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Self Defense Classes

post #1 of 44
Thread Starter 
Unfortunately, our lovely little town has been plagued by a serial attacker. He has been targeting mostly the local college girls, although I had a narrow escape from him a few months ago.
Our gym has been talking about hosting a self defense course, such as Model Mugging. {I really HATE that name} My own personal opinion is that these quick fix things are useless, but I am willing to be proved otherwise. Since most women have been able to run away from him, the guy has recently taken to using a gun. Ironically, a woman in our town cannot carry mave or pepper spray without a gun permit. But the criminals ALWAYS manage to get a gun.

Nonetheless, I really don't feel that 6 session self defense course can teach someone how to disarm an attacker.
Any thoughts?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ February 11, 2002 09:06 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Lisamarie ]</font>
post #2 of 44
Lisamarie:

Hey... Rudy is "out of work" ??

Regarding these courses.... damned near useless. All they do is provide a false sense of security. To be a "fighter", you have to have the heart and inclination or motivation to fight..... most importantly, your response must be well conditioned.

Like skiing, a good fighter does not THINK .... they just DO!

On a more positive note, learning a few escape techniques is not a bad thing as well as pointing out some of the more sensitive anatomical areas ...... eyes and nose as well as the groin ....

The biggest problem with women is getting them to do anything with a sense of assertiveness. They have some notion that paying $100 for a month of martial arts will "empower" them with the "secret moves".

Your Boston attacker is well practiced and conditioned .... at least it sounds that way. There are no "secret moves" in self defense, only well conditioned ones that must be maintained through practice.

BTW ....... I learned this the hard way. I "knew" the right moves and the right response ....... but when grabbed by the throat by a nut case one day, I went through memory meltdown.... whatever I learned ten years prior was useless.

The futility that I felt later ..... easy move to break a throat grip .... got me back to a dojo.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 31, 2001 01:30 PM: Message edited 2 times, by yuki ]</font>
post #3 of 44
LisaMarie,

As Yuki has already said self defense courses give many people a false sense of security, but anything that improves your chances could be a life saver. I rate Jamie O'Keefe and have many of his books, perhaps this one will help ....
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0951756710/o/qid=1009 902240/sr=8-1/ref=sr_aps_b_1_1/202-2779535-5358249
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...779535-5358249

Take care

DB

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 01, 2002 04:31 PM: Message edited 1 time, by DangerousBrian ]</font>
post #4 of 44
Lisa -
Kicking someone in the groan (as archie bunker would say) is great, until you have to deal with someone with a high threshold for pain. You need to actually break them down.

Just remember a few things...

1) a blow to the throat, even a fairly mild one will put an assailant down no matter what his size. Just try to put as much power into it as you can and whatever gets through will be sufficient. Side chop or straight on punch with balled fist works fine. If you can, hit him again in the same spot. Hit him a 3rd, 4th & 5th time if he's open. He'll be done by the first shot but it doesn't hurt to throw a few more if it's open and you can throw a few blows.

2) If you're grappling and he's holding your hands then he can't use his without letting you go. It also leaves his center wide open.
Rear back and smash his nose with your forehead like his head is a soccer ball and you're Pele. High pain threshold or not, if you're eyes are filled with tears because of an automatic physiological reaction, you can't see. If you can't see, it's hard to fight, unless you've trained for it. The forehead is the strongest, densest bone that you can actually throw a blow with and it's actually possible to break a mans face with it.

3) Stomping hard on his instep or kicking his knee sideways and slightly backwards will make it physiologically impossible to run.
The knee thing will also make it almost impossible to stand. Lou Costello could have outrun Jesse Owens if Jesse had a broken knee or smashed metatarsal or two.

4) If you're grappling in such a way that you can't head butt him, put your palm on his face, feel for his eyes with your fingertips and push STRAIGHT IN as hard and as far as you can. I promise you, he WILL stop whatever he's doing. Forever. Don't worry about getting a hand free. He HAS to let one of your hands go or he cannot do anything. Tying up YOUR hands ties up his.

Putting someone out of action is actually pretty easy if you don't mind breaking them.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 02, 2002 09:35 PM: Message edited 1 time, by nakona ]</font>
post #5 of 44
Good suggestions from nakona. Take a Mui Tai (sp?, it's been a while) kickboxing class where they ACTUALLY HIT things like pads on your partners arms or heavy bags. The practice of actually hitting and kicking things will make it more natural when you have to do it.

