Waxing and scraping new skis.Hot boxing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uboom 

When repeatedly waxing and scraping new skis, why do we scrape? Surely repeat ironing would get the wax into the base without scraping it off each time.

If you live in sunny location after waxing, lean the skis against a wall with the bases at 90 degrees to the sun.Where I live (Auckland N.Z). the wax stays molten and gives me a free hot box for a couple of hours..

To the highlighted part.

You don't have to scrape after each ironing HOWEVER, you should for at least the first one if not two.  This is to make sure the bases are clean and debris free so you don't iron in dirt.  You should add a little more wax each time your iron also.  There is also the belief that brushing between each waxing helps with the structure.   I'm for re-waxing and ironing and scrape and brush at the end.

I have thought about putting my waxed skis in my black cargo box out on the deck on hot days.  It must get to 150F in there.

If you're talking about the specific case of conditioning new skis with new wax, then I would say scrape the first time after waxing to ensure you removed traces of storage wax and anything else on there.  After that I see your point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uboom 

When repeatedly waxing and scraping new skis, why do we scrape? Surely repeat ironing would get the wax into the base without scraping it off each time.

If you live in sunny location after waxing, lean the skis against a wall with the bases at 90 degrees to the sun.Where I live (Auckland N.Z). the wax stays molten and gives me a free hot box for a couple of hours..

IIRC one of the base prep waxes on market was a mix of soft and hard waxes that would /intentionally/ separate when ironed, so that the microhairs float up in the pool of softwax but get locked into the rigid hard wax on top (and hopefully snapped off by the scraper).

For removing unwanted hairs, I'd suggest you use wax like this or this. 

Seriously, this is nuts. Unless someone is a top tier racer, none of this matters to this degree (and even then I sometimes wonder). I've settled into a pattern of not doing any prep out of the box and then quickly corking some Hot Sauce on after each ski day or two of use. My bases are none the worse for wear and ski as well as when I paid lots of money or wasted lots of time. I suspect this, or similar,  is all the average recreational skier needs to get fine performance out of their skis. Then throw in a good tune every season or two to tidy things up.

Bottom line: I suspect the OPs method is at least 99.9% as effective as all the extra mumbo jumbo.

Getting the absolute top performance of out the ski is only critical for racers. Most skiers wouldn't notice a 10% loss of ski performance from the ideal that racers try to attain (or many post as being the best/only/essential way to prep your skis). They would notice a 50% loss and certainly no prep would be just a crap shoot as to whether the ski left the factory or ski shop in useable condition or not. DoctorD and starthaus are right on the money with their remarks.

The thing is that that last 10% of performance is the difference between a few cycles of wax/scrape/brush and dozens of cycles also interleaved with actually skiing on the skis. Unless you need to loose a 0.10 second in a course, a few cycles is adequate particularly if you regularly maintain your skis after the initial prep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spindrift 

 

 

 Unless someone is a top tier racer, none of this matters to this degree (and even then I sometimes wonder).

I think it does matter to  a weak skater on a runout, or someone stuck on a cat track or someone skiing hard-freeze crust ontop of rain-sogged wet snow, or someone skiing base-building manmade snow in cold air temps or someone getting the wax just ever so slightly too warm/too soft for the conditions.   

In every one of those instances both the do-nothing base burner and the racer will have the advantage over someone who's only doing basic waxing.  

 "It doesn't matter" posts are so very often made by posters in areas with plentiful natural snow.  They coincide in being discouraging to those interested in waxing because "none of this matters" and they're /still/ getting smoked on cat tracks by their do-nothing base burner friends.  

Absent some very specific conditions, the notion that the average enthusiast level skier would see a 50% difference in performance between an out of the box base and a "prepped" base is nonsense IMO. At least for most decent quality skis. If my local shop wants to throw on a nice tidy wax job on a new pair of skis I'm not going to say no. But do I think it'll make a big difference to my skiing - not really.  If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it.

And in the specific cases where it matters, such as sticky spring snow, just adding the right wax to the mix will close up the gap. In fact, just as an experiment, I have used Spring Solution in temps ranging from about 12 below F to very wet spring slush. I have noticed, at most, modest differences vs specialty waxes skied pretty much back to back on the same skis (eg, same conditions but sequential day with specialty hot wax on day 2).

I have no particular bias toward the Hertel stuff than than I fell into using it and it does the job for me ( I now have a pile of temp specific waxes that have been untouched for at least a season and a half). I suspect any number of all-around waxes are fine for lots of people. What I do have is a bias against wasting time and money on mythology (and not even cool mythology like Norse Gods). Wax is, to a point, important. But after that point - it is, for most, just a form of recreation in its own right.  Not that this is bad. But let's just be realistic rather than driving people way past the point of diminishing returns.

