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post #31 of 48
ferrari goes to paris (unlike mclaren in 98)


you're stretching things a bit here. for one, it's ferrari who's saying there's precedent for their actions. BACK IN THE 1950's. it's not so much the rules - f1 rules leave plenty of room for weirdness; and they've always been very selective in their "prosecution" of transgressions, anyway - as it is a frontal assault on the spirit of the game. later in the year? sure, makes more sense, stinks less.
this was rubens' weekend, all the way through. he won the race. ferrari gets 1, 2 points ANYWAY. but that's a team call, granted. they still blew it, it still stinks. my opinion.
and ditto previous sentiments on michael's act.

[ May 14, 2002, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: ryan ]
post #32 of 48
As you can see from my post before the race, I didn't want to see it either. It would have been much better if things had worked out differently but in the end I guess money talks.
post #33 of 48
absolutely. read jackie stewart's comments, about the likelihood of f1 banning ferrari from the british gp. not likely (barely subduing a laugh). too much $$$. (anyway, why punish the brit gp supporters/producers for what's not their fault.) hopefully, after this, some guidelines, if not flat-out rules. (of course, given the occassional meaninglessness of rules in f1, what'n the heck are mere guidelines going to do?)
wish michael had just opted to stay behind. what would they do, fire him?
"uh, michael, we're voiding your contract. you're gone." not likely.
anyway, it's hardly evil but it is unfortunate.
sure would be something if this and that were to happen (not that i'm hoping, as it would mean michael gets hurt) enabling rubens to be in contention at the end, only to lose the championship because of points he gave up "for the team."

i ain't doggin' ya. and yes, i got where you were coming from in your earlier post. and hey, you know, they do have the right to do it. i just think it was a weak choice from a team that is so completely dominant this year.
post #34 of 48
It would be pretty hard to enforce the rules for this scenario. They could stage a "long" pit stop and that would be the end of it.

In some wierd way I sort of respect them for having the balls to do it openly. At least this way Rubens gets credit from the fans instead of taking second place because of a pit crew screw up.

As for doing this sooner or later in the season, it is all the same. You either can justify this or not. Think about group rounds in soccer world cup. Would a team tie or loose to have a better position in elimination rounds - you bet. Sucks for the fans - sure. Could they win from worse position - maybe. Would they take a chance - nope.
post #35 of 48
well, i think doing it openly is smarter, yes. for one, rubens does get some crredit. the other way, with him suddenly slower or sitting in the pits, he gets zip. i'm sure he knew what he was signing on for but at some point a driver wants to believe that if he's got a chance to win a race, he's got a chance to win a race. rubens knows he's a piece of a machine, and a smaller piece than michael, but you have to let all the pieces know they're important. rubens is a top-tier driver in a fantastic car. he has a chance to win. you put a driver on the track knowing he's racing to finish second if all goes well...it does have an effect. might not be so visible now but the seed is planted.
post #36 of 48
no question about it - sux to be second best, would have been interesting to see what they would do if MS was trailing in points.

The only other point is that there were team orders for these two NOT to race each other. Hence MS could only hang out in second and could not put pressure on the leader he otherwise would have. Wouldn't it look stupid for them to trash both cars dicing for the lead. I would love to see a close up on team owner right after that happens. So the true racing already flawed because all else being equal with two Ferrari's in the lead it is the guy who is fastest to the first corner that gets to lead most of the race.
post #37 of 48
purely from a driver's standpoint, so much is mental. at least where edges are. with the occassional exception, the drivers are fairly equal. (or were. jacques can, or could, drive; now he's in an inferior car and seems to not be at the height of concentration. which has gotta be hard, knowing points are nowhere to be had.)(the point being, you can't always choose the car you're in.)
drivers on the edge of breakthroughs need that extra boost - a GP win, for example - to get them over the hump and into the mindset that they have a chance to win each time out, which leads to - sorry, i don't mean to sound so pedantic here - aggressive, attacking driving, which leads to increased success (when tempered with common sense).
Rubens is showing he's there, despite some poor luck. and he knows he's got a car under him. to pull in the reigns like this, when a guy is about to punch through that membrane from in-the-field to just-might-win, is not going to be lost on rubens. i don't know his mind (and hey, it IS a team sport, obviously ) but he probably does look at his career as a whole before he looks at his employment by ferrari. well, what i mean, he probably looks at it LAST, as in "bottom line."
There's only so much time in a career, and it's a relatively small window of opportunity. Rubens knows this and, i'd guess, is mulling things over, privately. he gets paid big money to drive that red car. but i doubt that extinguishes the competitive flame that has gotten him this far.
anyway, i'm repeating myself. hope my point was not too cluttered up with words.

