Thomas Voeckler - just give him all the jerseys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by epic 

I was just thinking, if they do strip Lance of his titles, it's gonna be pretty hard to find somebody below him that raced clean and is not under suspicion. But Voeckler, just look at him, I'm pretty sure we can count him as clean. Should we just call him winner for 1999 - present?

You think here's clean? Highly unlikely

Just imagine what he rode like before PEDs 

I was just thinking the same thing the other day. You would have to go a long way down the list to find someone that wasn't dirty. Besides, I think the chances of them stripping Lance of the titles is pretty remote. It would take some hard evidence to do that, and I think if there was any, it would have come out by now. As far as Tommy V is concerned, why not? He is certainly one of the most courageous riders I've seen. And IMO, Thor Hushvovd rode one of the best Tours last year that I can remember. The guy was everywhere. They say they clocked him on one of the descents at over 69 mph. I especially liked the end of the stage where he tracked down the Frenchman and passed him up for the stage win in what was basically a ten mile sprint to the finish. And that was on Bastille Day, if I remember right. Now that was epic.

Ulrich?

You can't strip someone of his titles without unequivocal lab evidence, which doesn't exist for L.A.  It doesn't matter who comes out of the woodwork and says he was doping... if you can't prove it scientifically then it doesn't wash.  Lance has been tested more than probably any other athlete in history and has never tested positive, and that's all that matters.  Whether or not he was actually dirty doesn't matter.... most probably were back then.  They may have been breaking the rules, but the playing field was level and, in my opinion, there wasn't an unfair advantage.

It brings to mind an old SNL sketch about the 'All Drug Olympics', which probably pretty accurately describes most competition of any sort over the past 20-30 years.  In my opinion, if everybody is cheating with pharmaceuticals, then the playing field is actually level and the competition is fair, even though they're all breaking the rules.  The guy I feel sorry for is Ben Johnson at the '88 Seoul Olympics.  He got caught and there's no doubt that every other sprinter in the 100 meter finals, including Carl Lewis, was juiced as well.  He got sacrificed because, as a Canadian, and he didn't have the political clout behind him to get it swept under the carpet as would have happened if Carl Lewis had been caught.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by epic 

I was just thinking, if they do strip Lance of his titles, it's gonna be pretty hard to find somebody below him that raced clean and is not under suspicion. But Voeckler, just look at him, I'm pretty sure we can count him as clean. Should we just call him winner for 1999 - present?

or is this just your way of saying "Now that Andy's out, I wish Ti-blanc had a better team"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by exracer 

You can't strip someone of his titles without unequivocal lab evidence, which doesn't exist for L.A.  It doesn't matter who comes out of the woodwork and says he was doping... if you can't prove it scientifically then it doesn't wash.  Lance has been tested more than probably any other athlete in history and has never tested positive, and that's all that matters.  Whether or not he was actually dirty doesn't matter.... most probably were back then.  They may have been breaking the rules, but the playing field was level and, in my opinion, there wasn't an unfair advantage.

 

It brings to mind an old SNL sketch about the 'All Drug Olympics', which probably pretty accurately describes most competition of any sort over the past 20-30 years.  In my opinion, if everybody is cheating with pharmaceuticals, then the playing field is actually level and the competition is fair, even though they're all breaking the rules.  The guy I feel sorry for is Ben Johnson at the '88 Seoul Olympics.  He got caught and there's no doubt that every other sprinter in the 100 meter finals, including Carl Lewis, was juiced as well.  He got sacrificed because, as a Canadian, and he didn't have the political clout behind him to get it swept under the carpet as would have happened if Carl Lewis had been caught.
 

Really very disappointing to read this.  The athletes in Torino elected a Canadian, one with an unquestioned anti-drug stance as their representative to the IOC.  They do not want an "all drug Olympics"  and Canada, outside of Mr. Johnson, has been a very clean country.   The Canadian XC ski team and has won world championships, and Ryer H won the Giro clean.  Don't whine that Ben got screwed, rather be proud of what we have done.  And for the sake of the athletes, don't advocate a level but drugged playing field.  They don't want it, and neither does most of Canada.

I love Thomas V, but I doubt he was clean during all of those years either.  I don't see how you could have been and still be competitive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfydog 

 

Really very disappointing to read this.  The athletes in Torino elected a Canadian, one with an unquestioned anti-drug stance as their representative to the IOC.  They do not want an "all drug Olympics"  and Canada, outside of Mr. Johnson, has been a very clean country.   The Canadian XC ski team and has won world championships, and Ryer H won the Giro clean.  Don't whine that Ben got screwed, rather be proud of what we have done.  And for the sake of the athletes, don't advocate a level but drugged playing field.  They don't want it, and neither does most of Canada.

And you know this how? Because he said so.....because he rides for Mr holier than thou Vaugthers....even more of a side splitter.

