Yup...I've bought from both snowinn and diveinn.  They are great to deal with and the worse things get for the Euro the better their prices get.

Thanks for the link.  I checked the skis I got at the end of last season and it would have been a considerable savings to wait.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by sibhusky 

Thanks for the link.  I checked the skis I got at the end of last season and it would have been a considerable savings to wait.  

Even after the $78 to ship to the US?  Decent prices, but not outstanding?

Puck:  Have tried those on before?   I have to try on all footware.

So you're going to try them on your local store and then order them on the net?  Way to support your local businesses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puck it 

I have not tried them on.  I am looking locally to see if there are any.  Coupon code edeals5 works btw for another 5% off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtcyclist 

So you're going to try them on your local store and then order them on the net?  Way to support your local businesses.

How about bringing a print out of the ad and shipping totaled and ask the merchant if they have the product and will match the price BEFORE trying them on?

Going in to a store and trying stuff on WITH NO INTENTION TO BUY IT FROM THERE is illegal "theft of services".

However, we're all guilty of choosing the lower cost non local alternative, and doing so in mass.  If we weren't then everything we use, wear, and drive would still be made locally

Personally, without regard to the ethics (which I do agree with, but this is a practical matter...), for BOOTS I would only buy locally.  Buying locally gets you free boot tweaking, the alternative is like $50 an hour.  And I'm boot-sensitive enough to know I need assistance in this area, even though I may end up, 300 days later, doing further tweaking on my own with extra insoles, etc.  You can spend four hours tromping around in THE boots in the shop only to find out once you get skiing that they are NOT going to work.  A local shop will work with you, the internet does not.  I'll get poles, goggles maybe, skis, jackets, pants, helmets, bindings, whatever, online, BUT NEVER BOOTS.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

Going in to a store and trying stuff on WITH NO INTENTION TO BUY IT FROM THERE is illegal "theft of services".

 

Illegal, really? I would be very surprised if that was correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

 

How about bringing a print out of the ad and shipping totaled and ask the merchant if they have the product and will match the price BEFORE trying them on?

 

Going in to a store and trying stuff on WITH NO INTENTION TO BUY IT FROM THERE is illegal "theft of services".

 

However, we're all guilty of choosing the lower cost non local alternative, and doing so in mass.  If we weren't then everything we use, wear, and drive would still be made locally

What are you even talking about? You're not stealing any services, and the effect is no different than trying on boots and deciding you don't want to buy them. I'm not really advocating the approach, but I think that's an exaggeration. And even if it was illegal, it would be pretty laughable - good luck enforcing that.

I've bought from Euro stores online before. Usually the online price includes the VAT which they can deduct when they ship here. Something near 20%. Pays for shipping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeUT 

What are you even talking about? You're not stealing any services, and the effect is no different than trying on boots and deciding you don't want to buy them. I'm not really advocating the approach, but I think that's an exaggeration. And even if it was illegal, it would be pretty laughable - good luck enforcing that.

You are stealing the sales staff's time they could use helping a REAL customer.  You are stealing wear and tear on their merchandise that you have no intention of buying.  It is fraud and it is illegal.  Kinda like jacking wifi, almost everyone does it at some time or another, but it is illegal.  It is the equivilant of buying something with no intent of keeping item using item then returning it for a full refund. ... only you don't take it out of the store, you just use it/borrow in the store under the false pretense that you are seriously considering buying it there.

I remember going into a car dealer in NJ, they wanted me to tell them if I was going to buy THAT car, THAT day, otherwise no test drive.  Told them that theirs was NOT the only car under consideration and I planned to visit a number of dealers that weekend.  And that I was unlikely to want the car they had on the showroom floor as I would want a manual transmission.  Needless to say, I walked out and bought the car from a place that said, "Here's the keys, have fun."  

But I understand why Best Buy and all the ski shops are having issues with people shopping around.  For years, logistical constraints have made shopping around hard on the customer, whereas the store in many (not all cases) could go to trade shows and buy from whichever distributor would give them the best deal.  (I know there are tons of exceptions.)  It's certainly impacted many downtown areas as box stores have been able to outprice them and now the box stores themselves are succumbing to the internet.  