Agreed, but that is not what I said:

I didn't say that there is a 50% difference between an out of the box base and a prepped base but rather they would notice a 50% loss (of performance).

A 50% loss of performance would come from, for instance, never maintaining their skis for year on end. If they went from these unmaintained skis to a brand new pair with a factory tune, just about anyone would notice that the new skis glide much better, hence they would notice a difference of 50%.

Another way to loose 50% of your performance would be to gouge a ski on a rock leaving a piece of p-tex hanging from the ski. I suspect that most skiers would notice that one ski was running nicely and the other was dragging and pulling to one side.

Here's the key to a good hot box.  First, get a quality strain from somewhere like Humboldt County.  Next, you need to find a gondola where the vents can be manually closed.  Third-- oh, we're talking about ski preparation?  Nevermind.

Hi Jim,

Sorry would have responded this sooner (but I was in Austria for two weeks....no skiing though)...Part of the concept of hydrodynamics is the use of scales, hair and texturing to increase laminar flow at the boundary layers.  Depending on how much hair is there (and the length) it might be of benefit.

I see the primary effect of the cycling to ensure the best condition and what we as skiers are looking for is the least friction possible and not stick-tion....To little or to much of anything is bad, by cycling we are fluctuating ideally near the perfect condition.

Had to stir the pot on this one .

BTW Jim...well described (its easy to add to what you wrote so well).

G

Quote:

Originally Posted by L&AirC 

 

To the highlighted part.

 

You don't have to scrape after each ironing HOWEVER, you should for at least the first one if not two.  This is to make sure the bases are clean and debris free so you don't iron in dirt.  

Doing this too. The benefits? the material of the ski is protected plus less time waste.

My own schedule of ski wax and prep pretty much deals with the weather.

During storm cycles I rarely touch the ski's as most of the terrain is either new snow or snow in transition to base material for a week or so after the storm. Other than spring gunk, waxing and even edges really does not seem to make much of a difference to performance off-piste in the new stuff. A good storm cycle here can last over two weeks, seperate cells but one after the other. 

But when the dry spell runs long enough and groomers and hard pack (it's not ice till you can see 6" into it) become the option then a good tune-up and wax every few days does make a difference. Any day depending on the snow conditions may have a bit of temperature specific wax rubbed on a the bottom of the lift a few times during the day as needed, especially true in the spring. Of course actual damage is usually fixed fairly quickly and that will entail at least a minimum wax job as a final touch-up, usually one coat ironed on and scraped if not too late.

Probably true that I am not getting all the performance out of my ski's, but I most certainly get enough to keep me happy. Losing a few tenth's here and there I can live with.

 I probably abuse my skiis, some would say, but they like it that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uboom 

When repeatedly waxing and scraping new skis, why do we scrape? Surely repeat ironing would get the wax into the base without scraping it off each time.

If you live in sunny location after waxing, lean the skis against a wall with the bases at 90 degrees to the sun.Where I live (Auckland N.Z). the wax stays molten and gives me a free hot box for a couple of hours..

Totally true with black bases and soft wax.  You are on to something! :-)
Here is my take on hotboxing.   158 F is the highest temp safe.  145 F should be the goal.

Glad to find this post.  I have a new pair that needs some love prior to hitting the WROD.  Good info to all that posted.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacques 

 

Totally true with black bases and soft wax.  You are on to something! :-)

This does *not* work for wax with significant quantities of suspended particulate additives in it.  

The lighter portion of the wax softens and oozes - the particulate additives stay where they were originally dripped/crayoned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cantunamunch 

 

 

This does *not* work for wax with significant quantities of suspended particulate additives in it.  

 

The lighter portion of the wax softens and oozes - the particulate additives stay where they were originally dripped/crayoned.

Oh yea!  That's like stuff "floats" up to the top of a hot waxed ski.  Then you scrape it off.  To be honest, I still don't get the hot scraping deal.  I have done some testing.  I found that most all the ash and dirt etc. do not float to the top of molten liquid wax.  I have seen the results of graphite particles going into a base with just a hot box.  Only ironed the wax on to smooth it out one pass.  Do I rub on my anti-statics prior to the iron?  Yes.

When you say suspended particles I assume that's what you are talking about.
Anyway, a good sun soaking can do good with yellow, or pink base prep waxes.  A hot attic.  In a hot car.  In a mini ski greenhouse.  It can't hurt. 

I don't even remember what this thread is about! :-)  Bla bla!  
OK, I'm just totally bored.  I must entertain myself a bit here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacques 
.

When you say suspended particles I assume that's what you are talking about.

You have understood my meaning exactly.