EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Tasks in the exams, Done well and flaws.. (Warning, Long post)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Tasks in the exams, Done well and flaws.. (Warning, Long post)

post #1 of 28
6/12/12 at 8:07am
Thread Starter 

Since we started talking tasks in the bag of tricks thread it started to hijack the thread so I decided to start a new one.

 

This list was given to us by our examiners when the exam was a "scored" exam. Currently our ski module does not use the same score card system but the information is still relevant.

I am told that the document was authored by several examiners in our division and we were given permission to share it. This is from PSIA Western Division and their list of tasks

 

 

At Level 2

Traverse done well (could be a pure carve traverse or a "targeted" traverse (straight line))

1. Appropriate flex in all joints.
2. Upper body poised and stable, slightly countered.
3. Skis leave a narrow track
4. Lead change is appropriate for slope.
5. Edges are engaged in the snow.

Scoring:
7 = All technical elements, flawless execution
6 = Most technical elements.
5 = No major problems

Traverse Problems

1. Out of balance, awkward stance.
2. Upper body faces skis.
3. Upper body out of balance.
4. Unequal edging.
5. Stance too narrow.

Scoring:
3 = Any technical problems.
2 = Two or more problems.
1 = Shows many problems.

Skating Done Well

1. Good athletic stance.
2. Solid edging skills
3. Can roll from inside to outside edge or vice versa.
4. Upper body active but stable
5. Use of arms and hands do not effect balance
6. Center of mass travels forward

Scoring:
7 = All technical elements, flawless execution
6 = Has most technical elements.
5 = Has three technical elements.

Skating Problems

1. Out of balance.
2. Difficulty moving from foot to foot.
3. Weak edging skills, difficulty finding an edge.
4. Arm and hand activities take the upper body out of position.
5. Center of mass travels upwards not forward.

Scoring:
3 = Any technical problems.
2 = Two or more problems.
1 = Shows many problems.

Leapers done well.

1. Good athletic stance.
2. Solid edging skills = platform.
3. Leap comes from activity in ankles.
4. Lands balanced and softly.
5. Consistent turn shape.
6. Leap is done at the initiation of the turn.
7. Both skis are off the snow.

Scoring:
7 = All technical elements, flawless execution
6 = Has most technical elements.
5 = Has a few technical elements.

Leapers Problems.

1. Weak platform to leap from.
2. Leaps with use of whole body.
3. Tails or tips stay on the snow.
4. Leaps at other parts of turn.
5. Inconsistent turn radius.

Scoring:
3 = Any technical problems.
2 = Two or more problems.
1 = Shows many problems.

 

Free skiing "tasks"


Beginning Wedge Christie (demo)
Advanced Wedge Christie (demo)
Basic Parallel (demo, These are skidded soft edges)
Moderate Bumps.
Moderate Steeps.

What the examiners are looking for in these situations are solid skiing using all the movement patterns required for the skiing tasks. appropriate use of edges, Counter rotation appropriate for the terrain, good skills blend, rhythm, pole use, control, speed, COM direction, etc.
 

At Level 3

 

Hop Turns - Done Well

1. Solid fore aft balance.
2. Whole ski off the snow.
3. Tips and tails pivoting directly around skier's center of gravity.
4. Landing on clean edge (no skid)
5. Rebound-energy from landing used to launch turn.
6. Rhythmic hops (no stalls, steps, or breaks in rhythm).
7. Quiet upper body.
8. Blocking pole plant.
9. Good hop and absorbtion from ankles.

Scoring:

7 = All elements - flawless execution.
6 = All elements - clean and rhythmic.
5 = No major problems, no major breaks in rhythm (isolated minor problems in a few turns ok. Most turns must have all elements

Hop Turn - Problems.

1. Pivoting forward or aft. On tips or tails.
2. Skid on landing.
3. Lack of rebound, (skier has to jump).
4. Excessive upper body movement, flex and extension in spine.
5. Upper body rotation, hip rotation.
6. Stalls, stops, falls, break in rhythm.

Scoring:

3 = Any one of the technical problems.
2 = Two or more of these problems.
1 = Two or more of these problems with steps, stalls, falls and breaks in rhythm.

