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Technique advice; MTB

post #1 of 30
6/7/12 at 5:44am
Thread Starter 

From the "Tips and Pointers thread" I really like the link of cornering here  [quote]Tips from the master - http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Fabien-Barels-videos--how-to-cornering.html [/quote]

 

I went out on my bike and practiced this stuff until I could do the exercise he suggests and shows on a flat surface in the last few seconds of his video.   The second clip in the link on running straight sections was also very helpful as it went into more detail on fore and aft movement and the role of the ankle in creating a dynamic suspension platform.  The second clip helped me understand the first clip much better.

 

I went out yesterday and ran the short trail that I run to gauge improvements as this trail has just about every feature.  My question comes up on fore and aft movement because my instincts from skiing tell me I want to move forward when turning down hill.   I also think I see this in Fabien's videos and it shows as a movement of the cm to make the bike flow into the turn.  

 

Much of the info that I am seeing on the net suggests moving aft to go down hill.  Now when I look at these suggestions the slopes in question are steep and the rider is using the front brake.  The force line through the cm still seems to be centered between the wheels.

 

My question is;  Am I interpreting this correctly in feeling the need for forward movement when doing a switchback or any turn downhill?  Especially when the second half of the turn is cambered?

 

Second.  Does anyone have any suggestions for good sources of techniques.  Either books, sites or vids.   It seems like a crap shoot out there looking on my own.  I usually click off the vid right away if I cannot understand the kid culture language being used.   It appears to me that the BMX crowd has a different language than the english spoken by boomers.

 

Today I hurt a little as yesterday's run was considerably faster due to my understanding of body suspension and the big increase in speed.

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post #2 of 30
6/7/12 at 4:21pm

Fore and aft are pretty much opposite from skiing.  The steeper it gets the more aft you want to be.  The cent ran crank is key as your balance point and you should be centered over it...that means back going down and forward going up, though too far forward climbing and your rear wheel will not have enough traction.  Just like in skiing, it is a balancing act.  Also when crossing mud or water keep your weight back.  Diving into turns - weight centered or back.  You will learn rather quickly what happens when your weight is too far forward, only problem is rocks and roots are harder than snow!

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post #3 of 30
6/7/12 at 4:56pm

Pierre you want to be in balance over your cranks. You want to be pushing down into them. If you are just charging straight down something you don't need to be back - not much anyway. If you are on the brakes you will have an additional force to balance against and your weight will go back - but you can go back too far. You should still be balanced on your feet and not holding yourself up with the handlebars.

 

For a book, check out Mastering Mountain Bike skills by Lee McCormack and Brian Lopes

 

Check out some World Cup videos to see how it works in the wild. Here is one from last week with lots of slo-mo

 

http://dirt.mpora.com/news/dirttv-val-di-sole-wc-finals-2012.html

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post #4 of 30
6/7/12 at 7:27pm
Thread Starter 

Being balanced over the crank makes perfect sense and fore/aft would change according to accelleration and decelleration.  If you are turning down hill with no brakes on seems to me you would change very little as you need to keep up with the bike.   If you have the brakes on you would need to move back and if you  are going to hit a dip you had best move back.

 

I can sense balance over the cranks and move automatically to make that happen.  I don't see that as being fundementally different from skiing.

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post #5 of 30
6/7/12 at 9:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 

 

For a book, check out Mastering Mountain Bike skills by Lee McCormack and Brian Lopes...

Yes, check out his website too, www.leelikebikes.com  .  He really does a great job communicating little things that make a big difference.  His books are some of the best of their kind for any movement sport. 

 

You are interpreting the need for forward movement correctly.  Just like with skiing, though the direction the hips turn is different in cornering (hopefully).  Just like with skis or snowboard, more generally the more you get used to moving your balance all over the bike, the faster your learning curve will be.  Epic's light hands/ heavy feet advice is consistent with this, you want the effect of being all over the bike to be transmitted primarily thru the feet.

 

I am a broken record on pumptracks being good things in general, but learning to pump will also fast-forward this aspect of your learning curve, and change your consciousness in terms of movement patterns.  Plus it's a great workout and great ski prep.  If there's a trail near  you with some mellow g-outs, just hitting these up repeatedly and playing with it can also be good in terms of learning weight transfer.