Also, learn a good back kick in case you are grabbed from behind, take out the assailant's knee, a elbow in the ribs/stomach may not be as effective.
Eyes, nose, throat, groin, knee or any combination of the above.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 02, 2002 08:01 PM: Message edited 1 time, by JimBobBubba ]</font>
post #6 of 44
JimBob:

Just like skiing, it takes more than six lessons to develop the sense of balance and agression in order to throw a successful back kick.

Lisamarie was talking about six sessions TOTAL.

There are lots of problems with women and self defense ....... can you throw a hard punch with long fingernails? Nope! They can't properly make a fist. Can those long nails do an effective eye gouge? You betcha!

The best advice is not to be where the trouble is in the first place. My favorite line was "now, you are in a bad bar ...... just what the F___ are you doing in that bar?"

In a bad area that you have to transit, carrying a cell phone ..... with 911 dialed in but not actuated ..... may not be a bad idea.

The Thai Boxing stuff is cool but requires repeated blows to weaken over time and is generally not self defense strategy stuff.

Each student should be dealt with individually and then work with those skills that they may have..... if you see potential for good snap kicks .... teach them crotch shots ......

And hope they don't connect during the lesson! :
post #7 of 44
buy some bearspray and wear it on your hip. You don't have to actually hit them with it just letting the can off in the general vicinity will likely deter further attack. Getting a tiny can of pepper spray out of your purse may not be an option in an attack. You couldn't be charged with a concealed weapon either. I can't see the cops getting to pissed about someone protecting themselves. IMHO self defense classes give people a sense of comfort and help people to go about daily life. They do not give a real security. The only way to be proficient in self defense is to join a martial arts club that practices self defense techniques with full contact. Until you can perform under duress (ie a partial ass whooping ) most grappling self defense techniques are going to have little success. See Nakona's post for the strike and flight techniques, that are easy to learn and will work.
post #8 of 44
Maybe I should add a bit more about Jamie O'Keefe -

Jamie is a 5th Dan Black belt and Self protection instructor, although he fully recognises the limitations of any trained art on the streets. For 25 years he has studied Martial arts including 15 years working on the doors of many establishments being involved in numerous real street fights (not boxing matches or martial art contests or any other type of conflict with rules). Jamie is widely recognised by many other people in the protection business, including the military services; he has also written a few books and many articles for protevtion/combat magazines. His book on female protection scores the maximum reviews (including many from other accomplished people in the protection business and from females).

Here they are again .....
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...779535-5358249

In his other books (and I assume this one is the same but I haven't read it yet) Jamie goes into the conflict avoidance, escape, use of makeshift weapons, legal, fitness, and psychology issues.

There is no guarantee that a book or 6 self defense lessons will help you in a real conflict ...... but it just might.

DB
post #9 of 44
Good points, good discussion.

Lisamarie sounds like she is athletic, flexible, well balanced. She should be a quick study in kick/seperation techniques, the emphasis on seperating yourself from the attacker and getting away.

My concern is with the assailant pinning her arms with a bear-hug from behind, she would be left with having to use her feet. With enough practice she could take out the assailant's knee with a back kick and be a block away before he knows what happened (optomistic I know, but better than being helpless). The point being on the practice of actually kicking/seperating yourself so it is done without thinking.

If I had girls they would be in Muay Thai (got the spelling right this time) kicking, punching, etc. and be in great shape as well.

Like any other physical discipline - practice, practice, practice. Make it instinctive with practice/confidence/attitude. I'm not thinking a karate contest, just to get away.

The gun thing changes everything though. What do you do if he has a gun pointed at you? Pretend to faint, fall on the ground? Hope he then puts the gun away?
post #10 of 44
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JimBobBubba:
My concern is with the assailant pinning her arms with a bear-hug from behind, she would be left with having to use her feet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If he has her in a bear hug his arms are just as pinned as hers.
post #11 of 44
Thread Starter 
Thank you for all these great responses. What is so enraging about all this is that it is happening in Brookline, which gives the semblance of being a buccolic safe community. But we are right on the border of Allston, which could be a jungle.

Even more enraging is the fact that I may have been the first in a series of attempted attacks. This happened about 2 weeks before Sept. 11th. I remember thinking naively that the world is just not as safe as I thought it was.