Retraction Turns

Note from writer: Personal opinion, I think we should stay away from the phony "slow dog noodle" variation of this task. Do thsi task where it applies. Slalom and Giant Slalom Radius retarction turns on groomers. Retraction in crud/powder. Retraction in small to moderate bumps. (I think we need to keep these real. But hey that's just me.).

Retraction - Done Well

1. Good fore/aft balance.
2. Quite upper body (head stays level).
3. Extension in control phase.
4. Round turn shape.
5. Appropriate edging skills, strong hip and carve on piste. Good progressive edge control in bumps/off piste.
6. Pole use driven by terrain (blocking or gliding).
7. Edge change occurs in low or flexed stance.

Scoring:

7 = All technical elements - clean and fast.
6 = All technical elements.
5 = No major problems, no major breaks off piste. Isolated minor problems okay. Most turns 90%-95% have all elements.

Retraction - Problems

1. Extension then retraction (head, upper body moves up and down).
2. Balance issues on or off piste.
3. Lack of extension in control phase.
4. Inability to control speed with turn shape.
5. Skidding - weak carving skills on piste.
6. Inability to ski retraction line in moderate bumps.
7. Inappropriate pole use/timing.

Scoring:

3 = Any one of these technical problems.
2 = Two or more of these technical problems.
1 = Failure to show retraction at all.

Pivot Side Slips - Done Well

1. Good fore aft balance.
2. Upper body faces downhill (femurs turn in hip sockets).
3. Movement downhill, simultaneous edge release, parallel skis.
4. Clean pivot (no turn).
5. Clean slip (no skid).
6. Stay in corridor.
7. Appropriate use of poles.

Scoring:

7 = All technical elements, flawless execution.
6 = All technical elements.
5 = No major problems, no major breaks. Isolated minor problems okay. Most sideslips 90%-95% have all elements.

Pivot slips - Problems

1. Out of balance.
2. Upper body follows skis/ hips turn/with skis.
3. No crossover to release edges (movement downhill).
4. Sequential edge release (stem/wedge).
5. Turn, not pivot.
6. Skid, not slip.
7. Can't stay in corridor (turning).
8. Inappropriate use of poles.

Scoring:

3 = Any one technical problem.
2 = Two or more technical problems.
1 = Two or more with breaks, stops or falls, Inability to side slip at all.

Railroad Tracks - Done Well

1. Balance and stance.
2. Forward pressure to engage tips.
3. Equal edging (sharp knees).
4. Edge change in one ski length.
5. Appropriate turn shape for terrain (no Super G)
6. Constant track width.
7. Pressure on both skis.

Scoring:

7 = All elements, flawless tracks.
6 = All elements, clean tracks.
5 = No major flaws or breaks, clean tracks. Isolated minor problems okay.

Railroad Tracks - Problems

1. Out of balance.
2. Not engaging tips with forward pressure.
3. Unequal edging.
4. Slow edge change (more than two ski lengths).
5. Any skid in tracks.
6. Speed control issues (terrain).
7. Change in track width.
8. Inside ski not weighted enough.

Scoring:

3 = Any Technical problem.
2 = Two or more technical problems.
1 = Skidded track or no inside track.

One Ski - Done Well

1. Good lateral and fore/aft balance.
2. Quiet upper body.
3. Ski stays off snow.
4. Carved medium radius.
5. Active steering to progressive edge in short radius.
6. Appropriate pole use.

Scoring:

7 = All technical elements - clean carves at speed in medium and short radius.
6 = All technical elements - Clean carves in medium radius.
5 = No major flaws or breaks, Track mostly carved in medium radius 90%-95%

One ski - Problems

1. Out of balance, fore/aft or lateral.
2. Major upper body/arm movements to maintain balance - waving ski around!
3. Ski touches snow more than once or twice (terrain).
4. Skidding medium radius.
5. Saving falls with poles.
6. Breaks, stalls and falls.

Scoring:

3 = Any technical problems.
2 = Two or more problems.
1 = Inability to keep ski up. Major falls or breaks.

 

Free skiing evaluation

 

For the rest of the skiing tasks, Here are the things we were judged on.