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post #6 of 30
6/8/12 at 4:37am
Thread Starter 

My answers in red

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

You are interpreting the need for forward movement correctly.  Just like with skiing, though the direction the hips turn is different in cornering (hopefully).  Just like with skis or snowboard, more generally the more you get used to moving your balance all over the bike, the faster your learning curve will be.  Epic's light hands/ heavy feet advice is consistent with this, you want the effect of being all over the bike to be transmitted primarily thru the feet.

 

At first I had a cushy seat on the bike cuz my tail bone hurt.  That seat started getting in the way of moving pretty fast and I went to a smaller smooth seat in a hurry. 

 

I am a broken record on pumptracks being good things in general, but learning to pump will also fast-forward this aspect of your learning curve, and change your consciousness in terms of movement patterns.  Plus it's a great workout and great ski prep.  If there's a trail near  you with some mellow g-outs, just hitting these up repeatedly and playing with it can also be good in terms of learning weight transfer.

 

After the very first trail I rode a few weeks ago I went out and bought crank brothers eggbeaters and shoes.  From the moment I clicked in it felt natural and I have not looked back.  flexing the ankles came naturally with the shoes and pedals.  That is when the seat had to go.

 

I quickly realized from the videos that I was looking at that the bike is really a third part of the legs in relation to skiing.  You have the femurs the tibias and then the bike. The dynamics are the same as skiing, you want the cm force line through the edges of the tire contact points.  Having the third link seems to mean that unless extreme berms  are encountered the upper body will generally be outside of the top tube but the cm is inside of the tire contact point on turns.  Hips seem to rotate slightly into the direction of the turn and the feet generally remain pointed forward in relation to the hips.  Outside elbow is bent more than the inside to allow the upper body to remain vertical and not bank.  In my mind there is no inconsistencies to skiing as I relate everything to center of mass and line of force instead of positions and body parts.  That is just the way my mind converts things.

 

I have to watch things some as I don't have much fear of trail features.  I have fallen twice and both times just rolled like I was on skis instead of let go and brace with my arms.  The second time I got about 50% of the way back up onto the wheels after a complete roll.  Is it possible to roll all the way back up like on ski or a white water kayak?

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post #7 of 30
6/8/12 at 7:41am
Re bailing, separating fr the bike preferably to the lowside is much much safer, for you and the bike both. On road, later.
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post #8 of 30
6/8/12 at 8:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

Re bailing, separating fr the bike preferably to the lowside is much much safer, for you and the bike both. On road, later.

I will try to remember that one.   One of the times I fell I separated.  The other time I did not.

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post #9 of 30
6/9/12 at 5:35am

Also, you'd mentioned bracing with the arms in a fall.  That will quickly lead to broken wrists and collarbones and shoulder issues.  Running out is fine, sliding is fine, if you have momentum rolling is fine sideways.  Hope the weekend's riding is good.

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post #10 of 30
6/9/12 at 6:02am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

Also, you'd mentioned bracing with the arms in a fall.  That will quickly lead to broken wrists and collarbones and shoulder issues. 

I have not had the reaction yet of wanting to brace with the arms. 

 

Went on a tougher trail yesterday and found a few more limitations for my bike.  Gearing not low enough to climb the given terrain.  Hard as I could I came to a speed to low to stay upright. Not quick enough twisting out and just kinda fell over on my side.  When going down hill on corduroy logs I encountered enough wet and mud to make the front rim brakes pretty ineffective.  I got to bouncing a bit to much  and my rear wheel dropped into a mud pit at which point the use of the rear brakes slowed the bike quick enough to dump me over. 

 

Oh well,  I will stay off the wet until I get a decent bike but I will likely try more on the hill climbs.  Maybe the position I am ending up moving to is hampering my pedalling.  Will look into that.  In the mean time I will practice moving fore/aft on the bike.   Made some footbeds for my new riding shoes and used swede leather for posting.  Should be firm but offer substantial vibration dampening.   

