Bag of Tricks -- what are the staples? - Page 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolo 

SkiDude72, I think I understand your concerns, and while I agree that a recreational skier will give her- or himself the best advantage by taking lessons from a qualified professional who presumably would introduce him or her to many of these exercises in the course of the instruction, that's not happening with great regularity in the real world. Industry surveys show that the least popular product ski schools offer is the advanced lesson. I don't know why, but I suspect it has to do with the perception that lessons aren't worth their time or money. Some instructors have found that writing a book for popular consumption is a way to market advanced lessons, as readers find that reading about how skiing better leads to a desire for coaching from the author or the author's understudies. I'm stealing a page from their book, you might say. 

 

The dangers of misunderstanding what is required of an exercise could be mediated by providing accurate models -- video models for each exercise would be ideal. 

 

Rusty, the exercise caveat usually is to consult a medical doctor to see if you are fit enough for vigorous exercise. Same as the Viagra ads. I have never seen one that told me to consult a certified fitness pro before embarking on the program. But these fitness regimens are on dvd, so you are "with" the exercise pro who put the program together, though certainly no one is watching to see if I am doing it with proper form. I am told to check my reflection in the TV and compare it to the others doing the exercises. 

Well that certainly isnt the case in places like Whistler.  The advanced lesson programs are abundant, and booming.  Two Alpine Pods, stacked with full time pros, numerous GAP programs, Xtremely Canadian, Dave Murray Camps, Ski Esprit, Level 1 program, etc etc. 

Adie, I must own thirty of them, if not more. Can't say any one book covers the whole subject though. Vagners covers the math pretty well, Greys helps us identify what body parts and systems are in use. Brancasio covers the bio mechanics pretty well, Joulbert covers the technique pretty well, Barnes covers the definitions pretty well and all of his graphics help bring those ideas of his to life, Weems and his sports diamond cover the mindset and how to avoid OCD both as a student and teacher. Lemaster and Larson cover racing and race technique very well. The Harvey girls did great work illuminating the stepping stones concept and the advantages of non linear teaching progressions. Foster helped so mant learn to carve. The Marhe twins added the wonderful concept of good turn bad turn along with a plethora of drills that will take an ordinary skier well past aspiring advanced levels. Islin, Galloway, Witherall, Gushman, Harb, the list goes on and on. In fact, that is exactly why I wrote about so much of this being already out there and how a superficial re-packaging of the ideas first presented by all of these folks doesn't do them justice. Lemaster did a wonderful tribute lecture and I will alway remember his phrase about nothing being truely new, it may be new to you (or me) but for the most part we are only re-telling ideas and information first developed by some pretty darn good skiers who were also lifelong students of the sport. It's only by standing on their shoulders that we can explore the future of our place in this sport. Respect that, learn from them, question what you don't understand, and at some point you will find convergence in all of it. If you're really lucky you will eventually own all the moves that go along with all that information.That's how Epic can help you, not by publishing a list of drills, but through discussions that may lead you to investigate ideas on a deeper and more meaningful level. That's the path to expertise.

I have many of these myself JASP. The point I'm trying to make is that the heightened reticence that has emerged with respect to publishing drills does seem to contradict preparedness to consult other written advice. I understand the depth to which many of these publications go into helps but take for example Ron LeMaster's superb Ultimate skiing. There are drills in there which are, when it comes down to it, only described in word. There is no video example to follow; there is no form of feedback to correct poor execution, yet this is a valuable, valid and expert resource. I understand the differences but find the distinction strange and at times pedantic.

I have no doubt that skiing with an expert and following her advice is probably the best way to move forward but there are other valid ways to progress. I can't see how it is the job of others to decide who is ready for what. There are all sorts of factors involved including affordability. I would prefer someone to be at least trying to work on some aspect of their technique rather than flying down the hill with no though for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skidude72 

 

I have no idea what you are talking about.  But to answer the only part I did understand...for me its "D".  In places like Whistler it happens alot, a few minutes here or there I can usually get most people out of trouble with just a few minutes of my time.  I do this whether in uniform or not.  How I do it, is assess their needs (usually can be done in time it takes me ski up to them)....then i help as required. 