Just like I had done many times before, I was walking my dodg late at night when it happened. Fortunately, this guy cannot not run for s**t. And having a racing greyhound with me helped me run faster. BTW, greyhounds will NOT bite anyone. I also used my aerobic teacher scream. For that reason, I was shocked when the police informed me that no one had reported this.

When I questioned the neighbors, it was the same old liberal rant "Well....er.. you know you had your dog with you so we thought you'd be okay and the Brookline police would be so hard on the poor guy that he'd get a much harsher sentence than he deserves.
So with that attitude, they "sentenced" 7 other women.

It is now Mark's job to do the evening dog walk. Means I have to do more litterbox clean ups, UGH! But since we have so many college girls in our gym, they were thinking about instituting some sort of program.
Hopefully, none of our memembers think that taking those godawful kickbox aerobic classes that are taught by people with no martial arts background are good self defense classes! I've been telling them about the cell phone idea, and to make sure they do NOT wear those high heels when walking home at night.
post #12 of 44
The bear hug from behind is one of the easiest to escape from.

Drop quickly into a squat while raising your arms .......... follow with an elbow and a back kick ........... then run like hell .... get outa Dodge! The "Nelson" from behind is what presents a unique challenge.

Dangerous B:

Smacking someone with a REAL BIG book may just work? .. But a sharp pen or pencil in their eye will get attention every time.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 03, 2002 12:46 PM: Message edited 1 time, by yuki ]</font>
post #13 of 44
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lisamarie:
Hopefully, none of our memembers think that taking those godawful kickbox aerobic classes that are taught by people with no martial arts background are good self defense classes! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny story, comes to me in a roundabout way.
Girl who had taken Tai Bo was in Europe and was mugged. She goes into her whole stance/routine and the mugger just punched her dead in the nose.

Remember, it takes a real professional to incapacitate an opponent without doing serious harm but any amateur can kill someone.
post #14 of 44
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yuki:
Dangerous B:

Smacking someone with a REAL BIG book may just work? .. But a sharp pen or pencil in their eye will get attention every time.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The attack with the pencil to the eye, neck or top of the shoulder is in Jamie's book's along with other worthy moves to stop a woman attacker including makeshift weapons such as Scissors, Afro Comb, dinner fork, dog lead, cd case and deodorant or cleaning fluid spray attack.

You could aways tell him you were a Jehovah's Witness or a PMTS student at which point he is bound to flee

DB
post #15 of 44
I have taught Karate at Michigan State for a year shy of two decades now, been involved with Tai Chi, Judo, a little Aikido. I have taught many of the type of classes that you are speaking of. As a trained teacher and fighter I can usually pick out who will take any real benefit from the approaching clinic or seminar just from observing the demeanor and projected attitude of the individuals walking in the door. With rare exception, I'm almost always right. Anyone with my training is able to do this, I'm not blowing my horn at all. My point is that muggers and violent criminals are good at this as well, and it is almost always this instinct that yells "victim".

The people I spoke of earlier that could take some small useful amount of knowledge from these clinics are usually people that aren't afraid to become mad or to try to protect themselves or to honestly consider all the facets of the situation they're trying to deal with, including their own possible demise. Many people, men included, have not developed the tools to deal with aggression, fear, anger, etc. Until you become acquainted and comfortable with this aspect of yourself and the violence that others are capable of, you will not be very functional in those situations, regardless of your training. To deal with these types of scenarios you must be able to unleash fury and directed anger at the drop of a hat while not feeling a twinge of regret at hurting someone badly to save yourself. Most folks aren't good at this without real practice.

I'm not going to pick apart all of the "responses" to an attacker other than to say that there are times when all of these may work and a ton of times where they will not work at all. Some of the things written will only work if applied at the correct instant and only then. I guarantee that I can put a bear hug on all but the burliest men that you are not going to get out of. A real bear hug done correctly by someone of sufficient strength is immediately debilitating and if taken to extreme bone breaking. Knees are not that easy to break unless the person getting kicked stands unnaturally and lets you get a clean shot in. You can't back kick someone that is already grabbing you from behind. Most attackers don't grab you and hold you in a static position, they're tossing you around in the process of trying to immobilize or break you, that makes setting up your planned response very difficult to implement. A throat shot, if it's dead on, may put someone down, if it's not dead on run like hell. Sprinting away is usually the best first response you can have in almost any situation. The point is to end the encounter as fast as you can with as little interaction as possible. Always.

