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Everest -Increasing climbers = Increasing danger - Page 2

post #31 of 51

the most notorious story, and an event that made it clear you could pay your way to the top, was of the sherpa who was supposed to go ahead and set fixed ropes for the following members, but  abandoned his work responsibility and instead short-roped a wealthy female client to the summit. Now short-roping clients who are not fit enough to make it happens more and more, as I understand, being no more than an avid reader of expedition books.

post #32 of 51

Check out the first episode of "Satisfaction"  (Showtime Australia) for a comical look at how some climbers prepare for Everest.  Around the 9 minute mark- for those easily offended, the only clothes the guy is wearing are socks because of a previous frostbite problem.  http://movies.netflix.com/WiPlayer?movieid=70125005&trkid=8379862&t=Satisfaction%3A+Ssn+1%3A+Running+Girl

post #33 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/aug/19/barbaramcmahon

 

They found his remains in the snow halfway up Nanga Parbat, the ninth tallest mountain in the world. The clothes were still on him, including a wind jacket and shoes that identified the victim, apparently beyond doubt. Günther Messner, went missing 35 years ago, and since then his brother, the mountaineer Reinhold Messner, has lived with accusations that he abandoned him to die.

Now the discovery of the remains appears to have solved one of the great mountaineering mysteries, providing support for Reinhold's longstanding account of what happened to his 23-year-old younger sibling.

The position of the remains tallies with Messner's claim that he did not leave Günther on the slope, but that he was killed when he was swept away by an avalanche.

According to news reports in Italy and Austria yesterday, the remains were spotted by climbers some weeks ago but left in place until 60-year-old Messner could fly out from his castle home in Italy and see them for himself.

He reached the remote site in western Pakistan on Wednesday and identified articles of clothing belonging to his brother. Having been buried in snow and ice for 35 years, any human parts will have to be positively identified using DNA tests, but members of the Messner family are sure the find has put the matter to rest.

Hubert Messner, another brother, who works as a paediatrician in Bolzano, Italy, said: "This is a huge relief for us. The family hasn't been able to talk directly to Reinhold because he is out there in Pakistan and it has not been possible to talk on the satellite phone."

The Messner family said they hoped it would be possible to return Günther's remains to his home town of Funes, in Italy, to be buried.

Reinhold's career - he was the first man to climb Everest solo in 1980 without the aid of oxygen and the first man to climb the world's 14 tallest peaks without oxygen - has always been overshadowed by claims that he sacrificed the life of his brother for his own glory.

The Messner brothers set out in 1970 to conquer Nanga Parbat, a forbidding peak 27,000 ft (8,125 metres) above sea level in the Karakoram chain at the western end of the Himalayas. It is also known as the Mountain of Destiny because of the dozens of climbers who have died while attempting to scale it; both brothers nevertheless reached the summit. Both were on the brink of exhaustion, had run out of food and water, and Günther was hallucinating from altitude sickness.

It was at this point the controversy began. Reinhold, who lost seven toes and several fingertips to frostbite during the climb, said the two were retreating down the western Diamar face of the mountain when his brother disappeared. He said he had gone on ahead and Günther, weak and lagging behind, had almost certainly been swept away by a huge wall of snow.

Two other climbers - Max von Kienlin and Hans Saler - who took part in the ascent but did not reach the summit claimed otherwise. They published books in Germany claiming that Messner had sent his brother down the mountain's highly dangerous Rupal flank, even though the brothers had nearly died on their way up it.

Messner, they said, callously left his ailing brother to make his own way down while he chose to descend the different, unknown route on the western Diamar face because he would be the first climber to achieve such a descent. "In effect," they wrote, "Messner sacrificed his brother to his own ambition."

The allegations have dogged Messner ever since, although he launched legal action against the two climbers and their publishers and has always strongly denied any wrongdoing. He said the fact that he had an affair and later married Von Kienlin's wife, Ursula, in 1971, and that he had become famous and wealthy, had deepened both men's resentment of him. The marriage did not last and the two climbers have in turn claimed they were not motivated by jealously or resentment but only wanted to reveal what they saw as the truth.

Messner returned to Nanga Parbat a year after his brother's death to search for the body but found no trace. He returned again in 2000 to make a documentary about the trip and also wrote a book in which he described the anguish he has felt ever since. The position where the remains have been found, at 4,400 metres on the western Diamar face and not the Rupal face, is likely to finally remove any suspicions about Messner's behaviour that day.

I missed this post because I was posting at the same time.  Glad I went back to read it. 

post #34 of 51

I find the whole Tourist on Everest thing distasteful. My guess is that these people pay $100k or more per person and the type of tourist that can afford this is likely an A type personality that is accustomed to telling people, who they are paying, what to do. Or they don't respect or listen to the advice that they have paid for.

