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U.S. Open, make yor predictions - Page 2

post #31 of 51

Again - that's an example of the same basic type of club with a far more advanced construction.  It's a completely different debate.

post #32 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post

Again - that's an example of the same basic type of club with a far more advanced construction.  It's a completely different debate.


Ya, they're just MUCH larger, shaped completely different, made of completely different materials, and have moving parts added to them.  Way more similar than a longer shafted split grip putter is to a shorter shafted putterrolleyes.gif

 

Banning metal woods would have a much larger impact on average scores than banning long putters would.

post #33 of 51

You're defensive (clearly) and missing the point of my argument.  Golf is a game that was intended to be played with a collective grip on the club.  Anchoring into your stomach or creating a huge pendulum lever like a long putter both go against this.

 

And believe it, the rule change is very likely coming.  Just because they're in play now doesn't mean the USGA and R&A are afraid to deem them illegal, just like they did with the square groove wedges.

post #34 of 51
Quote:

Originally Posted by JayT View Post

 

 

Golf is a game that was intended to be played with a collective grip on the club. 

 

 

Show me a rule that says you can't separate your hands a little with a putter or any other club for that matter.  With most clubs keeping the hands together is pretty clearly to the player's advantage.  However, if someone wanted for whatever reason to have a little space between their hands while swinging a driver I don't think it is against the rules.  The main objection to the long putters is simply because they look so goofy.  The technology in current drivers is every bit as game changing as the technology behind the banned wedges and more so than then long putters.  However, the really long drive is way too much of a crowd pleaser.  It isn't going anywhere.  Long putters, on the other hand, aren't seen as manly things for manly men. 

 

 

Just to beat this a little further, what about a really tiny shafted putter, held locked grip but only a foot long so you bend way over or kneel down to use it?  Also a pretty big difference correct?

 

As for defensive..  I'm not saying long putters should be legal.  I'm saying they are not any more unconventional than other advancements currently received with open arms.  It is the cool vs uncool factor that makes folks want to ban the putters and not the drivers.

 

 

 

 

Y'all are just jealous cuz I picked the winner well before the tournament startedtongue.gif

post #35 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

Show me a rule that says you can't separate your hands a little with a putter or any other club for that matter.  With most clubs keeping the hands together is pretty clearly to the player's advantage.  However, if someone wanted for whatever reason to have a little space between their hands while swinging a driver I don't think it is against the rules.  The main objection to the long putters is simply because they look so goofy.  The technology in current drivers is every bit as game changing as the technology behind the banned wedges and more so than then long putters.  However, the really long drive is way too much of a crowd pleaser.  It isn't going anywhere.  Long putters, on the other hand, aren't seen as manly things for manly men. 

 

 

Just to beat this a little further, what about a really tiny shafted putter, held locked grip but only a foot long so you bend way over or kneel down to use it?  Also a pretty big difference correct?

 

As for defensive..  I'm not saying long putters should be legal.  I'm saying they are not any more unconventional than other advancements currently received with open arms.  It is the cool vs uncool factor that makes folks want to ban the putters and not the drivers.


You are both right and wrong (IMHO).  The USGA wants to grow the game of golf.  The organization also wants to keep the "integrity" of the game, whatever the hell that means.  We know a lot of golf course architecture is now obsolete (this is why I play hickory shafted clubs on shorter courses), because a lot of these pros don't even come close to playing every club in their bag on most member or public courses.

 

The belly putter is great for many amateurs (like me), the manufacturers, for anyone with a disability (like a kid I know with Tourette's Syndrome), and for older people who are losing their nerves or their keen eyesight.  I does make putting easier and it does hurt the tradition aspect of the game (just like metal woods).   But innovation was always part of the game.  The old brassies had bottom weighting, strips of bamboo composed the first lightweight shafts, heel and toe weighting goes back to the early 1900's, metal woods go back to the hickory era, etc. 

 

OK, the USGA does change its mind on occasion depending upon who runs the organization.  Sam Snead was banned from putting through his legs, but the belly putter is legal.  The Royal & Ancient hated the idea of metal shafts, but gave up when good hickory was no longer available from the United States.  My take is that the USGA will never get rid of belly putters since they can't expand the game in this economy banning what keeps people from hating their rounds of golf (bad putting).