I'm not accusing Ryder of anything specifically but you certainly don't know that he is clean.

 I seriously doubt any successful pro cyclist is clean.....of course I could care less whether they are or not

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfydog 

 

Really very disappointing to read this.  The athletes in Torino elected a Canadian, one with an unquestioned anti-drug stance as their representative to the IOC.  They do not want an "all drug Olympics"  and Canada, outside of Mr. Johnson, has been a very clean country.   The Canadian XC ski team and has won world championships, and Ryer H won the Giro clean.  Don't whine that Ben got screwed, rather be proud of what we have done.  And for the sake of the athletes, don't advocate a level but drugged playing field.  They don't want it, and neither does most of Canada.

I didn't mean my comments to sound like I advocate an "all drug Olympics", just the opposite.  I merely meant that before the days of intensified testing, when drug use was rampant and an accepted (but not acknowledged) part of many sports, the playing field was more or less level.  The guys that got caught were merely the tip of the iceberg.  It's still a level playing field, but the pendulum (hopefully) has swung toward clean rather than dirty competition, and hopefully the pharmaceutically enhanced athletes will be caught on a reliable basis (although that might be too much to hope for).

I know the holy Mr. Vaughters, have talked to him about the days when riders were pushed by the team into taking drugs, and know how much he wants to create and environment where it is not needed.  My next door neighbour is a board member of WADA.  I know some of Lance's old team-mates.  I've been at world cup XC races with medical credentials when testing was done.  I have a bit of an idea how much dope has been done, and who got away with it.  But, you are right, I'll correct myself---Based on my meager insight into the world of doping, I suspect Ryder Hesjedal is clean. 

And exracer, I can see you were not advocating open drug use--sorry, I was just drinking and typing.  Yeah, the playing field was level, but a disgrace.  I remember Ben with his 'roided out yellow eyes, improbable physique, and agro behaviour and have trouble seeing that he didn't get justice.  The others were guilty too, just not so overtly, and unfortunately, they didn't get caught.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfydog I remember Ben with his 'roided out yellow eyes, improbable physique, and agro behaviour and have trouble seeing that he didn't get justice.  The others were guilty too, just not so overtly, and unfortunately, they didn't get caught.

Haa haa... you nailed it.  I was running track myself back then, and before Seoul we used to talk (and chuckle) in track circles about Ben's physical transformation.  He had all the classic symptoms, particularly the jaundiced eyes and neanderthal brow bone, but we would just shrug our shoulders because we knew everyone at that level was doing it.  Like you say, he was the only one who got caught, but there's no doubt that everyone in the final that day was similarly enhanced.  I've always held the belief that when Linford Christie double false started and dq'd himself out of the 100m final at the Atlanta Olympic games, it was because he knew he wasn't going to be able to pass the drug test if he medaled.  Lo and behold, a few years later they busted him with Nandrolone in his system after an unannounced test, and that was after semi-retirement.

Give Tommy V all the jerseys, or wait for the current investigation?

French agency opens investigation into Europcar

"The allegations are reported to involve the use of intravenous solutions of vitamins and the use of corticosteroids. The World Anti-Doping Agency code bans corticosteroids administered by "oral, intravenous, intramuscular or rectal routes" in competition, and limits intravenous infusions to 50mL in cases of all but emergency situations.

The Europcar team had its best ever Tour de France in 2011, with Thomas Voeckler wearing the yellow jersey until the final time trial and Pierre Rolland coming home with a stage win on Alpe d'Huez plus the white jersey of best young rider."

Really?   Saline drips for re-hydration are now "doping"? 

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfydog 

  and limits intravenous infusions to 50mL in cases of all but emergency situations.

Several years ago (1980's) an entire team basically put themselves out of the Tour by giving them contaminated IV drips.  The team doctor said he felt it was need for a placebo effect---"the riders do better if we stick them with a needle" .  There was speculation as to how they got contaminated ie.--- what else did they put in there.

Lance explained all his needle marks by saying he didn't think the Tour could be done without IV rehydration.  When the only test for EPO was hematocrit, saline IV was used to dilute the blood and get the 'crit down to the limit of 49.9. 

I think they finally said enough is enough.

I'm thinking they should finally say enough is enough, in a "Money is making doping possible.    Ban money"-type sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfydog 

Several years ago (1980's) an entire team basically put themselves out of the Tour by giving them contaminated IV drips.  The team doctor said he felt it was need for a placebo effect---"the riders do better if we stick them with a needle" .  There was speculation as to how they got contaminated ie.--- what else did they put in there.

 

Lance explained all his needle marks by saying he didn't think the Tour could be done without IV rehydration.  When the only test for EPO was hematocrit, saline IV was used to dilute the blood and get the 'crit down to the limit of 49.9. 

 

I think they finally said enough is enough.