 

200 people waiting to summit sounds stupid to me. Everest and places like it are for real mountain climbers, not tourists with a bucket list who with their tons of money cheapen the place and the experience.

post #35 of 51

and everyone who is fixated on a peak forgets that the summit is only halfway.
 

post #36 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanoT View Post

Everest and places like it are for real mountain climbers, not tourists with a bucket list who with their tons of money cheapen the place and the experience.

Why is Everest for real mountain climbers? There is almost no climbing on the entire route. Almost nobody can do it without supplemental oxygen, and once you add the O2 it is about the clock. Mess with the clock and people die. Every single person who goes knows this.

That you pay to play is a good thing, unless of course you are gifted in ability to summit on your own. Being a Desk Jockey kills millions more than Everest, and the greed factor is far more in play.
post #37 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NayBreak View Post


Why is Everest for real mountain climbers? There is almost no climbing on the entire route. Almost nobody can do it without supplemental oxygen, and once you add the O2 it is about the clock. Mess with the clock and people die. Every single person who goes knows this.
That you pay to play is a good thing, unless of course you are gifted in ability to summit on your own. Being a Desk Jockey kills millions more than Everest, and the greed factor is far more in play.

The key difference is that, with these numbers of people on Everest, you're not just putting your own life at risk if you lose it, but you're putting others at risk too. 

post #38 of 51

Stories reported this morning said another 120 people started up last night...

post #39 of 51
Thread Starter 

I'm a little ignorant about that part of the world and how things are regulated, or not, so forgive this question(suggestion) if its dumb.......

What if people making the climb were required to file for a permit, or intent of path?   Could they limit the amount of people who can climb at one time? WOULD they limit the amount of peole who can climb at one time?

post #40 of 51

geeze..... unfortunately that will most likely mean a couple more popcycles....

post #41 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post

I'm a little ignorant about that part of the world and how things are regulated, or not, so forgive this question(suggestion) if its dumb.......

What if people making the climb were required to file for a permit, or intent of path?   Could they limit the amount of people who can climb at one time? WOULD they limit the amount of peole who can climb at one time?

 

http://outdoors.whatitcosts.com/mt-everest.htm

 

"Climbing permits issued in China cost around $4,000 and include many support services to Advanced Base Camp. Permits issued in Nepal cost $10,000 and don’t include services at all. However, the northern routes are longer, more dangerous, and much more technical than the southern routes. Your likelihood of summiting from the north is lower and your likelihood of dying on a northern route is higher."

 

They apparently don't limit the number of permits.  This is an interesting article regarding the crowding on Everest.

 

 http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/05/23/mt-everest-suffers-from-too-many-climbers-and-deteriorating-conditions.html

 

Doesn't sound like that much fun.

post #42 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldMember View Post

 

http://outdoors.whatitcosts.com/mt-everest.htm

 

"Climbing permits issued in China cost around $4,000 and include many support services to Advanced Base Camp. Permits issued in Nepal cost $10,000 and don’t include services at all. However, the northern routes are longer, more dangerous, and much more technical than the southern routes. Your likelihood of summiting from the north is lower and your likelihood of dying on a northern route is higher."

 

I don't know if they limit the number of permits but, if so, it's a fairly high number.  

Since I've never looked into this, I have more questions than answers.  

Would the $$ for permits be for a group or an individual?   If for a Guide and his group, the # could be crazy depending on the guide's discretion 

 

Edit: reading further in the link you provided.

 

I see some of the costs are per group and some are per person.

As seen here in a snip from the link:

 

Quote:
  • Climbing permits and fees – prorated per person, $25,000 for 1 person;$56,000 for 4 people; $70,000 for 7 people, etc.
  • Climbing permits and fees – prorated per person, $25,000 for 1 person;$56,000 for 4 people; $70,000 for 7 people, etc.

 

 

 

 I continue to be amazed at the "spirit of adventure" some of these folks have. 

 

 

 

Quote:

Going It Alone

Cost To Climb Mount Everest

In 2006, a British climber paid a budget, Kathmandu-based trekking company $7,490 to arrange for a climbing permit, food, and minimal services to Base Camp on the north, Tibetan side of the mountain. He climbed alone, without the aid of a Sherpa or guide, and bought only two bottles of oxygen rather than the usual five. He also chose not to rent an emergency radio. No one knows exactly what happened during his climb, but his almost lifeless body was found by a succession of descending climbers, who tried but were unable to revive or rescue him. Tragically, his death on the Northeast Ridge was only one of eleven deaths on Mount Everest in 2006, making it the second most deadly spring season on record.