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post #11 of 30
6/20/12 at 4:43pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

 

You are interpreting the need for forward movement correctly.  Just like with skiing, though the direction the hips turn is different in cornering (hopefully).  Just like with skis or snowboard, more generally the more you get used to moving your balance all over the bike, the faster your learning curve will be.  Epic's light hands/ heavy feet advice is consistent with this, you want the effect of being all over the bike to be transmitted primarily thru the feet.

 

I am a broken record on pumptracks being good things in general, but learning to pump will also fast-forward this aspect of your learning curve, and change your consciousness in terms of movement patterns.  Plus it's a great workout and great ski prep.  If there's a trail near  you with some mellow g-outs, just hitting these up repeatedly and playing with it can also be good in terms of learning weight transfer.

The more I looked at the idea of pump tracks and how much fun they are the more this has changed the ideas I have about bikes and the local trails in general.   I can pump very effectively on skis and generate high angles very quickly on gentle green slopes so I started doing the same movement patterns in the parking lot on the mountain bike but the results were mixed.  The quiet upper body was somewhat elusive and I decided to start playing with the bike again.  The long stem I installed to counteract my very long arms seemed to be a problem. A bit of research brought up the idea of wider handle bars.  My handle bars were 635mm with a lot of back sweep so I went to 800 mm bars with less back sweep and  back to a shorter stem.  The results were much better but something still was not quite right.   I finally discovered that just going in the straight line and turning the bars from side to side quickly would cue me into how much the bar position was effecting balance.  I played with the bar position in the stem clamp and found a position where turning the bars back and forth had little effect on balance.   I then went back to work on turning.

 

I practiced figure 8's at slow and faster speeds.  The results were remarkable at how well I could dial in the cm movements with the bike.  Suddenly all the turning basics were making sense and falling in place.   In a couple of hours I could roll fast from one side to the other in the figure 8's and feel in balance with a light touch on the bars and light touch on the seat. 

 

Today I went back out to a parking lot and tried the pumping techniques again and this time things worked much better.  Lots of fun. After success in the parking lot I took the bike into a flowy trail that has a lot of pump track type features and had a blast.  When I was done I realized that I did not hurt and felt as though the bike had suspension even though the bike has no suspension.  The idea of a hardtail bike instead of a full suspension bike is starting to creep into my mind.   Seems to me as though a hardtail might be more fun in a pump track.  I suspect I am going to like pump track very much because I like moving the bike a lot under a stable cm.  Probably because I like mogul skiing so much.

 

Learning at a very fast pace.

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post #12 of 30
6/21/12 at 3:15am

great thread. cornering is a skill I am working on and also found a while back that going wider on the bars really affects balance (in a good way) My bike came with 710's from a low 600 set on my old bike. the improvement in balance was huge. I like the video's above. I will work on some of those drills. since I'm rehabbing' anything I can do on flat land is welcomed.  Keep it coming. 

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post #13 of 30
6/21/12 at 7:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post

.... I will work on some of those drills. since I'm rehabbing' anything I can do on flat land is welcomed.  Keep it coming. 

Don't know where you are in rehab, but if your PT and doc are cool with you riding a bike, a pump track is generally pretty low-impact ASSUMING you don't try to double anything.

 

In terms of flatground stuff, 8s are like deep corners, and slalom drills are like wiggly little turns and/or like flushes skiing.  www.leelikebikes.com has a few threads on each, both pumped and sometimes pedalled, so I'd search that site for some of this stuff (I am not affiliated with it in any way, other than owning some of Lee's books and liking the site).  You can do 8s and slaloms on either a mtb or a road bike -- or a bmx bike, there are adult-sized bmx bikes out there that are quite affordable, and people contemplating hardtails should see if they can get on a man or woman-sized bmx bike as well before making up their minds. (Hardtail mtbs are cool, but specialized in their own way, and a good hardtail mtb is pricey, whereas a good adult-sized bmx bike is not.  So a quiver of bmx and fs is easier on the wallet.)

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post #14 of 30
6/25/12 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

Don't know where you are in rehab, but if your PT and doc are cool with you riding a bike, a pump track is generally pretty low-impact ASSUMING you don't try to double anything...