On the other hand the internet has made "self service" the norm and if you think back, it may have started with banks and cash machines.  They got rid of tellers, made us deal with a machine, then some of them started trying to charge us to do that!  Now you go to the airport and deal with a machine for your boarding pass and check in.  It's made us our own salesmen, our own tellers, our own secretaries, our own service providers for many things.  To "save money" we end up paying by doing our own product evaluation or our own time or effort.  The rich among us can still afford the custom tailor or the personal shopper, but not most of us.  

I don't know what the solution is.  I'm sure before too long, they will be "beaming" the new car to your house as soon as you think you are ready to buy and sucking the money out of the bank just as fast.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

You are stealing the sales staff's time they could use helping a REAL customer.  You are stealing wear and tear on their merchandise that you have no intention of buying.  It is fraud and it is illegal.  Kinda like jacking wifi, almost everyone does it at some time or another, but it is illegal.  It is the equivilant of buying something with no intent of keeping item using item then returning it for a full refund. ... only you don't take it out of the store, you just use it/borrow in the store under the false pretense that you are seriously considering buying it there.

It's the middle of the summer out there. And (at least here), it's friggin hot as acid. I'm pretty sure ski sales folks aren't bombarded with customers.

Also, you make the assumption that he even needed to ask for help. This time of year, you tend to find whatever boots haven't been sold stacked up in boxes. You don't need a salesman to try them on in some cases. Wear and tear on merchandise? From a lap around the store? What a joke.

And please cite statutes that make it illegal in all 50 states if you're going to call it that. I'm with others, and I highly doubt that claim. If anything, it's a grey area that's open to interpretation, and it'd be impossible to enforce either way - unless the person was dumb enough to straight up admit to it.

I agree that it's shady and I don't necessarily support the practice. But the illegal bit is over the top. Frankly, it's no worse than some of the tricks retailers play on consumers (e.g. jacking up prices and then running a "sale").

Can't say I miss NJ car dealerships much. I remember when I was around 19 and shopping for a car (which ended up being a sweet Acura Integra that was "the" car). I was just trying to price things out, and the sleazeball behind the desk said something to the effect of "Why don't you come back in with your dad and we'll talk" (see crg, wasting people's time works both ways). After steaming in my car for 10 minutes, I went back in, asked for the manager, sat down in his office, and got what I needed. And the greaseball that shooed me away stood there peeping in from the showroom wondering what was going on.

It's like they try to live up to the stereotype sometimes.

You're still using the climate control of the structure, and someone is probably having to watch you to make sure you don't steal anything else.  Using a company's real estate and inventory to research your internet purchase when you have zero intention of buying anything from them is just plain sleezy.  It does constitute theft of services.  It's a little less scum bagish if you at least buy something else there like some tuning supplies or whatever.  But, just going in there to borrow their boots is ghetto, redneck, low life, etc. 

I say the same thing about someone who'd go to a car lot to test drive a vehicle they were planning to purchase in a different state for a better deal.  You can usually get the dealers to haggle with you if you're shopping in the same general local area though..

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeUT 

Can't say I miss NJ car dealerships much. I remember when I was around 19 and shopping for a car (which ended up being a sweet Acura Integra that was "the" car). I was just trying to price things out, and the sleazeball behind the desk said something to the effect of "Why don't you come back in with your dad and we'll talk" (see crg, wasting people's time works both ways). After steaming in my car for 10 minutes, I went back in, asked for the manager, sat down in his office, and got what I needed. And the greaseball that shooed me away stood there peeping in from the showroom wondering what was going on.

 

It's like they try to live up to the stereotype sometimes.

That;s pretty funny.  First rule in sales is NEVER prejudge a customer.  Guy that worked for me when I lived that miserable sales manager life once told a story about when he was selling cars...

Three dirty young hispanic kids were on the lot first thing one Saturday morning looking at a Trans Am Indy Pace Car edition.  They had been there quite some time when he arrived according to the others working there.  He decided to go talk to them.  They asked if they could drive it and he said "what the hell" and got the keys.  They all piled in, one on the hump in the back haha, remember those old trans ams and cameros of the early 80s?  Anyway, when they got back the kid driving handed the salesman a business card and said this man will buy me this car.  It was the business card of a local radio station program manager.  The kid had won a sweet contest.   The deal was legit.  All the other salesmen that were there earlier ignoring the kids missed out on the best sale of the month.