Hitting an attacker solidly that is moving with the speed and strength of one possessed and enraged is very difficult to successfully accomplish, much less strike a debilitating blow that will end the encounter. It's not reliable unless you've trained your ass off and trained in real encounters extensively, at which point that blind rage becomes a liability to the assailant.

Everybody missed fingers as superb targets for chokes and many grappling situations. grabbing the pinky and forcibly yanking/twisting it in the wrong direction can produce good results. Few can ignore breaking fingers. The back of the neck is vulnerable, jamming your nails or fingers into the ear canal is also effective. If you can get a smaller finger into the nostrils and yank, that is also disconcerting. Your jaws are incredibly strong, biting works if done with reckless abandon to most areas.Even these low skill responses have to be practiced until ingrained to be functional.

Yuki hinted at the real key to self defense. The big secret is awareness. You have to be aware of your surroundings all the time. You have to be aware of the people around you both in and out of your sphere of influence. You have to look around you. You have to look ahead of you to what situations are developing on your path, and change your path if necessary to avoid it. You have to listen around you. You have to listen to the voices inside of you, your instincts, your hunches, your feelings. Routine is obvious to criminals, change yours up often. Don't expect that wherever you are is safe because it's familiar or is supposed to be a good neighborhood. Don't trust people you don't really know. Don't think that being in a car is good protection. Survival is not about rights, being nice, fairness, justice, or socially "acceptable" behavior. It's about realizing that there are others that play by a totally different set of rules, and outsmarting them or making yourself a very undesirable target is the only way past them without taking a sidetrip into their world, which you might not survive.

In my experiance the best advice I can give to someone with no real training that finds themselves unintentionally in that 'other' world is to become as close to a maniac as you can. Scream NO at the top of your lungs, scream your name at the attacker(this has an amazing effect on some people), scream out whats happening to you, and don't stop. Roar the entire length of the encounter. Screaming kicks the adrenals into gear and makes your whole body chemistry change to deal with the approaching threat. It makes you stronger and blasts oxygen into your system as well as very directly telling the assailant that you for one will not be going quietly into the night. If it becomes physical, you must strike, claw, bite, elbow, knee, kick, punch, poke until it's over or you've been incapacitated. Good Luck.

I hope it is obvious that this is geared toward an encounter that becomes physical and can't be avoided. If someone wants your money and is armed with a gun or knife, keep your distance and throw out your money. Period. Money is never worth a chance of loss of life or the chance that by refusing you will spur a physical confrontation. Period. No matter how pissed off it makes you. Period.

Sorry I blatted so long, but, there are serious misperceptions and wives tales about "self defense" that can have sad consequences if not understood for what they are. Hope this lends another angle to view it from. I'd welcome more input, ski ski ski, it's wonderfully cathartic.

PEACE, Happy New Year

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 04, 2002 01:48 AM: Message edited 1 time, by joel ]</font>
post #16 of 44
Good post Joel,

Welcome to Epic Ski.

Your post and what Yuki said prompted me to remember something else. I was once on a bus at night in a bad area of Manchester UK (my home town). A woman wearing flat old shoes, a head scarf and an old coat got on the bus. She was also carrying an old grocery bag.

She took a new pair of hig heeled shoes and a better coat out of the grocery bag and changed these two items. She then removed the head scarf to reveal striking blonde hair, and her attractive face was now clearly visible. During that bus ride she appeared to make herself much younger, slimmer and attractive. She got off the bus in a much better area to meet her boyfriend.

Then I realised it was all just camouflage to make herself a lesser target.

DB
post #17 of 44
Lisamarie,

Hire Joel to come in and teach the self-defense classes. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Joel,
Judo class was fun, took one at the U of MN in '78. The instructor was probably in his 50's, solid as a rock, one dude you would not to mess with. Probably the best, simplest move I learned was the choke hold (flips were fun, but "complicated" for me). Actually had to use a choke hold on a out of control moron once, he became very cooperative, quite a attitude adjuster.

Do/did you know the judo instructor at the U of MN? At that time he had a female student who was the Jr. Olympic champ and helped out in the class. He also had this wrist grab move that would put you on your knees in an instant (not suggesting this as a practical self defense tactic), a humorous moment occured when he demonstrated it on me, my wrist made this cracking sound and he thought he broke something (I wasn't injured).

