Quote:

Originally Posted by Stranger 

I am not in the fray here kids, just an unusual tail regarding backpacker caused fires.  

 

A few summers back there was a fairly major fire on Lake Chelan, WA.  Hiker started it while trying to be more ecologically responsible.  They started the fire by burning their used toilet paper, a crappy way to cause a disaster.  Dumb comes in all groups.

Yeah, prescribed burns also occasionally either get out of control, or re-ignite after people think they're extinguished.  Stuff happens.

That's one reason to be forgiving when someone trying to be responsible does by accident start a fire.

Most regular backpackers have the experience of either seeing poorly tended fires, or of "interesting" stove incidents.  Kinda odd to see someone claim not to have run into this, and not to have been aware that campfires by all types of users are a common cause of wildfires, but then the web can be an odd place.  Particularly when people are pursuing political agendas not direclty tied to outdoor experience.

It was reported yesterday that they found the ignition point for the Waldo Canyon fire. How do "they" do this? Also, I think "they" = the FBI -- is that common? I assume this means they don't believe it was started by lightning...

http://distancebackpacker.blogspot.com/2011/05/fire-on-pct-alcohol-stove-safety.html

Hmmm...

Then there's the recent Wallow fire in AZ and NM, caused by two hikers who left a campfire unattended, http://www.dailyhiker.com/news/restoring-landscape-after-wallow-fire/ .

Again, backpackers start a lot of fires.  So do hikers who car-camp.  There's no big secret here:  there have been warnings for decades about safe fire and stove practices, and part of the reason for that is that there is a level of risk involved.  And, inevitably, some people are either careless or unlucky or both.  Or, as noted, arsonists, or the idiot in CA who started a "signal fire" when he was lost in the woods -- stuff happens.

Because hiking and backpacking are more politically correct at the moment, what doesn't happen when you have devastating fires started by these users are a bunch of voices yelling that backpacking and hiking are just too risky to allow during the summer months.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTKook 

http://distancebackpacker.blogspot.com/2011/05/fire-on-pct-alcohol-stove-safety.html

 

Hmmm...

 

Then there's the recent Wallow fire in AZ and NM, caused by two hikers who left a campfire unattended, http://www.dailyhiker.com/news/restoring-landscape-after-wallow-fire/ .

 

Again, backpackers start a lot of fires. 

For the last 11 years, the US has averaged a little over 65,200 human-caused fires a year.  So far, three have been pointed to here, all during different years.  What constitutes "a lot of fires" for you?  Give us some hard facts instead of your usual cherry-picking and anecdotes.  

Actually, you've got things wrong here as well (and as usual).  One reason people aren't getting after backpackers is because they don't start many fires, as I've mentioned, and you have failed to prove otherwise.  But here in the southwest the public lands (entire national forests and DOI units) have been closed to all - including hikers and backpackers - in several recent summers because of fire danger.  It's not unusual in other areas as well. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTKook 

http://distancebackpacker.blogspot.com/2011/05/fire-on-pct-alcohol-stove-safety.html

 

Hmmm...

 

Then there's the recent Wallow fire in AZ and NM, caused by two hikers who left a campfire unattended, http://www.dailyhiker.com/news/restoring-landscape-after-wallow-fire/ .

 

Again, backpackers start a lot of fires.  So do hikers who car-camp.  There's no big secret here:  there have been warnings for decades about safe fire and stove practices, and part of the reason for that is that there is a level of risk involved.  And, inevitably, some people are either careless or unlucky or both.  Or, as noted, arsonists, or the idiot in CA who started a "signal fire" when he was lost in the woods -- stuff happens.

 

Because hiking and backpacking are more politically correct at the moment, what doesn't happen when you have devastating fires started by these users are a bunch of voices yelling that backpacking and hiking are just too risky to allow during the summer months.

Here you go again, denying reality to further your agenda. As I pointed out long ago, backpacking fires are already banned in many, many forests. So there's no need to ban backpacking since the fire element is already regulated.

They don't need to ban shooting outright, either. Just limit it to designated places like gun ranges and/or expand/clarify bans on high-fire-risk types of ammo and activities. The fact that they keep using the second amendment as an excuse for inaction is ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Lee 

 

For the last 11 years, the US has averaged a little over 65,200 human-caused fires a year.  So far, three have been pointed to here, all during different years.  What constitutes "a lot of fires" for you?  Give us some hard facts instead of your usual cherry-picking and anecdotes.  

 

 

Actually, you've got things wrong here as well (and as usual).  One reason people aren't getting after backpackers is because they don't start many fires, as I've mentioned, and you have failed to prove otherwise.  But here in the southwest the public lands (entire national forests and DOI units) have been closed to all - including hikers and backpackers - in several recent summers because of fire danger.  It's not unusual in other areas as well. 