Dynamic medium radius turns (all conditions and terrain)
Dynamic short radius turns (all conditions and terrain)
Bumps (we did these on pretty steep and big bumps)
Steeps (think double black diamond steep)
Situational skiing (Off piste, Racing, park, Pipe, Etc)

What the examiners are looking for in these situations are solid skiing using all the movement patterns required for the skiing tasks. Active edges, Counter rotation appropriate for the terrain, good skills blend, rhythm, pole use, control, speed, COM direction, etc.

Reply
post #2 of 28
6/12/12 at 8:17am
Thread Starter 

Here are previous discussions regarding this list

 

http://www.epicski.com/t/27508/psia-w-level-ii-skiing-tasks-long

http://www.epicski.com/t/24860/psia-w-level-iii-skiing-tasks-long

 

And I also posted a thread about my experience in the new L3 Skiing format for PSIA W which includes more information about the tasks required at Level 3 for PSIA-W

 

http://www.epicski.com/t/112209/l3-ski-journey-notes-and-feedback-warning-its-going-to-be-a-long-read

Reply
post #3 of 28
6/12/12 at 9:37pm

David, you referenced multiple times the use of appropriate "counter rotation" in demos.  Could you clarify what you mean by this terminology?  Are you referring to "appropriate counter" rather than "counter rotation" because I believe there is a dramatic difference in these two terms?

Reply
post #4 of 28
6/12/12 at 10:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

David, you referenced multiple times the use of appropriate "counter rotation" in demos.  Could you clarify what you mean by this terminology?  Are you referring to "appropriate counter" rather than "counter rotation" because I believe there is a dramatic difference in these two terms?


Yup.. "appropriate counter" without the "rotation" (ski in and out of counter) but now that you bring up the distinction, I guess in the Hop turns you might see counter rotation depending on where the task was being done or we may need to apply counter rotation in some situational skiing (park and pipe) and to get out of some jams in bumps or chutes possibly. I do know the difference but I don't see them as Dramatic difference. The line between the 2 I find pretty fine.

Reply
post #5 of 28
6/12/12 at 11:07pm

Good point David.  Certainly counter rotation is a valuable tool to have for instances where we need a bit more help or a very quick turning power but it should not be a primary turning power.  

 

There is however, a clear distinction between the two.  Counter is a position, and is arrived at by turning the lower body more than the upper body.  Conversely, counter rotation is a turning power which when accompanied by down unweighting becomes the quickest, albeit short in duration, way to pivot our skis across the direction of travel.  This is evidenced by a safety stop.  If a skier fell in front of you and you had to stop abruptly you would subconsciously and simultaneously drop your CoM and twist your feet in one direction while your torso would simultaneously twist in the other to maximize the twisting efforts.

 

Both down unweighting and counter rotation are short in duration but work perfectly together to twist the feet quickly as neither requires a wind up or preparatory action.  They both happen NOW!

 

If I saw counter rotation being employed in a hop turn task, it would be scored down substantially as this demonstrates weak mechanics when used as a default or primary turning power.  Remember the bar stool analogy, if we stand on one foot or glue our feet together the likely outcome will be counter rotation.  Spread the feet a bit and use braquage and the torso remains quiet and stable.  

Reply
post #6 of 28
6/12/12 at 11:32pm
Thread Starter 

Regarding hop turns,

 

Note I mentioned "depending on where the task was being done". On firmer even ground I would agree with you. Counter rotation shows week mechanics. In deep crud, you might need some counter rotation and retraction as you pull your feet out of the crud. on steep bumps depending on what you land on, you might need some counter rotation to counter act an uneven landing on a side of a bump. In real punchy snow where you don't want to punch through by trying to rebound off your landing and no place for blocking pole plants, Counter rotation with a bit of retraction may be necessary. Again appropriate for the task/terrain in this situation?

 

During our L3 ski exam at Squaw, we did one set of hop turns in the Funitel where blocking pole plants would have landed you on your face. Even a light landing/edgeset often meant being up to your calves or even knees when you were starting the next hop. If you didn't counter rotate, push off and then retract, you would probably have ended up falling over head down the hill. That does not mean it was or is the primary turning power, but an appropriate amount of counter rotation in the task was necessary to complete the task in that location.

Reply
post #7 of 28
6/12/12 at 11:36pm
Thread Starter 

and I guess I agree with the distinction. One being more passive (counter) one being more active (counter rotation) I do think however that the 2 meet even overlap a little in some situations.