 

FWIW, Azinger went from something like 111th to 4th in putting using a belly putter in 2000 (I think that was the year).  Phil Rogers won the first tour event using the belly putter.

 

Anyone up for playing the Presidio next week with hickories?  I have an extra set. 

post #36 of 51

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/feb/05/usga-r-may-not-spare-belly-putters-after-all/

 

“The R&A do not like the fact that golfers can steady themselves by using a putter as a crutch in windy, rainy or cold weather,” the source said. “In essence, they are steadying themselves with the putter. This was never intended under the Rules of Golf. They are using the putter for something other than a traditional stroke.”

post #37 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/feb/05/usga-r-may-not-spare-belly-putters-after-all/

 

“The R&A do not like the fact that golfers can steady themselves by using a putter as a crutch in windy, rainy or cold weather,”

Crying-Baby-Natural-High-for-Some-Moms.jpg

 

Next thing they will stop allowing knee braces and those silly copper bracelets.

post #38 of 51

Uh, okay.  As someone who uses a traditional putter, being unbalanced in the wind while putting is a big deal, actually.  My point is, you asked for an example of how it may violate the rules and I delivered one.  I have issues with them for other reasons.

post #39 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post

Uh, okay.  As someone who uses a traditional putter, being unbalanced in the wind while putting is a big deal, actually.  My point is, you asked for an example of how it may violate the rules and I delivered one.  I have issues with them for other reasons.


What about cleats?  Don't they help your footing?  I asked for something in the rules that says split grip or bracing a club against your body is illegal.  You delivered nothing but excuses.

 

FWIW, I don't see myself ever using a non traditional putter.  But I'm not going to cry foul at anyone else that does while I'm swinging a metal wood.

post #40 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/feb/05/usga-r-may-not-spare-belly-putters-after-all/

 

“The R&A do not like the fact that golfers can steady themselves by using a putter as a crutch in windy, rainy or cold weather,” the source said. “In essence, they are steadying themselves with the putter. This was never intended under the Rules of Golf. They are using the putter for something other than a traditional stroke.”

 

I read the article (thanks for the link).  The article states the issue is "anchoring" the club into the body, not the club.  If the USGA does ban this, they will have to be very careful about how the rule is drafted.   Would the rule, if it came about, make illegal anyone who simply places the putter grip into his forearm and grips 15 inches or so down the shaft?  Would Bernhard Langer's putting grip (before he went to the long stick) be illegal? Aren't a couple of chipping methods also dependent upon "anchoring?"   The Phil Rogers method basically makes the butt of the club an extension of the forearm (like the Langer putting grip", and some modern chipping methods consist of using the hips to move the club while keeping the hand still, sometimes with the elbow tucked into the body. So, would anchoring the club into the forearm  be legal while anchoring it into a fat belly is illegal?   This is too confusing.  The USGA and R&A should leave this issue alone.

post #41 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

 

You should be able to put with the club in your teeth if you like. 

 

No no no no no - you've got this all wrong. You bite the head off your putter AFTER you putt.

 

 

 

I use a long long putter, but everyone says I'm "unbalanced". My prediction is that the R&A is going to ban "u" grooves on putterspopcorn.gif. Despite the recent tour/major wins by players with long putters, the USGA and R&A will have to have solid statistical evidence that long putters have significantly changed putting stats for pros before they propose new rules (last I saw the evidence was pretty weak). My assessment is that long putters facilitate a mechanically simpler swing. From an engineering perspective this means that average golfers can achieve better performance with less training effort. In theory this should help the pros too, but there's probably a diminishing returns effect when a lot of practice is factored in. Given the direction of the USGA's efforts to grow the sport, there is no way they will ban long putters or anchored strokes at the amateur level.