Again, you are being disingenuous. 

I could go on citing fires caused by backpackers for quite some time, but frankly it would be a waste of my time.  FWIW, I just pointed to more than three fires caused by backpackers and hikers, but who's counting?  Along with arson and lighting strike, and things like equipment use, campfires have long been a major source of wildfire, and a fair number of those have been from backpackers and hikers.  It is an unremarkable thing to note, unless someone is engaged in major attempts at misdirection.

What is clear is that several posters in this thread tried to veer it in a at-times overtly leftist direction, and now will engage in great amounts of misdirection to try to cloud the issue. 

Closing public lands to all user groups, for instance, is different from singling out one user group, such as backpackers. Saying that public lands have been closed to all isn't related to whether backpackers get singled out when A backpacker causes a fire.  But, it is a good attempt at misdirection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Lee 

 

Again, you fail to point out any relevant statistics, citations or references.  I think my work with you here is done.  I don't have any political leanings on this topic, I only wanted to point out your chronic use of hyperbole, misdirection (as you so well put it), and outright bullshit.  

 

My advice, for what it is worth to the other readers, is not to take anything CTKook writes at face value unless you look into it carefully and find other substantiation.  

This type of misdirection is again typical.

For anyone who doubts if campfires are a major source of wildfires, along with arson, lightning strike, and things like equipment use, I suggest they educate themselves on the subject.  What they will find is that I am spot-on.  E.g., http://www.arborday.org/replanting/firecauses.cfm .

Being spot-on is irrelevant for a group of posters here.  It is a big problem that some posters in this thread are so focused on misdirection, and on trying to make some views beyond the pale for political rather than empirical reasons, that they will contest something as basic as the statement that:
 

"...Along with arson and lighting strike, and things like equipment use, campfires have long been a major source of wildfire". 

This is typical of the enormous bs used by some segments of the left on hot-button issues such as firearms.

Kids, stop fighting!  

Lots of stuff has caused fires, all of the above and some more; we can agree on that.  There are members of this community in trouble right now, and others that want real information.  If you want to fight take it off the floor and into PMs'.  

Now sit on your hands until you can play nice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stranger 

Kids, stop fighting!  

 

Lots of stuff has caused fires, all of the above and some more; we can agree on that.  There are members of this community in trouble right now, and others that want real information.  If you want to fight take it off the floor and into PMs'.  

 

Now sit on your hands until you can play nice.

People looking for real info could do well to read some of the www.backpackinglight.com threads I linked to, among others, along with the
 

http://distancebackpacker.blogspot.com/2011/05/fire-on-pct-alcohol-stove-safety.html piece on stove safety.  It's not too different from safe versus unsafe barbequeing:  where permitted, you can use stoves, or even have campfires, and with a few key things greatly improve your margin of safety.  People have different issues in the case of subdivisions and so forth, obviously.

In areas with a fair number of people, I also think it's fair that there frequently may be one or two parties out of 20 or 30 where maybe they are a little casual on safety issues, whether it's safe stove use or safe climbing or safe bc travel protocols.  Feeling comfortable to either try in a mellow way to speak up, or to simply change your plans and leave -- and feeling comfortable to talk to whoever a responsible ranger/etc. might be if there truly is a safety issue at hand -- can also go a long ways.  If you're backpacking and come across an untended fire or coals with no one within a reasonable ambit, for instance -- and this happens a good bit -- it's totally legit to douse their coals, preferably with their water if it's available.  They may be pissed because they don't understand what happened, and it can be a judgment call, but basically good manners gets trumped by not being hostage to their safety issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Lee 


Maybe you've already seen this. Right now, cause unknown:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/05/us-usa-wildfire-colorado-idUSBRE86416M20120705

Yeah, I've seen a bit. There was an arsonist in Teller County, nearby, the days before this started. Different county, but next door. Lots of talk about it around here, not much published info though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trekchick 

There were some illegal fireworks found in the woods near the East side of Lake Tahoe while someone was hiking yesterday.  

Makes you wonder what some people are thinking.  

I am so glad we had a good soaking rain in the Wasatch yesterday. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeUT 

You continue to miss the point. If user groups actually used discretion, and the current state of regulation was working, guns wouldn't be setting off fires all over - 21 fires in Utah alone. The whole hands off, 'pretty please use discretion' approach isn't working, time to step it up.

 

As to your other tangents, when a dozen or two fires in a few weeks' time start from synthetic fleece, cell phones, rubbing your foot against the carpet or whatever other random thing you pull out of your hat next, maybe it'll be time to take a closer look at the issue in question. But, since it seems to be guns causing that number of fires, I think it's fair to look at that problem.