Reply
post #8 of 28
6/15/12 at 12:44pm

David,  I don't know that key distinction is passive vs. active?...  One is a position we ski into and out of and the other is a turning power which transfers rotary impulse to the skis. I believe to the casual observer or untrained eye they may look similar, especially from a still photo.  

 

Pivot slips are a perfect example of lower leg rotary where the skier moves into and out of a countered position.  If a skier counter rotates in this task it would be a fail.  The emphasis is on braquage or fulcrum turning with the feet and legs turning beneath a stable pelvis.  From the pelvis up the torso is quiet and stable.  Conversely, counter rotation actively involves the twisting of the torso in the opposite direction as the feet.  I know you know this however, I hope you can see the distinction between the two is not blurred or grey.  

 

Yes when some one is using counter rotation they are certainly countered but the opposite is NOT accurate at all.

Reply
post #9 of 28
6/15/12 at 2:42pm
Thread Starter 

Passive for me would be the pressure of the turning ski on the snow due to the edge and momentum. We stay countered or facing down the hill or towards the apex of the next turn, allowing our body to get "wound up" by the turning force of the skis

It becomes active when we continue to steer our feet to try to continue the turn up hill for speed control for instance. Often this takes more rotation (or in this case counter rotation) as we are continuing to try to wind up the body more by facing the apex of the next turn and still trying to steer the feet or legs further around..

 

Granted in pivot slips this probably would not get that far (although it might in soft pack and our tails hit a pile of snow stopping the rotation into counter) This would be active rotation or if we are trying to face down the hill and turn the feet across the hill against resistance, Counter rotation.

Reply
post #10 of 28
6/15/12 at 4:15pm
Years ago, we used to distinguish between counter rotation as a turning force and counter movement as a positional activity, kind of like turning the torso into a more anticipated position to prepare for a turn following a lengthy traverse.
Reply
post #11 of 28
6/15/12 at 9:07pm

Counter, counter movement, and counter rotation have three different meanings in my mind.

 

counter: a position where the skis point a different direction than the pelvis

 

counter movement: walking would be a good example where the left arm swings forward as the right leg swings forward 

 

counter rotation:  one part twists one direction while another part twists simultaneously in the opposite direction

 

 

I would venture to say that the relationship between counter rotation and a counter movement would be while a counter rotation would fall under the heading of a counter movement not all counter movement involve rotation or create a turning power related to skiing.

 

Counter rotation as a turning power is generally accompanied by a down unweighting but not always though it does require some type of unweighting or reduced resistance to work as it is a weak power and short in duration. 

 

dchan,  still don't know that I can agree with the passive vs. active scenario as the differentiation between counter and counter rotation? Lower leg rotary is different than counter rotation and understanding these two mechanisms will shed light how more or less rotary activity does not distinguish the two or the relationship you offer between counter and counter rotation?

Reply
post #12 of 28
6/15/12 at 9:43pm
Thread Starter 

Maybe not the "KEY" distinction between the different terms but in my mind and thinking of the physics of the descriptions, I find it makes it easier to think of it this way.

 

DC
 

Reply
post #13 of 28
6/16/12 at 8:31am

Last attempt, then I will leave it alone...

 

one is a noun, one is a verb.  one is a position, one is an action.   

 

Let me ask you these questions,

What is a passive form of counter rotation?  

What is an active form of counter?  

Can you see the problem here?

When I am using lower leg steering or turning my feet below a stable upper body, am I "countering"? or am I skiing into and out of a countered position?

 

 

 

dchan: "What the examiners are looking for in these situations are solid skiing using all the movement patterns required for the skiing tasks. Active edges, Counter rotation appropriate for the terrain, good skills blend, rhythm, pole use, control, speed, COM direction, etc."

 

This statement is the red flag to me that your understanding perceptions are a bit off the mark.  Counter rotation, though an invaluable skill or tool to have in ones tool box it is more of a recovery move than a desired default mechanism.  

 
Reply
post #14 of 28
6/16/12 at 9:26am

Maybe expanding the terms to their original form would be helpful Bud.