 

There are many examples of precedence and good reasons for rule changes for club design. I'd love to have a 30 foot long putter for that occasional two club length drop.

post #42 of 51

Pssst I think someonerolleyes.gif wants a new putter for his birthdaybiggrin.gif

post #43 of 51

Sam Snead used to putt between his legs.  If you've ever tried it, it's actually really effective on putts under 10 feet.  They banned this.  And he was using a regular putter.\

 

Cleats on shoes are part of standard approved equipment - duh.

post #44 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
Given the direction of the USGA's efforts to grow the sport, there is no way they will ban long putters or anchored strokes at the amateur level.

 

This I agree with, other than the US Amateur.

post #45 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post

Sam Snead used to putt between his legs.  If you've ever tried it, it's actually really effective on putts under 10 feet.  They banned this.  And he was using a regular putter.\

 

Cleats on shoes are part of standard approved equipment - duh.

Have you seen the putter that reaches over the shoulder (you putt with your shoulders square to the target vs aligned parallel to the target line)? (rats - can't find a link)

post #46 of 51

I still remember my first "T-Line" putter.  Must have been about 12 years old when I got one.  Now I just use a basic putt putt loaner type putter.  Not picky at all about my golf gear.  But, then I just play for fun.  I don't care if I EVER break 80.

post #47 of 51
Thread Starter 

crgildart, first off, good call on the Webb pick. Really never considered him myself, although he's been playing well for a couple of years now. It will be interesting to see if this win propels him, or if it's his one shining moment. Secondly I think Jay T is talking about an old rule which prohibited the anchoring of the club to any part of your body to make a stroke. Long putters and belly putters work in just that way. You anchor it to part of you and it helps you make a smoother stroke. Helps you avoid the dreaded yips. When they first showed up my buddies and I wondered why they were allowed. I remember reading that rule in "the rules of golf" years ago and don't know when they took it out, but there was no real discussion about it, guys just showed up with them one day. To most avid golfers, it's that lack of discussion that bothers them the most. They talked about groove changes for years before they did anything, and have been talking about changing the ball for a few years now as well. I think ultimately they will be allowed for recreation but not for high end tournament play. 

post #48 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by chip inderhol View Post

crgildart, first off, good call on the Webb pick. Really never considered him myself, although he's been playing well for a couple of years now. It will be interesting to see if this win propels him, or if it's his one shining moment. Secondly I think Jay T is talking about an old rule which prohibited the anchoring of the club to any part of your body to make a stroke. Long putters and belly putters work in just that way. You anchor it to part of you and it helps you make a smoother stroke. Helps you avoid the dreaded yips. When they first showed up my buddies and I wondered why they were allowed. I remember reading that rule in "the rules of golf" years ago and don't know when they took it out, but there was no real discussion about it, guys just showed up with them one day. To most avid golfers, it's that lack of discussion that bothers them the most. They talked about groove changes for years before they did anything, and have been talking about changing the ball for a few years now as well. I think ultimately they will be allowed for recreation but not for high end tournament play. 


Exactly.  When I first saw them, my immediate reaction was "how can that be legal?"  I'll never forget my friend's summary, which was: I'd rather be a shitty putter than do it like that.  Haha.

post #49 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post


Exactly.  When I first saw them, my immediate reaction was "how can that be legal?"  I'll never forget my friend's summary, which was: I'd rather be a shitty putter than do it like that.  Haha.

Ya, my first thought was gosh that looks really lame.  But, then I also quickly came up with quite a few other examples of silly looking people and things that one sees on a golf courserolleyes.gif

 

Plaid on plaid outfits, highlighter color polo shirts, drunk people in golf carts, people with really bad attitudes, etc..  are all pretty silly all in all.

 

Never owned a highlighter green and orange polo shirt.  Will also probably never own a long putter.

 

 

 

 

I do dig me some oversized metal drivers though hahaha!icon14.gif

post #50 of 51

Gotta love Falling Down.

post #51 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

I still remember my first "T-Line" putter.  Must have been about 12 years old when I got one.  Now I just use a basic putt putt loaner type putter.  Not picky at all about my golf gear.  But, then I just play for fun.  I don't care if I EVER break 80.

 My first putter was an old Clementine T- Line putter. I also have a Left-handed AP 33 which is an Arnold copy of the old 8802. It has the original waisted grip, so it is not legal, but I use it every year on Christmas. (handicaps are "frozen" during the winter up here).

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