with a waist of 75 mm, and you'll appreciate that the extra 10 mm waist is a lot more ski for your kid to "handle/throw around."  Stand a 139 length K2 bad seed with 85 mm waist next to the 139 K2 Bad Apple with 100 mm waist and you'll appreciate it takes a lot more to throw that extra width around (scary difference).  For a bit older kids, the 139/85 K2 Bad seed is a lot more ski and the K2 Bad Apple huge at 139/100. 

 

But since, were talking younger kids, the extra width of 85 for the 119/129 K2 Bad Seed means a lot for the 7-12 y/o group.  Also for reference, my kids GS ski this season will be 143 length/72ish waist and he'll hopefully be in the step up size K2 Bad Seed size of 129/85 (I may put him in a transition ski of 125/80.wood core ski that's not the K2 Bad Seed until he's a couple inches taller).

 

For reference on the video examples, my son is on the 119/85 K2 Bad Seed when he was 8 at 51"/55 lbs and the next season at 9 at 53" and about 60 lbs.  I think many parents would feel that length was on the shorter side for this height/weight, and thus would hinder their kids performance.  I would disagree.  Again, the extra width made the ski more "effectively" a length of about 122 compared  to other narrower skis.

 

2. When it comes to "all mountain/condition skiing, which includes skiing all types of terrain"  ungroomed, chutes/steeps, large moguls, spring slush, trees, crud, and of course powder:

 

In my opinion, the most important aspect is having a wider waist on the ski (within reason).   As a side factor, the larger waist ski will typically have wider tip/tail that comes with it.   When it comes to the 7-12 year old group, I don't think there is a wider ski 129 length and under, and the 85 mm width is just right.  (When they get to 139 size, then you have to really think about going to a 100 mm width ski).

 

The wider waist of the ski helps with all conditions off the groomed trail.

Basically, when it comes to powder, off trail crud, off trail packed powder, tree conditions, big moguls in steeps,  slush etc, one the most important thing to help skill progression is some additional width to keep the kids skis above these conditions.

 

My son thinks that extra width by far is the most important factor for the off groomed type conditions.

 

 

3. Another issue is the core material with kid weight's etc.  Definitely true, takes a more aggressive skier or heavy skier to flex a wood core ski over foam/composite core's.  All things being equal, if they are skiing harder packed bumps, a wood core ski isn't as forgiving.  There's also the weight factor.  Wood core's are definitively heavier.  The advantage for the wood is when conditions are steep and hard packed, or even when groomed and icier.  The heavier wood core's are definitely more responsive with hard packed steeps.  We've skied lots of situations where there was much more comfort knowing his ski was going to hold (i.e. some steeps) from the extra stiffness of the wood core.

 

The decision for wood or foam/composite type core's for kids is debatable.  My kid personally for all mountain skiing has skied a wood core since age 6 (where he skied a wider 80 mm ski  @ 105 length) and wood cores have served him well for all mountain ski conditions.  The only exception/issue is that when it comes to tight more competitive type moguls where he likes having a lighter foam/composite core for the weight factor (we've not converted to a true competitive mogul ski yet due to costs).  My recommended K2 Bad Seed is an all wood core ski. 

 

4. On the thought of rocker vs. no rocker.  All things being equal, for an advanced kid skiing all montain/conditons some rocker/camber would be nice.  If the ski has it great, but many kid skis are just basically twin tips.  Is it that critical?  In my opinion, probably not going to make/break a ski for an advanced skier.  My recommended ski, the K2 Bad Seed, does have 30% rocker & 70% camber.

 

5. Cost.  As sort of mentioned above, be careful on using that as a criteria.  Paying full price isn't necessary, I know I've obtained my son's previous ski of choice for new for $275+ with bindings shipped, way way below list price.  Even after 2 seasons, ski is in great shape and given it's a high end type of kid ski, should reasonable get at least $125 on resale.  Really not bad for 2 solid seasons.

 

6. Graphics.  A not so uncommon issue for young female skiers is they may want or even choose a ski based on graphics that are designed more towards appealing to the young female skier.  Sometimes this can be a factor to consider.  Culturally, probably easier to get a female to use a male ski than a male skier to use a female oriented ski graphic.

 

It's sometimes  hard to find the right size you want, but I've managed to do well on line.  After seeing my son's 2 yr old well used K2 Bad Seed, I wouldn't fret about buying a used pair.  On my recommended K2 Bad Seed, the graphics per year model vary, but from what I can tell, the ski itself really hasn't changed otherwise.

 

 

Video links below showing the K2 ski performance and why I recommend it: (again no vested interest in K2 even though it may seem that way):

 

K2 Bad Seed 119 length/85 mm waist.  Son @ approx 53"/63 lbs, 9 years old:

 

Bigger bumps/black run, 3-4" new snow over very old stale/hardened bumps.

http://youtu.be/nsN0YvJJNMY

 

12" overnight/24" in 2 days, very wet powder and some steep trees with the packed powder.

http://youtu.be/8Edp_CaZ9jg?list=UU_Sb090jLR5N3uXc-40ueRg

 

 

Same sized K2 Bad Seed (119 length/85 mm waist).   But son was smaller/lighter @  @ 51"/55 lbs, 8 y/o

 

1st day on ski at Mammoth Mt, the crud in the trees and in the sun was super tough for anyone (adults included).  Conditions were extremely varied due to minimal fresh snow, very old stale snow base, and howling winds on the top.

http://youtu.be/695InXNqT9Q

 

This shows a day after skiing some chopped up stuff.  Snow was wet.

http://youtu.be/Lj1hWNWMA9A?list=UU_Sb090jLR5N3uXc-40ueRg

 

This shows that same storm 12-15" storm with very wet (more like Sierra's), has my wife in video and shows comparison of a typical adult was his small height/weight.  The float the ski provided him in this wet heavy condition is apparent.

http://youtu.be/zFXRwJ6zlz4?list=UU_Sb090jLR5N3uXc-40ueRg

 

Spring conditions that developed into nice corn snow, adult in video shows comparison of the how the ski is

performing compared to a typical adult in same conditions. Go to 2:27 on the video to appreciate the float from the ski's 85 mm waist as the cornice "waterfalls":

http://youtu.be/3lvSV5DqCOU?t=2m27s

 

A couple days later, change in condition, shows ski over extremely difficult  "rime" conditions (stucco like snow)

http://youtu.be/tehlD8pfeA0?t=32s

 

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Hope this post / videos was helpful for those shopping for their young kids . . .

post #54 of 54

With years of experience of selling and designing junior skis, its your job to look through the marketing material and get the skis that are best suited for your kid. Some marketing managers think calling a ski a Beg-Int ski will sell more than labeling it Int-Adv type of ski. What makes a junior ski a junior ski, cheaper materials and less of them, calling it a junior version of the adult is misleading because in most cases they are not even close to the adult version other than maybe graphics.

As you can see in "kwcski1's" videos his son is floating more than his mother and is moving much slower. Sure would be nice to ski those conditions all the time but that's not reality for most of us. But these videos show us, the skis for these tweeners need not be as wide as what you may think, also look for a ski with a good sintered base, most have extruded bases (cause they are cheaper) and as we see glide is very important for these light weight bombers, so we need a base that will absorb the wax well so they can keep the speed up. Most have lighter weight cores (foam in place of wood) these cores effect the ability to tune the ski properly as lighter cheaper materials when ground make it hard to get the base flat (tip and tail especially) and most, even from brand new have big hollows in the tip and tail giving them a railed effect (not nice)

So look for a ski that has a sintered base and look at the factory tune, are the tip and tails at the bases flat or is there a big hollow between the edges?

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