Now how about when you go to those demo days and you have no intention at all to buy new skis, but you just wanna try out some new stuff and see how it`s going to perform! Most of the people doing demos are not looking for a new pair of skis, but they wanna see what`s around or what`s going to be around.

Here is a quote from a demo day announcement

"Or maybe you simply want to check out the latest ski technology and give it a try."

It clearly states that even if you have no intention to buy you can still stop buy and try. I agree that this is not the best way to support local business and at least trying to get a deal with them saying you have a better price over the web is a fair proposal. The OP also stated that they don`t have the specific model he is looking for, I bet that if you go there and say you just would like to try by yourself but you are in fact looking for the PRO model they you let you do that considering you have gave them big money on past deals.

There is a huge shadow area on what`s illegal and what`s not. Am I stealing service if I stop by REI to check out a backpack that I can get cheaper on DepartmentOfGoods or GiantNerd? Don`t think so... is it because REI is not a small local shop? You have the right to go to a shop and check things out, even if you have no intention to buy, at all! I do that all the time, not because I want to buy somewhere else, but just because I want talk to people and know more about what`s available, talk about what`s coming out for the season and things like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

You're still using the climate control of the structure, and someone is probably having to watch you to make sure you don't steal anything else.  Using a company's real estate and inventory to research your internet purchase when you have zero intention of buying anything from them is just plain sleezy.  It does constitute theft of services.  It's a little less scum bagish if you at least buy something else there like some tuning supplies or whatever.  But, just going in there to borrow their boots is ghetto, redneck, low life, etc. 

 

I say the same thing about someone who'd go to a car lot to test drive a vehicle they were planning to purchase in a different state for a better deal.  You can usually get the dealers to haggle with you if you're shopping in the same general local area though..

Okay, the first sentence is just outrageous - or maybe purposely tongue in cheek. And the using the inventory bit is just a part of the game. When it comes to things like boots - unlike say long underwear - a store has to allow customers to try them on - that's just the way the business runs. It has no way of guaranteeing that any customer (or dude that walks into the store, as it were) will buy anything, but it still has to make product available to them.

Would it be theft of services if a customer went into a store to buy a specific pair of boots and then tried on three other pairs that he had no intention of buying just for a thorough comparison? He had no intention of buying those other boots, so maybe he's stealing vis a vie using the store's inventory. Or what about the guy that's planning on buying from the Internet, but is so impressed with the store's service that he ends up buying from there? Do you think the store should have arrested him at the door because he had poor intentions? It's just not black and white.

As far as I'm concerned, the Internet is a huge opportunity for retailers, many of which already have websites in addition to storefronts. Sure, it has some serious downsides, but the idea that people are being drawn into your store by another retailer should be considered a positive - if you work at it right, you have the opportunity to make a new customer. The problem is people have trouble figuring out how to properly leverage the power of the Internet, and then just lash out and heel into an outdated mentality. What retailers should be doing if they're worried about the e-consumer flyby is thoroughly highlighting the advantages, and perhaps creating new advantages, of doing business at a local shop. Even if they can't compete on price, there are some clear advantages to buying locally (besides the intangible fuzzy feeling) that can help make the difference (i.e. fitting services, free tune-ups on new gear, percentage off with purchase of xx dollars, discounts to the local hill with purchase, etc. etc.).

As others have said, I think the best way for the customer to keep his conscience clear is to at least throw out a "Here's the deal I found on the Internet, can you match it." That facilitates the conversation where the retailer can step in and either bring the price down or offer some other advantages over the e-tailer.

I like your car story, though - classic!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeUT 

 

As far as I'm concerned, the Internet is a huge opportunity for retailers, many of which already have websites in addition to storefronts. Sure, it has some serious downsides, but the idea that people are being drawn into your store by another retailer should be considered a positive - if you work at it right, you have the opportunity to make a new customer. The problem is people have trouble figuring out how to properly leverage the power of the Internet, and then just lash out and heel into an outdated mentality. What retailers should be doing if they're worried about the e-consumer flyby is thoroughly highlighting the advantages, and perhaps creating new advantages, of doing business at a local shop. Even if they can't compete on price, there are some clear advantages to buying locally (besides the intangible fuzzy feeling) that can help make the difference (i.e. fitting services, free tune-ups on new gear, percentage off with purchase of xx dollars, discounts to the local hill with purchase, etc. etc.).

