EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › General Skiing Discussion › heartcarving - a new way to ski
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

heartcarving - a new way to ski

post #1 of 89
6/14/12 at 10:21pm
Thread Starter 

Actually, I'm not sure if it's a new way to ski, it's just an adaptation of mine to ski without poles and on shorter and more shaped boards.

 

Check out my vids:

 

 

MACH'ing St. Anton (4:13)

 

heartcarve training (2:00)

 

I'd like to put out a pair of custom skis, a camera pole and a backpack for next season (for me) and centered around http://heartcarve.com/

Reply
post #2 of 89
6/15/12 at 4:15am

What type / how long are the skis?  It looks like snowblading actually...

Reply
post #3 of 89
6/15/12 at 5:14am

How sad am I? As soon as I saw the off-camber left turn in a tuck (starting around 0:45 in the first vid), I knew exactly which piste you were on without seeing any background terrain. I think that's a sign I've skied St. Anton too many times.

 

Anyways, it's basically like skiing big snowblades (or children's skis). Not for me, thanks.

Reply
post #4 of 89
6/15/12 at 5:35am
Thread Starter 

2012 Summit Marauders, 147/117/147 (125cm) - and yes they're called 'longboard' skiboards. I am actually thinking to produce a 144cm with a reverse cambered front and rear (and flat middle), but I've never skied reverse cambered: it's just a hunch. Those skis aren't perfect, but they are good - a little short for my liking. My previous were Nordica Dobermann 158cm (116/64/104) which worked best only in a limited range of scenarios.

Reply
post #5 of 89
6/15/12 at 6:51am
Thread Starter 

There are 3 main innovations in this way of skiing.

 

1) skiing at terminal velocity - you aren't trying to slow yourself down. You are more concerned about a route down, which if involves rapid turns, will convert forward speed into cross-run movement anyhow, so forward speed is reduced anyway without specifically trying. It's more like the feeling of a rollercoaster with a track route you create in realtime - to me it's an evolution of skiing and feels completely different and is exhilarating.

 

2) turning by relaxing - if you're in a car going around a bend and you let go of the steering wheel, the steering wheel will spin automatically to come out of the turn and then move into an opposite turn to some degree which you can then reinforce by gripping and continuing the steering again. It's the same principle with heartcarving: you want to switch from one turn to the next? Just relax the legs and the heart will move to the opposite side of the feet. Want to start turning when in a straight line? Just lift a leg and you'll lean over and start carving. Place pressure on the foot again when at the desired body angle. In the videos it looks like I am moving my legs under me, I am not, I am relaxing my legs and my upper body is moving over to the opposite side of my feet, with only an appearance of moving the feet from side to side as with more conventional skiing. (however I can consciously move and swing my feet as a throwback to a more conventional style of skiing - good for moguls - so you still need that skill)

 

3) Skiing from the heart - as an exercise, the body is split into two parts, heart and feet. And then one can think about the heart as a sphere which can move in 3 planes: pitch, yaw and roll. Also, one isn't using poles, instead they are playing with centripetal acceleration via relaxation and tension in the legs and more pronounced movements of the back (which affects the heart's pitch, yaw and roll.)  The most basic heartcarves can be done on a beginner's run with very low bodily effort or tension, or pressure (see lower video.) At higher speeds and more difficult runs, it is more intense and fun.

Reply
post #6 of 89
6/15/12 at 8:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartcarve View Post

There are 3 main innovations in this way of skiing.

 

1) skiing at terminal velocity - you aren't trying to slow yourself down. You are more concerned about a route down, which if involves rapid turns, will convert forward speed into cross-run movement anyhow, so forward speed is reduced anyway without specifically trying. It's more like the feeling of a rollercoaster with a track route you create in realtime - to me it's an evolution of skiing and feels completely different and is exhilarating.