 

Never had a fear of giving away secrets, nor have I ever handed someone a list of exercieses, nor have I ever explained to them how Huddler works

You got it. We can do "D" on the slopes. How do we "D" on the Internet? The people in trouble have to find us. If ask.com kept popping up ahead of epicski when people were searching for ski answers, we'd never have a chance to do "D" because those people would never know about Epic. Huddler is very good at getting at Epic to appear at the top of ski related searches, but their approach would not be nearly as effective if we did not have quality content that matches what people are searching for. Behind the scenes, Nolo and Huddler have discussions about things we can do to be more successful. Like it or not, lists are attractive. It's like having a friend that can get you into the hottest bar in town on Friday night without waiting in line, but only if you bring your hot (but too slutty for your tastes) friend along with you. 

I'm not fond of bait (generic list of exercises) and switch (personalized advice) as a sales tactic, but it is effective. A well crafted list of exercises can generate more inquiries for personal assistance. There is no doubt that even the best crafted list will lead some skiers down the slow road to improvement. This is a case where if the horse wants hay, we have to be really crafty about leading it to water and we have to recognize some of the horses are just going to eat hay no matter what we do.

So while Nolo is herding up the horses, how do we plan to lead them to water? My first idea is to have a wiki page for each drill. There will be two big goals we're trying to reach. The first is a resource for training instructors for when and why to use a specific drill and how to provide accurate feedback. The second is to provide enough information for do it yourself skiers to either do it or realize they need help. One of the big problems I have with lists of drills is that most skiers often need to master an easier drill before attempting a more difficult one. Without any help, they'll just cheat to do the difficult drill and ingrain an ineffective movement.  With wikis we can link drills together like falling leafs to side slips so that people who find a falling leaf to hard to do can work on side slips and people who have trouble doing side slips can do ....

My second idea is to generate some information about customizing drills. I've noticed that the demo team guys often customize their drills on the spot. But nobody ever teaches the teachers how to do this. With the right info we can accelerate the growth of mid level instructors to the top level and help the do it yourselfers see more value in personalized coaching. At my resort we have a great lesson product called "ski with me". I'ts a parent and child lesson where the first half of the lesson is the pro teaching the child and the second half is the pro teaching the parent how to teach the child. The only problem is that in about 75% of these lessons that I've taught, the parent goes "Oh no - I could never do that. You just keep on going". This has given me the belief that it is possible to change the mind of some do it yourselfers. I'm getting better at showing the parents that they can be effective ski coaches for their children. I'm not yet getting better at getting other instructors to the point where they are customizing their exercises. I'm thinking that this more of an advanced MA clinic focus, but I need help here. I'm going to take an idea for this over to the locker room forum for a separate thread.

I think you guys are conflating a bunch of different sub-populations.

There are a lot of us (nowhere near a majority, I'd bet, but still a lot) who take lessons AND try self-help.

The biggest value-added in advanced lessons is assessment.  When we get stuck, we need someone who can help us figure out what is going wrong and get back on track.

How does this apply to do-it-yourself drills?  It means a drill is useless (for DIY) if it cannot be accurately self-graded.

So what does work?  Probably the ones in the "exaggerate across the spectrum and feel the difference" family.  Any others?

Adie, Pedantic? Really? Sorry you see my opinion as such. Ski technique is about those little details, at least as far as I am concerned. I took up this sport a long time ago and I did so because you just didn't strap on a pair of skis and instantly ski expertly. Same goes for teaching well.

Sorry if I caused any offence JASP. I certainly didn't mean any. The reference wasn't to a person or even really to an opinion, it was to the distinction not the people who hold it. Maybe in the UK we use pedantry in a different way. As I say and this is my opinion the distinction is flawed and inconsistent.

I aslo think and it's something I've picked up on here before that there is a lack of recognition by some of skiers and incredibly passionate skiers at that, who don't have the luxury of a ski area nearby or even in the same country but have to live off scraps and crave knowledge wherever it can be found. It is not ideal and at 55 I'm still striving to chage it but for now it's the world some of us inhabit.

Nolo, thanks for the lifebelt there but I don't even know what curmudgeon means for sure. It's certainly not a word I use even if it might be what I meant. Thanks anyhow and keep plugging away with this one. We'll get there in the end. There are enough skilled and willing contibutors who are behind the idea!