The bear-hug from behind on a female, if he is whispering instructions in her ear and her feet are still on the ground, why not lift a knee and smash his knee or shin? If feet are off the ground - whale away with the feet like a maniac and maybe connect with the knee or shin. Is there a bearhug breaking strategy you suggest? I know there are so many variables involved that "a" strategy is not likely, but curious.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 04, 2002 08:31 AM: Message edited 1 time, by JimBobBubba ]</font>
post #18 of 44
DB: You and the Foxhat keep me laughing!

Bubba: Have someone grab you from behind in a bear hug. Drop down FAST into a squat while extending your arms forward to a horizontal position. Trying shin or crotch shots is too hit or miss.
post #19 of 44
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yuki:

Bubba: Have someone grab you from behind in a bear hug. Drop down FAST into a squat while extending your arms forward to a horizontal position. Trying shin or crotch shots is too hit or miss.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Yuki, I get it now.

I should market a fat/ugly coat with built in Tazer charge. But the Feds. would probably require a permit to wear it and the mugger would probably sue the woman and manufacturer for damages.
:

This is kind of on topic. A few years back while living in MN, I was feeling stiff, lathargic and unmotivated by traditional workouts so I decided to try something "really different." I took some classes here: jabzkickboxing

"Everyone" should try a place like this (actually hit things), you may get "hooked" and the instructors are so darn cute, you know why their in martial arts .

Check out the "cross trainer" video.

JBB
post #20 of 44
Joel -

Good post, but I really need to disagree with a few things:

I guarantee that I can put a bear hug on all but the burliest men that you are not going to get out of. A real bear hug done correctly by someone of sufficient strength is immediately debilitating and if taken to extreme bone breaking.

Respectfully, if I keep smashing my head into your face, you'll let go.


Knees are not that easy to break unless the person getting kicked stands unnaturally and lets you get a clean shot in.

Again, I'll have to respectfully disagree. A kick, even an amateur one, applied to the front 150 degrees of the leg, as long as it's not above the kneecap, will almost always force the knee to bend in a way God didn't intend, nor provide for.

Most attackers don't grab you and hold you in a static position, they're tossing you around in the process of trying to immobilize or break you, that makes setting up your planned response very difficult to implement.

Right. They're grappling with you. And if someone is grappling with you they are going to present at least one good target and you're going to be able to hit something because if a person is using both of his hands to immobilize yours, then his are also immobilized.
Furthermore, it takes no practice or expertise to jam your fingers into someone's eye sockets as far as they will go.

A throat shot, if it's dead on, may put someone down

If I get my hand onto your throat for as much as half a second, you will die without medical attention. An opportunity to punch someone in the windpipe, and I will admit that I should have specified windpipe, won't always come up. However, if it does, it's surprisingly easy to collapse. Furthermore, most people are so shocked by it that they will often stop fighting with you while they claw at their throats.

Sprinting away is usually the best first response you can have in almost any situation. The point is to end the encounter as fast as you can with as little interaction as possible. Always.


I couldn't agree more.
post #21 of 44
Where in MN are Beth and Suzanne ........ er ...... this wonderful academy from?

Nakona: From your other post we now know you weakness .............. see ve haf hour vays .... don't ve?
post #22 of 44
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yuki:
Nakona: From your other post we now know you weakness... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, I have lots of weaknesses.
Which one did you figure out?
post #23 of 44
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yuki:
Where in MN are Beth and Suzanne ........ er ...... this wonderful academy from?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Suburb just west of Minneapolis. They had other female instructors besides Beth and Suzanne (when I was there), the class female/male ration was probably 3 to 1.

Some ladies can do a most wicked side/roundhouse kick - get their hips into it. Not trying to be sexist, just a physiological/sports related thing.

While being a guy, my favorite part of the class was the stretching time, something about physically fit, well ...

Suzanne is in the video, she could smile at me and I'd be "immobilized."
post #24 of 44
nakona,
A couple of points to clarify why I said what I said and hopefully you'll understand my positions. I first must say that my responses are geared to an inexperienced person and the likelyhood of pulling some of the responses off.

bear hug: if I put a hug on you my face will be nowhere near a position for you to smash it with your head, if I'm dumb enough to hold my head up while I get head butted I may be dumb enough not to let go. The best bear hugs pin the arms to the side while crushing the floating rib lower midback area, they can be applied to the front or back. Most people grab too high on the upper arm for real effectiveness. This one I hold my position on. The drop move Yuki mentions will work if it occurs exactly at the beginning of the attack, if the person applying it isn't trying that hard, or has insufficient strength to carry off such a brutish manuever. If the hug is established you may be able to muscle this move but many times not, if you're at all hesitant you won't. Remember that the type of fighter that tries a technique of this nature is usually of a build that this sort of solution will work for.