 

2) turning by relaxing - if you're in a car going around a bend and you let go of the steering wheel, the steering wheel will spin automatically to come out of the turn and then move into an opposite turn to some degree which you can then reinforce by gripping and continuing the steering again. It's the same principle with heartcarving: you want to switch from one turn to the next? Just relax the legs and the heart will move to the opposite side of the feet. Want to start turning when in a straight line? Just lift a leg and you'll lean over and start carving. Place pressure on the foot again when at the desired body angle. In the videos it looks like I am moving my legs under me, I am not, I am relaxing my legs and my upper body is moving over to the opposite side of my feet, with only an appearance of moving the feet from side to side as with more conventional skiing. (however I can consciously move and swing my feet as a throwback to a more conventional style of skiing - good for moguls - so you still need that skill)

 

3) Skiing from the heart - as an exercise, the body is split into two parts, heart and feet. And then one can think about the heart as a sphere which can move in 3 planes: pitch, yaw and roll. Also, one isn't using poles, instead they are playing with centripetal acceleration via relaxation and tension in the legs and more pronounced movements of the back (which affects the heart's pitch, yaw and roll.)  The most basic heartcarves can be done on a beginner's run with very low bodily effort or tension, or pressure (see lower video.) At higher speeds and more difficult runs, it is more intense and fun.

 

If it's fun for you, then have at it...

 

Regarding your point#1 above.  To me, a "good" skier is one who is using their route to control their speed, using a tactic usually called "slow line fast".  Having skis that "hook up" into a new turn as fast as yours apparently do certainly helps feeling some of the sensations you describe, but they're certainly achievable on regular skis as well.

 

Also, the concept of relaxing to start a new turn works pretty well on regular skis as well.

 

You're obviously having fun at it, which (as far as I'm concerned...) is great.  I just don't see that there's anything new or revolutionary about "heart carving".

Reply
post #7 of 89
6/15/12 at 9:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartcarve View Post

There are 3 main innovations in this way of skiing.

 

1) skiing at terminal velocity - you aren't trying to slow yourself down. You are more concerned about a route down, which if involves rapid turns, will convert forward speed into cross-run movement anyhow, so forward speed is reduced anyway without specifically trying. It's more like the feeling of a rollercoaster with a track route you create in realtime - to me it's an evolution of skiing and feels completely different and is exhilarating.

 

2) turning by relaxing - if you're in a car going around a bend and you let go of the steering wheel, the steering wheel will spin automatically to come out of the turn and then move into an opposite turn to some degree which you can then reinforce by gripping and continuing the steering again. It's the same principle with heartcarving: you want to switch from one turn to the next? Just relax the legs and the heart will move to the opposite side of the feet. Want to start turning when in a straight line? Just lift a leg and you'll lean over and start carving. Place pressure on the foot again when at the desired body angle. In the videos it looks like I am moving my legs under me, I am not, I am relaxing my legs and my upper body is moving over to the opposite side of my feet, with only an appearance of moving the feet from side to side as with more conventional skiing. (however I can consciously move and swing my feet as a throwback to a more conventional style of skiing - good for moguls - so you still need that skill)

 

3) Skiing from the heart - as an exercise, the body is split into two parts, heart and feet. And then one can think about the heart as a sphere which can move in 3 planes: pitch, yaw and roll. Also, one isn't using poles, instead they are playing with centripetal acceleration via relaxation and tension in the legs and more pronounced movements of the back (which affects the heart's pitch, yaw and roll.)  The most basic heartcarves can be done on a beginner's run with very low bodily effort or tension, or pressure (see lower video.) At higher speeds and more difficult runs, it is more intense and fun.

At the risk of raining on your parade, this seems like a new aged-up version of how many of us first learn to carve. Short shaped carvers, instructor takes away your poles, you do sort of a bank/ankle roll at high enough speed that the G's keep you upright, ohmygodI'mcarving! Still really fun if you want to drag your knuckles on groomers. Gotta love basic physics. Mixed in with what looks like Wedel, c. 1970, that's still used by some programs to get people sensitized to where their edges are. Only glitch I see here is that 1) both of these can create bad habits when you're not playing on groomed green runs, and 2) unclear how the whole active upper body/passive lower body business works when you're trying to keep your COM calm and weave your lower legs through tight spaces. Like chutes, gates, trees, bumps, steeps with variable snow you're picking through, and so on. Eg., most advanced and up terrain. 