  • Countered position: the result of either upper or lower body rotation, or both. Arlburg techniques featured a big shoulder turn, leg steering features the legs turning in the hip sockets. Can be accomplished with counter rotary moves, or blocking of one end and rotation of the other. Blocking pole plants are a good example of the later.
  • Counter balancing moves: As your feet slip forward the typical response is to swing the arms forward. Which is a bi-lateral movement in response to losing our balance. As we walk and allow our arms to swing in a cross lateral way the intent is the same, it's a re-balancing move. A skier waving their arms to maintain, or regain balance is the most common type of move we see. A special form of this is known as angulation since the hip dropping inside the turn and the shoulders leaning outside the turn helps us re-balance on that edge platform.
  • Counter rotation: exactly as Bud described, two parts rotating in opposite directions. Can be used to create a countered stance / position but as noted above isn't necessary to produce a countered stance. Generally, counter rotation is used to offset, or manage angular momentum. swinging one arm forward while swinging the other back is an example of this.
Reply
post #15 of 28
6/16/12 at 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

.............

  • Counter rotation: exactly as Bud described, two parts rotating in opposite directions. Can be used to create a countered stance / position but as noted above isn't necessary to produce a countered stance. Generally, counter rotation is used to offset, or manage angular momentum. swinging one arm forward while swinging the other back is an example of this.

I would disagree with this, at least to a degree. The body's ability to twist or angulate above the pelvis is very limited.  It seems to me that achieving an appreciable degree of counter requires leg rotation although some of you are probably more limber than I am. Merely advancing the up hill foot requires leg rotation if your stance is to remain balanced. Counter without leg rotation  appears to be affected and awkward although again I may be underestimating your athleticism. I taught for a time in a ski school that had formerly been known as a Swiss ski school. Swiss technique was a big deal in the 70's and counter rotation was then a prominent feature in their technique. Counter rotation  typically is used to produce a counter- rotational force which is applied to the skis and not to achieve a balanced stance. A few of the remaining long term instructors I taught with still believed counter rotation to be a significant component of ski technique although, perhaps not coincidently, these tended to be the heel-pushers.


Edited by oisin - 6/16/12 at 12:28pm
Reply
post #16 of 28
6/17/12 at 1:00pm

Oisin, above the pelvis the spine has almost 180 degrees RoM in most normal folks, so I don't understand the comments about a limited RoM. Beyond that the idea of counter rotary being necessary if one leg flexes is a bit curious. Are you talking about creating an anticipated stance? As far as counter rotary producing a counter rotary force (and angular momentum BTW) that is exactly what I was trying to express. The purpose is to arrest, or at least lessen the effects of the original rotary momentum. Or as in the Arlberg technique it can be a wind up move.

Reply
post #17 of 28
6/17/12 at 5:04pm

Perhaps 90 degrees? unless you are an owl!

Reply
post #18 of 28
6/17/12 at 6:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Oisin, above the pelvis the spine has almost 180 degrees RoM in most normal folks, so I don't understand the comments about a limited RoM. Beyond that the idea of counter rotary being necessary if one leg flexes is a bit curious. Are you talking about creating an anticipated stance? As far as counter rotary producing a counter rotary force (and angular momentum BTW) that is exactly what I was trying to express. The purpose is to arrest, or at least lessen the effects of the original rotary momentum. Or as in the Arlberg technique it can be a wind up move.

You had used the term counter rotation and now you are speaking of counter rotary which may be a different animal. I'm not sure what you mean by the term. I think rotary motion of the legs is apt to be opposed by a countering force  if that is what you're referring to. Its not clear to me.  I think I can see what you mean about the use of counter rotation to arrest rotary momentum but I'm not certain about the context of the rotary momentum you speak of arresting. Would the use of counter rotation in the blocking phase of a hop turn be an example of this (maybe not a good example because I think the edge set is supposed to accomplish this but I suppose a counter rotational force stops the turning of the upper body and perhaps begins the next turn..)?

 

I must not be as limber as normal folks I don't normally find myself twisting my spine to anything approaching that degree while skiing. The pelvis, on the other hand is capable of easily being rotated that far with respect to the orientation of the skis but that is accomplished with the rotation of the legs in their sockets.  I've never said that counter rotary (your term) is necessary if one leg flexes so I guess I don't know what you are referring to.