 

post #43 of 51

I believe the permit cost is per individual.  It's unlikely that the Chinese will limit the number of permits as it's a fairly large economic boost for the area; not just the permit revenue but all the support services and travel costs to each climber.  If you figure that each climber is going to spend at least half of their total outlay in the local area, that's $35k-$50k times 700, or $24-$35 million total for a relatively short period of time.  

post #44 of 51

The drive and training and money and time it takes to get to Everest forces the brain into a single thought of getting to the top. When it comes time to turn back many people are so addled by lack of oxygen that the goal overwelms self preservation. The guide for Shira Shah-Korfine, the Canadian-Nepalese women who summited and died on the way down claims ot have had this exact conversation about tuning back. It can be found in this article from the Globe and Mail:

"

They had been climbing all night and there were delays ahead before they had even reached the Hillary Step, a tricky rock face where other climbers were bottlenecked.

Ms. Shah-Klorfine’s outfitter, Ganesh Thakuri, wanted her to turn around.

“Please sister, don’t push yourself. If you feel weak, please go back. You can come next year, try to climb next year. Don’t push yourself, it might kill you,” Mr. Thakuri said.

“I really want to go. I really want to reach the top,” she replied.

By the end of the day, the 33-year-old Canadian woman was one of four who died on Everest Saturday, worn out by the cold, the lack of oxygen and the long climb."

 

Here is more from the Globe and Mail article:

"

Mr. Thakuri, managing director of Utmost Adventure Trekking Pvt. Ltd., said Ms. Shah-Klorfine was part of a group that his firm and another outfitter, Happy Feet Mountaineering, had guided to Camp IV, the final stop at 7,800 metres, on a rocky, windy area littered with abandoned gear and oxygen tanks.

After leaving Camp IV at 11 p.m., they reached The Balcony in the morning but faced delays of two hours because of the high volume of climbers on the route ahead.

Mr. Thakuri said it was impossible to force Ms. Shah-Klorfine to abandon the climb.

“She was telling me: ‘I spent a lot of money to come over here. It’s my dream,’ ” he said.

“I really pushed her hard [to stop] but it didn’t work. We couldn’t carry her down ourselves and come down … There is no way that we can carry her and walk down. It is too high. It’s too hard.”

With two guides, Temba Sherpa and Dawa Dendi Sherpa, she got to the summit between 2:15 and 2:30 p.m. However, descending in the evening, she was exhausted and had run out of oxygen bottles.

“It was very slow walking. She could not walk. The two sherpas bring her down,” Mr. Thakuri said.

“It became very, very late. Around 10:30 p.m. she lost everything. She was dead and the sherpas left her there and came down.”

He said the sherpas returned the next morning and took pictures with her camera to document her death, then moved her body to get it out of the way."

 

Obiously most people turn around. But every year there are those who do not and die on the way down. At this point it seems there are too many people trying to get to the top.

post #45 of 51

If anyone is planning to climb Everest and has any doubts at all regarding the competency of their guide, contact Dave Hahn.  He is a patroller at my home mountain.  Dave is a professional mountain guide who gives lectures regularly.  In May of 2011 he reached the summit of Mt. Everest for the 13th time (the most for any non-Sherpa climber).  If you are looking for an authority on the subject, Dave is your man.

post #46 of 51

Re the previous discussion of helicopter use around Everest, it appears that someone has actually landed a chopper on top of the mountain. I find this incredible but here is the link to the article;http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0509/whats_new/helicopter_everest.html

post #47 of 51
Thread Starter 

This is one of my friends  on Facebook from last week

37018_391179570918045_100000780177476_1055866_606730661_n.jpg

(its not a surprise that my friend in common is Doug Stoup)

post #48 of 51
Thread Starter 

This report from Snowbrains lays out new regulations for climbing Everest. 

IMO this should have been done a long time ago. 

http://snowbrains.com/new-everest-regulations-to-improve-mountain-safety/

post #49 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post
 

This report from Snowbrains lays out new regulations for climbing Everest. 

IMO this should have been done a long time ago. 

http://snowbrains.com/new-everest-regulations-to-improve-mountain-safety/


Those pictures of the crowding are frightening.

post #50 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by x10003q View Post
 


Those pictures of the crowding are frightening.


Well the reality is that although the snow fields and altitude present very real dangers the actual climbing on Everest is not really all that technical. That's why so many inexperienced climbers have been able to summit. Being in good shape and getting lucky with the weather is all you need with a good guide. Kind of like Aconcagua or Kilamanjaro, despite them being the tallest peaks on their continents they are really just long strenuous hikes.

 

The many tragedies have largely been the result of clients putting immense pressure on the guides to ensure a summit. Hopefully limiting climbs to those with experience will remove a lot of that pressure as more experienced climbers should understand that without cooperative weather you can't force the summit. 

post #51 of 51

The problem with the new regs will be determining who is experienced and what being experienced constitutes.

 

The kind a people that have $65k to spend on summit-ting Everest are often type A personalities who will figure out how to fast track (buy) experience.

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