 

But I may be missing something. And it's hard to argue against being relaxed. By all means, if it works for you, carry on. smile.gif

Reply
post #8 of 89
6/15/12 at 9:38am

there is a reason not to support: whatever floats your (short ski) boat:   chewing up the snow, making little-ass bumps, being an annoying, unpredictable, unskilled twit. I've never seen such drivel passed off as skiing.

Reply
post #9 of 89
6/15/12 at 9:39am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post

At the risk of raining on your parade, this seems like a new aged-up version of how many of us first learn to carve. Short shaped carvers, instructor takes away your poles, you do sort of a bank/ankle roll at high enough speed that the G's keep you upright, ohmygodI'mcarving! Still really fun if you want to drag your knuckles on groomers. Gotta love basic physics. Mixed in with what looks like Wedel, c. 1970, that's still used by some programs to get people sensitized to where their edges are. Only glitch I see here is that 1) both of these can create bad habits when you're not playing on groomed green runs, and 2) unclear how the whole active upper body/passive lower body business works when you're trying to keep your COM calm and weave your lower legs through tight spaces. Like chutes, gates, trees, bumps, steeps with variable snow you're picking through, and so on. Eg., most advanced and up terrain. 

 

But I may be missing something. And it's hard to argue against being relaxed. By all means, if it works for you, carry on. smile.gif

 

"chutes, gates, trees, bumps, steeps with variable snow you're picking through"

 

Yeah the goal is to go terminal velocity through all that, to carve through it all. I'll need to get some footage of it. I've actually devised some exercises of the 6-planes of movement the heart can take when travelling through space during a heartcarve - I have trained on rollerblades and written about it using diagrams for a number of years now. The end result is I have a repository of muscle memory and can leave my poles at home for good without sacrificing anything.. There is definitely a "sweet spot" heartcarving zone for each ski that I try to stay within - and look for terrain that keeps me in it. The ski dictates what I can and can't do to a large degree for I need to stay in that zone.

Reply
post #10 of 89
6/15/12 at 9:47am

Are we really going to do a complete repeat of the TGR heart carving thread?

Reply
post #11 of 89
6/15/12 at 9:55am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post

Are we really going to do a complete repeat of the TGR heart carving thread?

I certainly hope not, and it's here if anyone wants to read it. http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/239850-The-Future-of-Skiing-(vid-of-skiboard-carving-14-31)

 

That said, it helps me clarify things in my mind. The energy helps me push it all forward. And, it will all be a base to launch the ski. 

Reply
post #12 of 89
6/15/12 at 10:22am

I don't know, it kind of reminds me of......Tai Chi skiing.

Reply
post #13 of 89
6/15/12 at 10:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesiredUsername View Post

I don't know, it kind of reminds me of......Tai Chi skiing.


Same here.

Reply
post #14 of 89
6/15/12 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesiredUsername View Post

I don't know, it kind of reminds me of......Tai Chi skiing.


Tai Chi Skiing was all about no edges (flat boarding).  This is not the same, except for the proselytizing claims that this is something new and represents the future of skiing.

 

Using short skis to carve has been around a long time, but it is an extremely limiting one-trick pony, and even more so when we're talking about snowblades.   I think Heartcarve would progress easily into the 154 Atomic Metrons that were so popular here 8 years ago, or any of the contemporary Eurocarvers.

 

I remember skiing on some of Max's Edelwiser skis at Snowmass a few years back and having a blast.  At least those had serious core strength and enough length to support a skier at higher speeds and higher G's.  The snowboard will just wash out when challenged with high G's, which makes the "skiing at terminal velocity - you aren't trying to slow yourself down" necessary due to limitations of the equipment.  Bottom line is, the short boards limit the skier to doing exactly what is being demonstrated (quite well) by Heartcarve.

 

2008Aspen3109.jpg

 

These skis worked in the powder too!