Edited by oisin - 6/17/12 at 6:36pm
Reply
post #19 of 28
6/18/12 at 12:19am

Bud look left and right, now turn your shoulders left, then right. While siting in your chair I might add. That's not a big RoM.

 

Oisin, replace rotary with rotation if you like, the cross lateral movements used to skate, diagonal stride, herringbone are still in use. By allowing one arm and one leg to swing forward (just like when we walk) the net result is not rotational acceleration, just forward movement.

Reply
post #20 of 28
6/18/12 at 7:53am

JASP,  sorry I wasn't counting my neck ROM.

 

If we understand the difference between lower leg steering (braquage), rotary push-off, and counter rotation,  I think we will see that there is no active vs. passive between braquage and counter rotation.  They are two different mechanics.  Can they be combined? perhaps.  Are they at opposite ends of a spectrum? Not really.  Is one passive and the other active?  Definitely not!  They are both active using different biomechanics.  

 

It goes back to the simple bar stool test to understand the difference.  If we have some distance between our feet with both feet on the ground we can employ fulcrum turning (braquage).  If we stand on one foot or with feet together this ability is lost and the resulting effort to turn our feet becomes counter rotation.  Good skiers know this intuitively and when strong rotary effort is needed adjust accordingly.

 

I believe at level III this should be clearly understood?  We used to talk about "turning powers" and "turning forces" but this practice has been lost over the years.  Understanding the different ways to turn or twist our skis and what bio-mechanically is involved is an important piece knowledge to own because it is the basis for understanding many other topics.

Reply
post #21 of 28
6/18/12 at 9:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

JASP,  sorry I wasn't counting my neck ROM.

 

If we understand the difference between lower leg steering (braquage), rotary push-off, and counter rotation,  I think we will see that there is no active vs. passive between braquage and counter rotation.  They are two different mechanics.  Can they be combined? perhaps.  Are they at opposite ends of a spectrum? Not really.  Is one passive and the other active?  Definitely not!  They are both active using different biomechanics.  

 

It goes back to the simple bar stool test to understand the difference.  If we have some distance between our feet with both feet on the ground we can employ fulcrum turning (braquage).  If we stand on one foot or with feet together this ability is lost and the resulting effort to turn our feet becomes counter rotation.  Good skiers know this intuitively and when strong rotary effort is needed adjust accordingly.

 

I believe at level III this should be clearly understood?  We used to talk about "turning powers" and "turning forces" but this practice has been lost over the years.  Understanding the different ways to turn or twist our skis and what bio-mechanically is involved is an important piece knowledge to own because it is the basis for understanding many other topics.

Bud

I was just reacting to the use of the term counter rotation. To me this is a term normally used to refer a force application in which the upper body is turned in one direction and the lower body in another. This what skiers used to produce wedeln and heel thrust in the old days, This is I think, considered to be no longer a major component of skiing.because such a force application is resisted by the skis on edge and produces a skid when they are not. When the skis are off the ground or barely in touch with the ground as in a hop turn now that is a different matter. It is a something to be understood and a skill to have but not normally a significant part of mainstream ski technique hence my confusion at references to it. 

 

I also felt that perhaps there was some confusion in how a countered stance is achieved, not by twisting the spine (owl-like as you put it) to get the upper body  facing away from the skis direction of travel but instead by leg rotation which allows for far more efficient lateral balancing (angulation) by allowing the turning of the pelvis away from the skis and by allowing (for lateral balancing purposes)  the comparatively easy flexing of the spine forward and the ability of the pelvis to tilt forward as well. I only tend to react to this because I have witnessed a few ski instructors incorrectly attempting to teach angulation and counter by twisting of the torso and lateral bending of the torso. This to me is evidence of a fundamental misunderstanding and requires clarification.

 

If a person were speaking of the physics of skiing and using the term (counter rotation) loosely as I suspect it is being used here by some ,sure there are all sorts of counter rotational forces at work. A good example is the effect of leg rotation on the pelvis. If you rotate each leg about its axis in the hip socket so as to point the feet to one side away from the direction the pelvis is facing there will be no rotational force imparted to the pelvis since the rotational forces exerted upon the pelvis by each leg will effectively cancel out the other. This is what enables counter and facilitates balance and allows us to effectively reduce the turning of the upper body in the direction of the turn. It is not counter rotation in the usual meaning of the term.