Nolo, No one is questioning your qualifications, or education. What's not so clear is why an industry insider like yourself who has made more than a few bucks teaching would write about DIY home projects as superior to hiring a qualified pro. Especially in the middle of a thread where you are soliciting information from Epic's qualified pros. Dumb idea my friend.

As far as the content of the articles Rogan and others submit to Ski mags, the publisher decides what they publish, not the contributing editors. They also pay for those articles instead of soliciting pro bono stuff from them. Maybe if you paid those top pros they would submit articles here, or let you post them like Lemaster does. Which would make the need to solicit advice from me and the rest of the pros who do pro bono stuff here unnecessary. Getting past that, I hope you publish your article and people see it as valuable. Obviously I don't see a need for another superficial DIY article. The ski world is already full of them.

One last thing is your comment about ivory towers. Euclid and Einstein live there, not me.

a couple of words about DIY ski instructing....

....Maintaining an on-going instructional relationship with a strong teacher who can coach you as you work on your skiing is the best case scenario.  But some people who want to improve their skiing do not have the budget to support such a program of lessons, or have not found the right teacher.  

....Some people have tried lessons but haven't yet found the right coach to help them improve.  Taking a lesson from one pro which does not work out that well, then taking another from a different pro in hopes of a lightbulb moment, and consequently finding things still aren't clicking is just a waste of time and money.  But if the second pro contradicts what the first pro told you, you're worse off than you started; you're now fully confused and filled with self-doubt. This is detrimental to progress. 

....Buying a ski instruction book or set of instructional videos is going to solve the inconsistency problem that comes from hopping around looking for the right instructor.  A book or set of videos embodies the view of one pro, and most likely promotes a tested progression that has worked for many students.  Consistency of instruction is very important when learning to ski; if the right pro hasn't turned up yet, it may be time for a book or set of videos.  The best ones will include information on how to self-check for accuracy.  Going with a real pro to double check what you're doing on occasion would be a good supplement to this approach.  Video sets and books do cost money, and some budgets might be pretty low given the current economy.

....A free list of drills found on an internet ski forum could be somewhat useful, maybe.  But to be useful at all, this list would need to be situated inside some overview of an intended progression of skills, so the learner would know how the drills fit in.   It would also need explanations of how to self-check to see if one is doing the drills right or not.  But it might lack the single vision embodied in something created by one instructor.  A consistent vision matters; I think this is the big issue for trying to create this list from suggestions from multiple voices. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolo 

Why should the ski teaching profession insist that students can learn only face to face or through direct dialog? How about "self-directed learning"?

Who wrote or insisted that?  Every pro here agreed books/videos etc were a great source of info, and I am sure everyone agrees that many people learn on their own. 

What you are suggesting is creating a low quality product, in the hopes it might convince people to try a high quality product.  It might.  But they sure wont go to the person who gave out the low quality product to get the high quality product.

Show you are capable of a high quality product, and then people might try it.  Handing out garbage and saying "but I got good stuff too!" is high unlikley to result in a positive outcome for the students, the pros, the sport or the teaching profession.

Huh? Using Epic to lead folks to those more detailed publications (books, reference manuals, etc) is something I have been advocating all along. So I really don't understand this statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolo

Why should the ski teaching profession insist that students can learn only face to face or through direct dialog? How about "self-directed learning"?

As far as your example, it is obvious to me that when it comes to the air conditioner your husband is not the target audience for a superficial troubleshooting guide. Nor would you be the target audience for the superficial articles in the Ski mags. My biggest concern has always been the plug and play crowd that perceives those superficial lists as so much more than the author intended. Dogmatic acceptance of that sort of advice is quite common among less experienced folks and in my experience that includes a lot of the newer instructors who we spoon feed progressions and drills. So it's not surprising to me when they come to a training clinic in search of even more rote progressions and prescriptive advice. It's a stage and not a bad thing up to a point. I keep telling a story about less experienced pros learning a new drill during a clinic and then for the next month they use it in every lesson they teach. Doesn't matter if it's appropriate, it's their new toy and they use it excessively.