MaxPowder22-4-08139.jpg?t=1202267554

 

But skiing short, very shaped skis in off-piste conditions is less than ideal

 

2008Aspen3030.jpg

Reply
post #15 of 89
6/15/12 at 12:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post


Tai Chi Skiing was all about no edges (flat boarding).  This is not the same, except for the proselytizing claims that this is something new and represents the future of skiing.

 

 

 

The proselytizing claim is, more or less, what I referring to.    

 

I recall that Tai chi skiing was more about applying tai chi postures to skiing. Actually they were applying Chi Kung postures to skiing, and I think quite incorrectly.  Tai chi is a fluid activity rather than static postures that could be held through a turn.  Not that I am dismissive of tai chi,  rather I am a long time practitioner of tai chi and value the balance and flexibility of movement  I've gained from such practice.  But as a whole new world of skiing, fuggetaboudit.  

 

But I digress.   I do see the OP having a good time.  Have at it.  I would be unlikley to invest in a new product for which he appears to be testing the waters here.  I don't see myself having a good time doing this and nothing else.  I like speed and carving; I also like bumps. 

Reply
post #16 of 89
6/15/12 at 12:56pm

Cliff Taylor would have loved this.  Check him out, he was the father figure of GLM (Graduated Length Method).

 

If you are having fun, go for it.  

Reply
post #17 of 89
6/15/12 at 3:08pm

I heart short shaped skis.  icon14.gif  Any conditions, any terrain. Bring it on!

Reply
post #18 of 89
6/15/12 at 3:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post

I heart short shaped skis.  icon14.gif  Any conditions, any terrain. Bring it on!

151cm Vist plates,yeah they get the job done.
IMG_2522.jpg

Reply
post #19 of 89
6/16/12 at 10:04am

Hmmm....a remedial skier calling what he does 'new' and 'innovative', coming up with his own terms to redefine well-documented techniques and equipment as his own discovery, and trying to sell it on various sites.  Here we go again!

Reply
post #20 of 89
6/16/12 at 10:35am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abox View Post

Hmmm....a remedial skier calling what he does 'new' and 'innovative', coming up with his own terms to redefine well-documented techniques and equipment as his own discovery, and trying to sell it on various sites.  Here we go again!

 

 

This is sophistry. Do you have any vids of you skiing?

Reply
post #21 of 89
6/16/12 at 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinF View Post

 

If it's fun for you, then have at it...

 

Regarding your point#1 above.  To me, a "good" skier is one who is using their route to control their speed, using a tactic usually called "slow line fast".  Having skis that "hook up" into a new turn as fast as yours apparently do certainly helps feeling some of the sensations you describe, but they're certainly achievable on regular skis as well.

 

Also, the concept of relaxing to start a new turn works pretty well on regular skis as well.

 

You're obviously having fun at it, which (as far as I'm concerned...) is great.  I just don't see that there's anything new or revolutionary about "heart carving".

I think Kevin's take on this is pretty accurate.  

If you're having fun doing it then go for it.   This really doesn't get me stoked. 

Reply
post #22 of 89
6/16/12 at 11:05am
Thread Starter 

I've been on a number of different skis in the past 10 years and looked at and thought about many skiers and styles. There is an evolution in skiing, and it is dictated to a large degree by the equipment.

 

There's nothing out there that I want equipment-wise and I've tried different types of skis except reverse cambered.

 

I haven't been sidetracked by off-piste, racing or park skiing like many younger skiers looking for thrills.

 

I get a massive buzz from heartcarving, so that's why I'm doing it and why it feels good (most of the time) to share it.

 

In this day and age with so many sub-genres of everything, it shouldn't really be such a big deal. I ignored teachers and trends to come to this point, so if anyone wants to ignore me, I completely understand why they would. In fact, it is such a unique style, I wouldn't want to force it on anyone in the slightest - just get it out there and be done with it.

Reply
post #23 of 89
6/16/12 at 3:19pm

Free your heels, heartcarver! The limited mobility of alpine boots/bindings is holding you back. Literally. The deep knee flexion associated with extreme carving will put you in the backseat. A little bit longer ski will help when you get back. Your fore/aft balance is good though. You need more tail if you're going carvin'. :)

Reply
post #24 of 89
6/16/12 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartcarve View Post

I've been on a number of different skis in the past 10 years and looked at and thought about many skiers and styles. There is an evolution in skiing, and it is dictated to a large degree by the equipment.