Edited by oisin - 6/18/12 at 11:45am
Reply
post #22 of 28
6/18/12 at 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

Perhaps 90 degrees? unless you are an owl!

How about Chuckie?

 

Since I can almost rotate from one hip pointing forward (90 degrees of rotation from facing forward) to the other hip pointing forward (90 degrees the other way), I would accept calling that almost 180 degrees of rotation. 45 degrees one way to 45 the other for a total of 90 is pretty easy.

Reply
post #23 of 28
6/18/12 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by oisin View Post

Bud 

 

If a person were speaking of the physics of skiing and using the term (counter rotation) loosely as I suspect it is being used here by some ,sure there are all sorts of counter rotational forces at work. A good example is the effect of leg rotation on the pelvis. If you rotate each leg about its axis in the hip socket so as to point the feet to one side away from the direction the pelvis is facing there will be no rotational force imparted to the pelvis since the rotational forces exerted upon the pelvis by each leg will effectively cancel out the other. This is what enables counter and facilitates balance and allows us to effectively reduce the turning of the upper body in the direction of the turn. It is not counter rotation in the usual meaning of the term.

 

icon14.gif

 

 

@rusty

 

JASP said: "above the pelvis the spine has almost 180 degrees RoM in most normal folks"

 

I was responding to this statement regarding the spine!

Reply
post #24 of 28
6/18/12 at 9:38pm

Actually I chimed in to add support what Bud wrote. Not start a debate over definitions. Sports science uses the term beyond the swing turn maneuver mentioned here. Nor is it accurate to suggest it is not still in use. Steep chutes and tree skiing often requires a quick turn option like Bud described. Know it all, play with it all, then someday you might own it when you need it.

Reply
post #25 of 28
6/19/12 at 9:57am

FWIW, Ron LeMaster has this to say about counter rotation in his book. The Skier's Edge:

 

"Only if a skier is airborne will twisting the torso in one direction cause the skis to turn noticeably in the other direction, as in figure 8.17 (picture shows a free styler performing an aerial twister). We do see good skiers instinctively use couterrotation in such situations. It is, in fact the only technique that will turn the skis when the skier has lost contact with the snow completely. As a systematic technique for turning the skis, however, counterrotation simply does not work. It puts only a small torque on the skis, and only for an instant."

 

So, the term is certainly still in use, and the maneuver, if you want to call it that, has its place in some situations, particularly as a recovery move, as I think Bud pointed out. It just is not, as I think most would agree, a part of mainstream ski technique. 

 

I think this term remains in use in particular because it is a useful skill to have, as JASP points out. The value of such lateral learning should not be discounted but it is just that.

Reply
post #26 of 28
6/20/12 at 11:07am

Note too that the counter rotation does not create turning rather it merely increases the steering angle with a pivot because as stated above, the skis must be unweighted or deflection minimized (flat ski, icy snow surface) to use counter rotation because it is a very weak and short in duration power.

 

Note: the advantage counter rotation offers is it is the quickest means of turning the skis across the direction of travel as in a safety stop.  When you need to stop going a particular direction NOW, this is the best (only?) option.  Drop your mass (down-unweight) and simultaneously counter rotate!

 

example: we could ski in a straight run and if we only twisted along our vertical axis abruptly without unweighting the skis, they would not turn.  Only our torso would twist creating no turning power.  Conversely, if we either jump up in the air and twisted or, dropped our CoM very quickly and twisted our skis would turn a bit across the direction of travel.  The reason counter rotation is normally associated with down un-weighting is that both occur without any prep or wind up movements, they happen instantly.

Reply
post #27 of 28
6/20/12 at 11:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 

icon14.gif

 

 

@rusty

 

JASP said: "above the pelvis the spine has almost 180 degrees RoM in most normal folks"

 

I was responding to this statement regarding the spine!

ok - semantics issue - I was just reading to make sense of the statement vs a literal interpretation

Reply
post #28 of 28
6/24/12 at 12:56pm

Dchan,

 

I hope if you are still watching this thread, you have gained a better grasp on counter rotation?....

Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Tasks in the exams, Done well and flaws.. (Warning, Long post)