In response to JimBobBubba(I couldn't help writing that out in its full glory, what a hilarious post name, if it's your real one I am immediatly eating crow). Try getting one of your hands behind you and snake it down the front of his pants(I say he because very few women bear hug as an aggressive attack technique) and digging your fingers under the scrotum, squeezing fiercely, and yanking back out as hard as you can, the guy usually lets go and moves as soon as he feels the intent of his groin as a target. If your knees bend well, snapping your heel up under your butt while using that natural funnel of the legs to direct it to the groin can be unexpected and functional. If you use the instep stomp, I recommend finding the shin with the outside edge of your foot and ripping it down the tibia while using it as a guide bring your foot onto the top of the instep with less chance of missing. Like any of these, it may work it may be foiled.

Knee kicks: first off, don't get me wrong, knees are a great target, they just don't break easily, unless the leg is straight and weighted, an attack from the front usually ends up in bad bruises or a broken shin(not a bad result). Thrusting kicks to the side of the knee are a different story, but hard to set up for an inexperienced, frightened person. I'm not saying knee kicks don't work, just that you should'nt be suprised if they're still standing and still intent on hurting you after landing one.

I completely agree with you on the grappling topic, but most people without specific, consistent training are going to have a hell of a hard time finding that one shot you speak of and have the timing and calmness to pull it off. You are totally correct in that any two handed grab puts the grabber at great risk,especially if they're dealing with a skilled "victim". You can usually get in two or three devastating shots at the beginning of the grab attempt if you know what you're doing. I think the eyes are one of the ideal targets for untrained people in these types of encounters, the groin being another. Just for the record, very few people(none that I have met)can shake off a direct shot to the 'nads.

Throats: again a good target, and specifying windpipe certainly makes a difference, still, for an inexperienced striker- no guarantee. If you have good hand strength, an all out pinch to each side of the wind pipe is very functional or driving your thumb through the windpipe just below the adams apple area to the back of the neck(not literally, tho if that occurs you've ended the problem) also works and you have to worry less about aim.

I hope you didn't think I felt what you said was wrong, or had no validity. To the contrary, all of them can work, but you or I can make them work much more often than less skilled folks. I simply and respectfully submit that many of your responses seemed to assume skills on the part of the victim that I don't believe were implied in the original post. I am also paranoid about giving unskilled people the idea that there is any shortcut to self-defense ability or that there are things that always work, it's just not true. I believe you and I know this quite well, but they don't. I really thank you for spending the time to reply to some aspects of my post, getting another informed perspective always helps me and lets me see how specific I always have to be in order not to be misinterpeted. Have a great year.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 04, 2002 11:52 PM: Message edited 1 time, by joel ]</font>
post #25 of 44
I too need to be more specific about something.
You're right about a kick to the knee directly from the front not being a good bet for breaking, although if it has any sort of "scuffing" motion to it, dislodging the kneecap is a definite possibility.

I was thinking though, about a crossover kick. I mean, right foot kicks attacker right knee or left foot to attackers left knee.

Going across naturally puts you into an angle in which the knee is not particularly strong.

Even if this doesn't outright break the leg, although it usually will, it should break contact and give you a chance to run.
post #26 of 44
Thanks for the escapes. Being 6'1" and 190 I don't think of myself as sexuual assault material, so when this subject came up I started to think of what would be a most likely "capture" scenario (male assailant/female victim). A surprise attack, most likely from behind (are there stats on this?).

I've had my wife practice Yuki's bearhug escape on me. I like it, I wasn't in a psychopathic grip mode, but if the bearhug is used to intimidate the woman into compliance, do it quick or fool the assailant into thinking he has a compliant victim and do it when the grip is breakable.

IMHO the assailant is looking for a controllable victim, one that can be shocked/intimidated into compliance. People need to be able to switch from loving/cheerfull/sane mode to "that's it - your history" mode. If you can say "Oh, please don't hurt me" while squeezing/tearing the scrotum, you've got the attitude.

Like probably 95% of the population I hadn't "thought" of Yuki's escape or Joel's reach down and grab response because I just thought the chances of being a victim were so slim. Something predators are probably counting on.