The question becomes when are they capable of transcending the use of plug and play (rote) progressions? BTW, here in RM it's quite common for an examiner to solicit alternative lesson plans just because that rote memorization practice is so common. IMO if a student, or instructor understands the skills concept well enough, they understand that particular drill as just one way to develop a skill and when that one way doesn't work for them, they can creatively develop an effective alternate lesson plan. That's the challenge, how do we design activities that promote a deeper understanding of skill development?

I definitely see the points you guys are making but I honestly can't see that much harm in giving people a list of drills if that is what they are asking for...

Yes some people will make their skiing worse because they aren't getting the specific feedback that they MIGHT get if they are lucky enough to get a good pro... some might actually improve their technique through experimentation and self discovery. Perhaps an instructor looking for some inspiration will find a new trick that clicks for his/her clients and learns something new about skiing in the process.... maybe he/she will screw their clients skiing up completely because they didn't understand the context or how to properly adapt it to each students specific needs. Maybe people will try drills...realize they don't have the right prescription or dosage and consult an instructor. Or maybe it will inspire the next trend on the hills... ticking drills and we'll see kids in Braquage specific skis in the 2015 lift lines!

Misinformation already happens on a regular basis. How often do you have a client who has difficulty with the advice you are giving them because some other instructor told him the opposite (or at least what they perceived to be the opposite)? Or they got bad advice from their "expert ski buddy?" Or they read such in such on epic ski etc?

Yes misinformation can be "harmful" to ones ski technique... but to quote Aspen Extreme - " We are not curing cancer here. We are teaching people how to slide down hills with sticks on their feet."

If people get some entertainment from a list... then by all means enjoy.

At last a bit of common sense. Thanks Skinerd!

What about Bloom? Pavlov?

Comprehension of concepts and synthesis of meaningful opinions, plus conditioned responses. Drills are not skiing and that is exactly why part of the trainer's test includes how much your student adopts the changes you suggested in you mock lesson. Do they understand the shift in their skills bias you are suggesting and do they own the skill set (BTW, did you help them develop it) to ski differently (as prescribed / suggested) after the lesson? It's not about doing stupid human tricks, it's about skiiing and changing that students skiing, not how well they can perform a drill.

Wanna know why folks don't take higher level lessons? Too many drills, not enough free skiing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro 

 

Wanna know why folks don't take higher level lessons? Too many drills, not enough free skiing.

 Sorry to jump in but this is about on the money for me.  I'm not enthused by the "school" aspect of ski school at all but find a way of teaching me on the sly while taking me rad places and skiing cool lines and I'm all yours. Curiously the people I find most enthused about the prospect of drills are in the instructor system themselves where they seem to be a badge of honour or devious pleasure.   

For those pros that really want to improve the higher end lesson environment I'd think hard about how you incorporate the positive bits of "drills" into non-drill shaped fun or "just skiing".  There's no competition there from internet based lists. 

Saying "no" is easier than saying "yes."  Yes requires further action.  It requires a prescription for a solution.  

Law of increasing entropy implies that "no" will win in the end.  It requires less energy, just as Nolo says.  But is this the end?

A list of drills, tied loosely to a progression of stages from newbie to expert, maybe also tied to handling different terrain & conditions, maybe also to fat waisted skis vs narrow ones, with an explanation of what each drill might help teach and how that applies to free skiing in that stage and context, accompanied by ways to self-check for each drill, would not be a bad thing.

All of this would need constant reminders that YMMV.

3D's is something I've advocated here for years. Doesn't mean I think drills are fun. Ever. Necessary at times but only long enough to introduce a movement pattern. After that it's all about cementing that change with miles and miles of skiing. But that goes into personality types Nolo. I suspect you're OCD and I know I'm a bit  OCD but with some ADD mixed in just for fun. Can't stay in the power corner too long, it gets boring. Although if you ask Squatty, He will tell you I used to spend days obsessively working on some of his drills. I'd get it eventually but at no time would I call all of that work, fun. Rewarding but not fun. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolo 

I am just looking for a fun diversion in the summer time when I can't free ski. As I said, the idea came to me through circuit training, which is my latest obsession (oops, gave something away there). In fact, yesterday when I was doing a one-legged agility drill I had another thought: we should create some dryland exercises for people who struggle with one weak side in their skiing (for me it's the left side). Maybe if they are dry land exercises the pros won't be so negative... That's what I thought, anyway. It probably won't go anywhere either. 