 

As others have said, I think the best way for the customer to keep his conscience clear is to at least throw out a "Here's the deal I found on the Internet, can you match it." That facilitates the conversation where the retailer can step in and either bring the price down or offer some other advantages over the e-tailer.

 

I like your car story, though - classic!

I don't see anything at all wrong with going in to a brick and mortar store to gain information about a product that you saw online as long as you are upfront and honest about it.  If approached you should tell the people there your full intentions and give them an opportunity to make a counter offer, even if they don't have the exact same model in stock and would need to order it.  Saying "no thanks, I'm just looking around and am not sure what I want yet" or anything but the whole truth is dishonest at the least, fraud at the worst. 

I remember one time I was shopping for tires for a car.  I already knew a discount place had an acceptable model at a very good price.  Still, I went in to a downtown high performance auto place to see what Pirelli's were going for.  Shocked as expected I told them I couldn't go that high and said I found some Michelins at the other place.  They beat the price by $10/tire mounted with hazzard that the other place didn't include.  I had to wait a bit then saw a truck from the discount place pull up around the back with MY tires hahahaha!  Never hurts to ask and be honest.  If they act like asshats after than then the deuchiness is on them.  If you lie to them and waste their time, play with their stuff with no intention of buying it, then walk out and go click away then the deuchiness is on you.  It is as simple as that. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

You're still using the climate control of the structure, and someone is probably having to watch you to make sure you don't steal anything else.  Using a company's real estate and inventory to research your internet purchase when you have zero intention of buying anything from them is just plain sleezy.  It does constitute theft of services.  It's a little less scum bagish if you at least buy something else there like some tuning supplies or whatever.  But, just going in there to borrow their boots is ghetto, redneck, low life, etc. 

 

I say the same thing about someone who'd go to a car lot to test drive a vehicle they were planning to purchase in a different state for a better deal.  You can usually get the dealers to haggle with you if you're shopping in the same general local area though..

crg - I get that you disagree with the OP's decision, but it seems to me that you need to step back a bit and review what you're writing here.

"Using a company's real estate and inventory to research your internet purchase when you have zero intention of buying anything from them is just plain sleezy." 

I personally use a lot of different Internet sites AND brick-and-mortar businesses to research my purchases.  I have "zero intention" of purchasing the same exact item from each company I visit (either virtually or in person), but I have every intention of buying the item from one of the businesses.  I can purchase from only one place, so, according to your statement, every time I purchase something I am stealing from all of the places I used for research purposes but didn't buy from.  After all, I used the Internet sites' bandwidth, but didn't buy from them.  I used the Internet sites' different apps to compare prices and goods.  Somebody had to pay to create that Internet site, constantly update it and keep product somewhere, but I bought from only one and not the others I used. 

Turn it around, and look at it this way:  Have you ever researched something on the Internet, and then purchased it at a local store?  Well, then, you are just as guilty of doing what you have accused the OP of doing -- only in reverse.  Internet companies pay plenty of money to run their sites, gather buyers' opinions, etc., and we all take advantage of this really great opportunity to better understand what we want to purchase, where we want to take our next vacation, how much we need to buy, etc. 

The fact is that eCommerce has changed the way we do business -- for the better, in my opinion.

Good points above. You need to research a product and pricing in order to make a confident decision. Using a B&M to do so probably actually happened a lot more before the Internet - people went into multiple stores to check out items and prices without planning on buying them there that day, possibly ever. Now, you can get all that information online before going into a physical retailer. Either way, it's part of the shopping process, which is different for every consumer out there.