 

There's nothing out there that I want equipment-wise and I've tried different types of skis except reverse cambered.

 

I haven't been sidetracked by off-piste, racing or park skiing like many younger skiers looking for thrills.

 

I get a massive buzz from heartcarving, so that's why I'm doing it and why it feels good (most of the time) to share it.

 

In this day and age with so many sub-genres of everything, it shouldn't really be such a big deal. I ignored teachers and trends to come to this point, so if anyone wants to ignore me, I completely understand why they would. In fact, it is such a unique style, I wouldn't want to force it on anyone in the slightest - just get it out there and be done with it.

 

I think the two bolded bits explain everything.  This style of skiing, short carving skis, no poles....was really popular around 15 or so years ago.  Everyone did it, it was really huge in Europe....but it died out about as quickly as it came in.  If you do some research on trends instead of ignoring them you will see you are just reviving somthing that has been around along time, but has died out in favour of more off-piste skiing. What you are doing is like showing us a hoola-hoop and claiming: 1) you invented it, and 2) its the future.

 

No doubt thou what you are doing can be fun.  I thought it was good, but I and most people found it too limiting.....hence its demise.  I agree with the others thou, glad you are enjoying it.  The key now is to be able to take those concepts and apply them on real skis in all kinds of terrain, it will make you a better skier.

 

 

Here is a vid of others doing it.  I am sure if you look you will be able to find videos of this from the mid 90s when it was big.

 

Reply
post #25 of 89
6/16/12 at 3:34pm

I like your video technique. Do you have any shots showing the camera on the pole?

Reply
post #26 of 89
6/16/12 at 3:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post

Free your heels, heartcarver! The limited mobility of alpine boots/bindings is holding you back. Literally. The deep knee flexion associated with extreme carving will put you in the backseat. A little bit longer ski will help when you get back. Your fore/aft balance is good though. You need more tail if you're going carvin'. :)

Interesting...present boots very comfortable after long search. Would have to look into teles at later point.

 

I found that if I sit up front too much then there's too pressure on knees when doing quick sharp tuns, not that my knees are weak. So rather than lean back, or set bindings back, I was thinking of creating a ski with the narrowest point forward of the midline. Do any skis have this right now?

 

You can see the shadow of the camera pole in the top vid still, but that is a great suggestion oisin, someone in the other forum wanted a second cam just to film the blinking lights of the first cam but an outside view is a great suggestion to present a pole cam I have in mind to create. Video analysis is such a good way to improve one's skiing.

Reply
post #27 of 89
6/16/12 at 4:03pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

reviving somthing that has been around along time, but has died out in favour of more off-piste skiing. What you are doing is like showing us a hoola-hoop and claiming: 1) you invented it, and 2) its the future.

 

A lot of those skiers just end up heavy on the inside ski to do the hand touching they love so much. I've invented my paradigm and approach. Those skiers really were one-trick ponies.

Reply
post #28 of 89
6/16/12 at 4:09pm
I think you're onto something with the pole cam technique. My only reservation is holding onto a pointy stick with the stick pointing down the hill. If you should drop the stick and it gets caught in the snow you could be impaled. I know it sounds unlikely but I was in a clinic once where the clinician had us pointing our ski poles forward for some reason. My pole caught the snow and I got a ski pole grip in the eye, not with any great force fortunately or I'd have been minus an eye.
Reply
post #29 of 89
6/16/12 at 4:20pm

lol more like hart sliding. this sucks and has been beaten to death on tgr. I'm glad its getting the same reception here.

Reply
post #30 of 89
6/16/12 at 4:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoal007 View Post

lol more like hart sliding. this sucks and has been beaten to death on tgr. I'm glad its getting the same reception here.

 

Fantastic avatar. Did you have any reservations that you might be rejected from the forum due to its profundity?

Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Skiing Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › General Skiing Discussion › heartcarving - a new way to ski