You should change your screen name to Little Red Hen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgeib 


I think you're looking at two sides of the same coin here, Rusty.
For the do-it-yourselfers you are trying to get them to the point of:
I know enough to know I don't know enough.
For the instructors, it might be you need to recognize they don't know enough, yet.
Of course, that is over simplified. Certainly they "know" a lot. However, do they understand it? Have they mastered it and comprehend completely?
Is it necessary to train your instructors how to customize their exercises? Maybe they need permission vs instruction?
To be a bit on topic:
Can this effort solve everybody's every issue? No.
However, there are some great coaches posting here and I suspect that some seeking the information they are after will come to recognize they don't yet know enough, and then seek to learn more. Not sure if the "list" is leading to the Wiki structure Rusty describes or not; if it is, then if nothing else there would at least be a reference to point to as something common to discuss and/or a starting point for a DIYer to base questions from when seeking clarification.
I understand where many are coming from when they express a "list", bar discussion, forum, etc cannot take the place of a lesson with them in person - no doubt. However, I know personally that I have experienced some pretty insightful bar room discussions, online chats, forum postings, chair lift rides, commutes, etc. I do not think because it is not the personal lesson that it then equates the effort to having no, or lessor, value ….it is just different.
Painting an image in a reader's mind using only the written word is a challenge. Likely more worthwhile for the writer in many cases I suspect. Not for everyone, but I can certainly see where there can be benefit.

For the instructors, it might be you need to recognize they don't know enough, yet.

We are a mid size resort with over 300 pros on staff. There are plenty of staff that are learning the basics and are not ready for a discussion on customizing drills. You're right - they need the basics first. My guess is that 1/3 of the staff has enough experience but not enough exposure to the concept. There are at least 30 pros with over 3 years of teaching experience that I regularly work with. All of them are ready. Some of them I've already tried the concept on. I'm not happy with the results. It could very well be that the topic is not valuable enough to spend clinic time on either because it's obvious or pros are not ready. However, our profiles and skills clinics (randomly combining one of ten student profiles with one of ten skills profiles and proposing a lesson plan - one of the PSIA-E exam tasks) that were introduced last year was very successful. This is an opportunity for a practical application of drill customization, but it did not always go in that direction. When it did you could see light bulbs lighting up.

I see the same problem in my day job a lot. We focus so much on "what to do" vs "how to know what to do" that junior people become over reliant on senior people. When we get more "why" into the discussion we end up having to discuss less "what".

Is it necessary to train your instructors how to customize their exercises? 

No. Could some pros learn from participating in a discussion on the topic? I think so, but I'm not sure. That's why I'm asking about it here and in the classroom forum. I know that I've learned from my discussions with D teamers, but I've usually had to ask them to get the discussion going. I've noticed that Shawn Smith (ex PSIA Demo Team coach) tends to talk about this topic more in his Masters group at Pro Jam.

For the instructors, it might be you need to recognize they don't know enough, yet. So True.

Assessing a coach's performance is a tricky issue unless you actually audit each coach during the season. We do that, and when combined with the metrics (from interviews with their customers), we get a pretty good picture of where they are when it comes to the core concepts and understanding of technical knowledge. We share that with each coach during their end of season review. That makes fall training so much easier since each coach knows their strengths and weaknesses. It's our belief that through open and honest communications / coaching we can best serve our staff and ultimately our customers.

I know some here will say that is asking them to drink our KOOL AID but expecting them to provide the level of service our customers expect, requires us to walk the walk prior to asking them to do the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRusty 

I see the same problem in my day job a lot. We focus so much on "what to do" vs "how to know what to do" that junior people become over reliant on senior people. When we get more "why" into the discussion we end up having to discuss less "what".

 

Great post.

I totally agree, and its why I am so adamant about the "whys" behind skiing.  When we understand the why...the what is obvious.  Hence when training instructors I (the CSIA) focuses on developing an understanding of skiing.  This enables them to understand "why" something is happening, or "why" something needs to happen etc...armed with that, the "what" is pretty obvious.