 

Funny, with all the rallying around the second amendment and "you'll never take my guns" talk that I've read from the gunnies, I haven't seen a whole lot of proposals to get to the root of the problem (i.e. stop folks from doing illegal and/or high risk things like shooting tracers and exploding targets). Those are the folks that they should direct their ire toward, not government officials trying to fulfill their most basic responsibility. Maybe the gun folks should be pissed at the idiots within the group and do something to stop it rather than crying second amendment and big, intrusive government all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trekchick 

If my mom were here, she'd make CTKook and Joe UT hold hands until they could say something nice to each other, but since she's not here, may I suggest that we all understand that the real thing that causes wildfires is stoopid people. (aside from acts of God) 

 

We all get it.  There is plenty of data in this thread for all of us to read and sort it out.  Please stop bickering.  You're making my head hurt. 

I'm sure JoeUT's a cool guy.  Managing any resource involves balancing acts.  I don't know that pointing out the difference between an incendiary shell and regular ammo is "bickering," though, and likewise for stating basic facts like campfires being a major cause of wildfires, though to be fair JoeUT himself never questioned campfires being an issue. 

Stupidity does go across all user groups.  Caching illegal fireworks in forest isn't a reflection on hiking, even if someone is on foot when they do it. 

The flip side of the dryness is that it's part of what makes the west such a neat place.  With safe practices it's totally possible to enjoy all sorts of recreation, and things like great trout streams running through what can be basically desert are so striking because of the contrast.  You can be miles from any water, and have huge moths flying around you at night.  It's a great thing to safely enjoy.

Moderators Note: At the request of a few users I moved the tangent posts about guns and fires to a separate thread. For now it will stay in Aprés ski, but its getting close to being moved to Politics and Hot Topics. 

More personal note: Please drop the backpacking fires issue or take it to the gun thread I just created. I will leave them here unless the community directs otherwise. However, this thread is intended to be helpful information on fire safety in a very dry summer. Bickering about whether a backpacker lighting a fire is ok has been  through this thread already. Any further discussion on that subject is just going to be two people trying to yell over one another. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trekchick 

Amen to the more rain. 

 

I understand that the folks in Colorado are finally getting rain.  In fact, I understand that there was some dancing in the rain, but no pics to prove it. 

Best weather news all year ... (since we didn't get any good snow news...)

Monsoon Season Seems To Be Arriving In Colorado

Weekend Temps Will Be In 80s

Quote:

Originally Posted by segbrown 

 

Best weather news all year ... (since we didn't get any good snow news...)

 

 

Monsoon Season Seems To Be Arriving In Colorado

Weekend Temps Will Be In 80s

 

The monsoon season may be arriving slightly

 

early in Colorado.

 

 

The monsoons have started in New Mexico.  Rain yesterday and today in Santa Fe, and higher humidity and lower temperatures as well.  

  Backatcha.  

^ ^ ^ Well that was a one up, if ever I've seen one

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeUT 

^ ^ ^ Well that was a one up, if ever I've seen one

Like.   

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeUT 

 

I'll veer away from talk firearms talk, but since this post wasn't moved to the other, I'll respond here. I think this is general enough to be on topic here.

The forest areas are too vast and land management groups have too few resources to actually enforce bans on camp fires, target shooting, etc... on public land. And enforcement private land is difficult until there is probable cause, e.g. the fire is already started. So bans are largely  a symbolic measure like asking people to stop watering their lawns. 

 

As hot and dry as it has been, as long as there are people in the BC doing anything, hiking, shooting driving a car, they will start fires at some point. Its the weathe

 

Very true, but a ban is much better than "please use discretion". Seeing the "no fires outside of designated FS facilities" signs all over forest kiosks is surely deterring people from starting backcountry fires, and just straight out informing those that don't know any better. You may not be able to regulate stupid away, but you can attempt to minimize it through logical regulation. Most people that use forest lands have some type of respect and appreciation of the land.

 

Hopefully there's more rain on the way and this discussion can be moot.

Well put. 

I hope we get some of that  -- it was 103 degrees here in Omaha today.  I think high temps have been over 100 the past week.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trekchick 


Cheers to you!!!

 LOL! I don't know how to respond ... except to say I made another batch of "fiery" tequila today.

(I have figured out a way around my restriction on making a batch every other month: I just wait until one batch is half gone, then replenish it. Somehow that works, I think?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MidwestPete 

I hope we get some of that  -- it was 103 degrees here in Omaha today.  I think high temps have been over 100 the past week.

In Denver we had 13 days of 95+ ... which was a record. I know that doesn't seem like a lot to some of you, but REALLY????? And in June, no less. We have sent that heat wave toward the east: I apologize, sort of ... mainly just glad it's gone.

Yes you should apologize 

Seriously though it topped out at 98 here today and is supposed to be well over 100 tomorrow. It's been over 90 for the better part of a week if not longer.