Too late to edit -- someone noted to me that this is at best unclear.  PTs and docs may think riding a bike means spinning on a road, and certainly there are lots of ways to potentially end up putting a LOT of force on a knee while riding a pump track.  If you know how to pump and are at a point in rehab where mellow MTB in general is ok, pump tracks CAN generally be low-impact, assuming you focus on pumping and keeping it mellow, and particularly so in places like corners with more opportunity for mishap.

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post #15 of 30
7/11/12 at 9:41am

Pump tracks seem to continue to spread widely -- just spotted a new and nice one as part of a subdivision expansion near me, as part of what will be a very nice bike park overall when it opens.  Nice berms and multiple lines as part of it, it will be nice to save a bit on gas to hit the pumptrack.

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post #16 of 30
7/20/12 at 11:36am

http://www.leelikesbikes.com/helping-heather-irmiger-rip-the-dh.html#more-3602  Great stills of drill sequences here. 

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post #17 of 30
7/20/12 at 2:03pm

That Valmont pumptrack looks A - Mazing

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post #18 of 30
7/23/12 at 6:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

That Valmont pumptrack looks A - Mazing

The amount of good dirt getting done out there now is just great. 

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post #19 of 30
7/30/12 at 9:11am

I ordered the Book from Lee McCormack. I am not big on the whole learn technique from a book but this one actually looks like it's well-done with great sets of pictures

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post #20 of 30
8/10/12 at 12:13pm

The BMX coverage in the Olympics is maybe a bit rarified relative to even regular BMX -- check out their start! -- but watching it while, saying, thinking about some of the specifics in Lee's books, say, could be helpful.

 

Re: the BMX, it's interesting that the size of the start and some features has even made it slightly less a power game, and a bit more of a technique and pumpfest.  (They still have to be amazingly powerful, explosive riders, but just a bit less so.  It would be cool if they added a chainless pump event sometime in the future...hmmm.)

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post #21 of 30
8/10/12 at 2:20pm

Andy Coggan and Hunter Allen say that BMX, particularly at the Olympic level, is all about short bursts of power, like over 1700 watts.  They claim it is the most intense (from a power point of view) cycling there is.

 

Mike

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post #22 of 30
8/10/12 at 2:53pm

That course was amazingly techy. It was pretty cool to see the different combos of manuals and jumps that people were using to cover the same ground. It would have been really cool to see some section split-times and video overlays to see what was fastest.

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post #23 of 30
8/10/12 at 4:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by habacomike View Post

Andy Coggan and Hunter Allen say that BMX, particularly at the Olympic level, is all about short bursts of power, like over 1700 watts.  They claim it is the most intense (from a power point of view) cycling there is.

 

Mike

The point is the steep start and big features take a bit of the premium on raw power out.  Yes, power is still vitally important, but the steeper the start and the more technical the course, the less important it is relative to both pump / transition technique, and to ability to relax in the air and other periods to enable some slight recovery in between bursts of power. 

 

Go down to your local bmx track, and compare to what  you see on the Olympics. 

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post #24 of 30
8/10/12 at 5:00pm

Yea, but the competition to get the hole shot down that steep start is where the premium on power is according to Coggan and Allen -- and they trained a couple of guys for the Beijing BMX team.  They talk about the super BMX course in Beijing and how the USOC built a duplicate course in San Diego to train for.  In order to be competitive, the athletes have to generate a tremendous amount of power down that super steep start.  And you're exactly right, being smooth and relaxed in the air is the key to recovery for those spots where the bursts are really important.

 

Mike

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post #25 of 30
8/10/12 at 5:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by habacomike View Post

Andy Coggan and Hunter Allen say that BMX, particularly at the Olympic level, is all about short bursts of power, like over 1700 watts.  They claim it is the most intense (from a power point of view) cycling there is.

 

Mike

http://www.trainingandracingwithapowermeter.com/2010_05_01_archive.html  Amusingly, HA and AC actually expand a bit in complete agreement with what I was saying,

 

"For starters, it is important to realize that the Olympic BMX Super Cross track is not your regular backyard local track. This thing is practically a motocross track!...The demands of the track are different than a regular track and therefore some of the best BMXers on the national BMX circuit did not excel on this track."