I'll agree that going into a retailer just to try on/out a product that you have a 100 percent intention of buying online can be shady. Unless maybe you buy something else while you're there, that's money the store makes that they wouldn't have made if you purchased directly from the e-tailer. There really isn't a one-size-fits-all norm to go by, and some of your sentiments are straight up anti-consumer (ask them to order a product that they don't have in stock? Why? Why wouldn't I just buy it from somewhere that has it in stock? I can't even use the store to try it out in that case, so why do I need to offer to make a purchase?)

Also, I'm a private guy and don't really believe in spilling my life story the minute a clerk asks "Can I help you?" Since when do transparent honesty and business go hand in hand?

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

It does constitute theft of services.

You keep saying that.  Show me a statute, from a single state or municipality that backs that statement up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating the practice of shopping locally and then ordering online, I try to support my local businesses when possible (and when they provide me with a service that makes it worth giving them the business vs one of our fine retailers on this site).  But the idea that it's actually illegal to go into a store to look at a product even though you don't plan to buy it?  Come on, get serious.  People go into stores all the time to look at products they don't plan to buy.  And I don't mean just that they don't plan to buy it *there*, because they can get it cheaper elsewhere.  People shop, sometimes that act includes browsing through products you don't have a single intention to buy, but you're curious (or heck, just bored) anyway.  You've never wandered into a store to look around simply because you were killing time waiting for someone?  Oooh, theft of services, arrest that man!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tervizeks 

crg - I get that you disagree with the OP's decision, but it seems to me that you need to step back a bit and review what you're writing here.

 

"Using a company's real estate and inventory to research your internet purchase when you have zero intention of buying anything from them is just plain sleezy." 

I personally use a lot of different Internet sites AND brick-and-mortar businesses to research my purchases.  I have "zero intention" of purchasing the same exact item from each company I visit (either virtually or in person),

 

The fact is that eCommerce has changed the way we do business -- for the better, in my opinion.

Not stepping back from that.  If you go in and use stuff that doesn't belong to you that is displayed for potential customers.... and you have ZERO intention of buying ANYTHING from them you are not a "potential customer".  You are a sleezebag.  If you are open to buying something from them, and are honest about your intentions that is perfectly OK though.  I click on internet sites with an open mind. 

Perhaps you should reread what I wrote..

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaobrien6 

 

You keep saying that.  Show me a statute, from a single state or municipality that backs that statement up.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating the practice of shopping locally and then ordering online, I try to support my local businesses when possible (and when they provide me with a service that makes it worth giving them the business vs one of our fine retailers on this site).  But the idea that it's actually illegal to go into a store to look at a product even though you don't plan to buy it?  Come on, get serious.  People go into stores all the time to look at products they don't plan to buy.  And I don't mean just that they don't plan to buy it *there*, because they can get it cheaper elsewhere.  People shop, sometimes that act includes browsing through products you don't have a single intention to buy, but you're curious (or heck, just bored) anyway.  You've never wandered into a store to look around simply because you were killing time waiting for someone?  Oooh, theft of services, arrest that man!

Not at all.  That is perfectly OK.  Then when you say "I'm just looking", or "I'm just killing time" you are telling the truth and no fraud has occurred.

Theft of services

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeUT 
 Since when do transparent honesty and business go hand in hand?

It is called "ethics".  Some people and some businesses have good ethics.  Some don't.  I know how I want to live and be remembered by those I interact with.  If I'm going to  save a few bucks I don't plan to abuse others one iota in the process.

Ok, first of all, that's not a criminal statute, that's a wikipedia page.  Second of all, nowhere on that page does it say that browsing in a store without buying anything is actually theft of services.  What I'm saying is that I believe you've made up a definition of a "service" that isn't necessarily the legal definition, and applied it to this situation.  You don't like the practice, I get it.  That doesn't make it illegal.

Earlier you said this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

You're still using the climate control of the structure, and someone is probably having to watch you to make sure you don't steal anything else.  [...]  It does constitute theft of services. 

By that definition, any time you step foot in any store and don't buy something, you've committed theft of services.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

It is called "ethics".  Some people and some businesses have good ethics.  Some don't.  I know how I want to live and be remembered by those I interact with.  If I'm going to  save a few bucks I don't plan to abuse others one iota in the process.

That's fine if you want to call it a moral or ethical issue, I won't argue that in the slightest.  But illegal and immoral/unethical are *not* the same.