If the worst case scenario happens, your in the "caught" position, know how to react to escape. Take the class, practice, be prepared to bite, claw, poke, ... don't be a victim.

End of sermon.
post #27 of 44
gottcha, that angle and type of kick can definitely wreak havoc on the knee, I think it requires excellent technique and power to consistently send home with the type of impact we're looking for, no question it can work if done well.

Thanks for bringing up the kneecap as I forgot to mention it. The tendons on top and below are good strike areas as well, both will cause temporary disfunction of the leg if impacted sharply. That little sharp area on the upper inside of the kneecap is very exposed to a crossing strike to the outside,but again a small target requiring some precision in aim although a lot less power is needed than a direct attack to the joint itself.

This stuff is not fun to think about or talk about, neither are the situations they are needed for. Hopefully none of you will ever have to try and apply them.

I believe that everyone should give themselves the opportunity to learn to protect themselves. If you have any desire to learn about this, please take the plunge and scout out the opportunities in your area. For many people this is a life changing decision, so take time with it, don't join the first or most convenient option immediatly(even if you end up there you need perspective on what is available to make an informed decision). View classes before signing anything, if you get any b.s. on this, go somewhere else. There are some amazing instructors out there, there are also some "masters" that, politely put, are simply charlitans, this is an area where the public can be easily be misled if they're unwary. Talk with the head of the school, if this is a problem, walk away. Glib speaking is no guarantee of knowledge or teaching ability. If you do talk to them your gut instinct is usually a good guide, as well as any information from outside the source. Take any opinions from one school about another with a grain of salt, some people become a bit fanatical and blind in their endeavors and thusly, intentionally or not, have inaccurate views.

Good luck however it turns out, but, do yourself a favor and give it a chance. Above all, be patient, it takes time and solid practice. What begins as impossible ends as something easy if you just keep at it. It will also do nothing but good for your skiing and mindset. Enough from me, hope it helps.
post #28 of 44
At Ju Jutsu class we have a saying:

First put in a low kick and then see how things are standing.

I like the low kick to the knee. A sweeping kick with your forward leg to the nearest available knee. You come in at higher then 90 degrees to the knee. When we practice this with big ass foam cushions held in front of the knees, most people start complaining at about 60%-70% of my kickstrenght. I don't think anybody will be standing if i get one in.

On selfdefense i would take lots of classes. Be aware of your surroundings, when possible always RUN AWAY. Do lots of grapling (bearhugs ), most fights are very close in (flying kicks to the head are for the movies). If someone has a knife RUN AWAY, best case scenario is that you are gonna get cut. If you have to fight try to breake contact and RUN AWAY.

PS Don't be afraid to kick somebody in the head when he is lying down.(Bruce Lee)
post #29 of 44
Thread Starter 
Once again, thanks. These have been some awesome responses to a rather difficult topic.
Unfortunately, management never consulted me about what type of sorse to offer. So they ended up with 2, 2 hour self defense classes. I am somehow sceptical of the effectivenss.

I mentioned earlier that the guy cannot run, worth a damn, so he is now an armed assailant. IMHO, the gym should have sponsered a bunch of lessons in firearm safety at the Framingham Rifle club, but that would be a VERY politically incorrect suggestion.

You know what they say, the girl lying dead and raped in an alley is morally far superior than the girl who shoots her attacker.

Since women cannot carry pepper spray in this town without a handgun license, Joe's bear spray idea might be a good idea.

The school Jimbubba mentioned looked good because the instructors are martial arts trained.

But one point, never EVER take any sort of kickbox aerobics class with someone who does not have a martial arts background. I have refused to go anywhere near that part of my industry for precisely that reason. I'm not trained on martial arts.

Out of all the fitness "trends" in the last 20 years, kickbox aerobics has the highest injury rate.
The "certification" for instructors of these prorams is one day long!
Thanks again!
post #30 of 44
Such a sad comment ..... YOU can't carry pepper when faced with that dilema. Carry the damned stuff and worry about the "details later".

Practice with Mark ... maybe use a mister bottle with water. Remember the old Pink Panther stuff where he was attacked and just reacted..... have him grab you at times and practice breaking away and use the water.

The Panther cartoon character was a take off on "mushin" ....... "no mind" ...... no thought, just DO!

If Mark starts to "enjoy the game" too much ...... use the pepper!
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