 

  • "Pedal less, win more....we found that the guys who made the Olympic team pedaled less than those that did not make the team.
  • 100% "fast twitchers" may not make the best BMXers, at least for the SX....

  • Fatigue resistance matters. ."

 

I am snipping heavily, and it's better to read the full text.  They don't get into measuring pump, and actually one reason why those who do well don't have to pedal as much is in fact better pumping skills.

 

Not that different from riding a ryhthm section versus pedaling hard to jump off of a speed bump.  It's a simple technical point.  BMX has been about short bursts of power for some time, SX made it more technical.

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post #26 of 30
8/10/12 at 5:34pm

I don't think we are in disagreement.  Yea, you pedal less.  But when you pedal, you put massive amounts of power into it. 

 

Mike

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post #27 of 30
8/16/12 at 4:32pm
Thread Starter 

A bit of an update.    I ordered Lee's book on Mastering Mountain Bike Skills and the book on Teaching Mountain Bike Skills.  The dual resource of having both books is quite enlightening since I have been teaching myself.    I did a lot of practice on the attack position, pedalling/spining, especially in the attack position, climbing, braking and shifting gears/chainline.   I combined that with going over logs, cornering and over obstacles.

 

After feeling that I had a fair grasp of the basics I started to use intent and pick the terrain to blend the skills.  It took a while and lots of practice in the yard and on the trails but I now feel pretty smooth and comfortable on all the local stuff.  I stack up very well against most of the local riders.   I think I would enter the time trials at the local trails this weekend in the old guys category except I am acting as an old guy and caring for my wife nearly round the clock right now.

 

I also ordered Zinn's Mountain Bike Maintenance and find the book to be a good reference.

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post #28 of 30
8/26/12 at 10:06am

I really got a lot out the book as well. Worked on some skills since I was limited this summer. I got in some decent rides for the first time last week, 3 good rides all with decent 1200' climbs and switchbacks; the last was 13 miles with the first 6.5 miles having a 1850 climb with switchbacks and then a couple miles of traversing and a few miles of downhill on narrow sections, switchbacks with loose stuff. The trail is not technical but it is  beautiful trail with varied terrain, aspen stands, huge ferns, evergreens and open ridge line along the top of a mountain. This really give me some good opportunities to work on skills. Even without clipless and a leg not quite there yet, I was climbing better, banking and just riding faster and smoother. The book is really laid out well with excellent photos clearly showing riding position. I normally hate the notion of learning skills like skiing or riding from a book, Lee's book is a clear exception to this rule.  

 

Pierre, I am not sure if your wife is ill, (not being too personal) but I wish you both well. 


Edited by Finndog - 8/26/12 at 10:16am
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post #29 of 30
8/26/12 at 3:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post

I really got a lot out the book as well. Worked on some skills since I was limited this summer.... I normally hate the notion of learning skills like skiing or riding from a book, Lee's book is a clear exception to this rule....

Great!

 

There's one moto book which I think is a B to Lee's A in the "skills from books" category, but I really think all of Lee's output still sets the bar.

 

He's also motivational because he does address what you can do on those days when you can't take the bike out of the driveway -- and there's a lot you can do on a bike without leaving the driveway.  Of course, he has two young rugrats himself, so you know how that goes, he's probably had his share of "only driveway" days himself.

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post #30 of 30
8/27/12 at 6:40am

yep! some times I just do circles in the driveway working on staying centered, turning the hips over the frame while tilting the bike. Practice weighting and pumping the front end and balancing on the bike at a stand still.  A lot of this translates to skiing. Especially moving your head and body into the new turn and a skill I have really worked on is looking farther ahead. I had a real mistrust of myself and didn't look far enough ahead. Lee really stress's the need to look into the new turn. He's right, the more I do it, the easier it gets and the more fluent my riding becomes; I don't hit the brakes as much anymore; just burn speed at the beginning and exit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

Great!

 

There's one moto book which I think is a B to Lee's A in the "skills from books" category, but I really think all of Lee's output still sets the bar.

 

He's also motivational because he does address what you can do on those days when you can't take the bike out of the driveway -- and there's a lot you can do on a bike without leaving the driveway.  Of course, he has two young rugrats himself, so you know how that goes, he's probably had his share of "only driveway" days himself.

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