good points, too, about team orders not to race. but sometimes it's like telling rabbits to not...make more rabbits. my guess is that this might resurface down the road; could get even more interesting.
post #38 of 48
Thread Starter 
From a constructors point of view I can understand why teamates might block another team especially when it benefits their lead car, but I thought a driver's championship would tell you who was the best driver throughout the year, without any help. I guess not.
post #39 of 48
Even as #2 with Michael, Ferrari is probably RB's best shot at winning races. Where else would he go? Let's say he swaps seats with Monty or DC would he win more races than at Ferrari? I doubt it.

As for using McLaren in '98 as a precedent, I don't think that's the same thing. DC and Hak agreed that the first car into the first corner would be allowed to win the race so that they wouldn't dice and wreck both cars. McLaren is one team that does let it's driver's race each other and it has cost them the WDC in recent years. Wasn't it in '99 where DC wrecked Hak at the A-1 ring. How many points did Hak lose the WDC by? Do you think Ron Dennis should have issued team orders? I'll bet MS is glad he didn't otherwise he'd be working on #4 this year (If Todt hadn't been sacked for failing to win the WDC again).
post #40 of 48
No, Rubens will not increase his chances of winning by being in a different car, at least not this year. Hakkinen in the present McLaren car wouldn't be winning races, either. The car is just too far behind. (However, I do think he'd be more competitive than DC or Reikk.)
One reason DC and Mika were allowed to race is that there was, at one time, an open shot at #1 on that team. Mika took it, fair and square and handily - qualifying, race results - but there was still enough car for David, with his skills, to conceivably win. The gulf at Ferrari, between the two drivers, is more considerable. Or, more to the point, it's obvious there who Number One is and a check of the salaries indicates where Ferrari is laying its chips. Also, Michael has a bit more weight with his opinions/desires than any other driver.
I would like to see Rubens step up and make that team make more choices.

There are still high speed circuits and warm weather to come. BMW, for one, should have a few strong finishes left before the season's over.
post #41 of 48
As I remember, DC took Mika out more than once in 98 and 99. I also remember there was talk of some kind of "fine" for that Austrailian incident.
Anyway, Michael and Rubens have to appear before the FIA to explain. It's not over yet.

The next race is tape delayed : courtesy of ABC. No early morning Bloody Marys and omlettes Hope they come up with some decent commentators.

Wonder if Eddie will get that Jag going again this year?
post #42 of 48
Personally, I wonder if Eddie will get going from Jag this year. When Nasser left Ford, I thought Irvine would be toast. He is the highest paid Ford employee - period. The way he slags off the team all thetime is unbeleivable. To think that Rahal was fired for wanting to fire Irvine (don't even get me started). He has shown nothing at Jag. He needs to go and sit on his yacht and never come back. It just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside every time Pedro de la Rosa out-qualifies him and everytime an Arrows is in front of him.
post #43 of 48
A lot of people don't like Eddie's personality(he shoots from the lip) but he usually admits it if he's wrong or screws up. He's like Muhammed Ali or John McEnroe. A little "color" doesn't hurt anything.
Niki Lauda says he's very dedicated and works hard.
post #44 of 48
Time for a colourful little story about Fast Eddie...
As you may know, he's from Conlig, a village in Northern Ireland. One of the towns nearby is Newtownards, which used to be a haunt of mine at weekends for the occassional imbibation of liquid.

One evening my friends were in one of the local establishments when in walked Fast Eddie. He went over to one of the girls (I think it was Janine), and said: "I'm Eddie Irvine, do you want to f***"
To which she replied: "no thanks"
"I'm Eddie Irvine, and my Ferrari is parked out front. Let's go."
My friend then politely asked him to leave. He wasn't her type. She had taste.

post #45 of 48
I knew a fellow who used that approach and he did about as well as anyone.
Not much class though.

Lower class maybe?
post #46 of 48
post #47 of 48
I saw that the other day.(F-1.com and here are daily for me) I've sort of figured that the finish was within the rules but the podium stuff was the issue. An earlier article suggested that what Mika and DC did in Australia(conspire to alter the outcome of the race) was a clear violation of the rules while Ferrari's deal was within the rules.
post #48 of 48
Missed the THURSDAY? practice.
How about Alan McNish in the Toyota? :
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