EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › General Skiing Discussion › Family sues over Winter Park avy death
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Family sues over Winter Park avy death

post #1 of 83
Thread Starter 

I guess I can't say I'm surprised.... I can say I disagree vehemently with the part I bolded. I hope and pray they are not successful, because in-bounds skiing will get very boring if they are. Might already.

 

 

http://business-news.thestreet.com/denver-post/story/family-sues-intrawest-over-skiers-death-winter-park-avalanche/1

Family Sues Intrawest Over Skier's Death in Winter Park Avalanche

The wife of a skier killed in a January avalanche inside the Winter Park ski area has filed a wrongful death suit targeting the Denver-owned ski area's operator, Intrawest.

"It is up to the people who are running the ski area to either rope off the area or make sure it's safe," said attorney Michael Burg, whose Burg Simpson firm is representing Norris' widow, Salyndra Fleury. "A family goes up skiing and they have no idea there is a potential to be killed by an avalanche. That's ridiculous. This is gross negligence."

Intrawest declined to comment.

Avalanche danger was high on Sunday, Jan. 22. The Colorado Avalanche Information Center that morning cited high winds and heavy snow when issuing an avalanche forecast warning of "widespread dangerous avalanche conditions.""Triggering avalanches remotely and from low angle or even flat terrain is likely," read the Jan. 22 forecast. "Be very wary near or below any avalanche terrain, and keep in mind that even small slides can bury and kill you."

It's unlikely 28-year-old Norris, father of a 3-year-old and 4-month-old, checked in on the forecast that morning before heading up to Mary Jane with his father-in-law. Even if he did, the forecast urged skiers to "enjoy the powder in the safety of the ski area."

Ski patrollers had ski cut the densely timbered slopes inside Trestle Trees, an expert area that had yet to see much traffic in the slow-to-start season. A picture in the subsequent CAIC avalanche report showed patroller's avalanche-mitigating tracks criss-crossing the slope above Norris tracks.

The report surmised that Norris had traversed beneath the slope on low-angle terrain beneath a rock outcrop and triggered a 40-foot wide slide that ran a mere 30 vertical feet. It was a very small slide. But it was enough to bury Norris. After his father-in-law reported him missing, patrollers found him at sunset, buried facing downhill in three feet of snow, with only his gloved hand visible above the debris.

The lawsuit argues that patrollers "knew or should have known" the Trestle Trees area "was not safe for skiers under the existing conditions and under the forecasts and warnings," arguing that Intrawest "had a duty to close those areas within its boundary which it knew or should have known posed an avalanche hazard to skiers."

Norris was not the only person to die in an inbounds avalanche that day. Taft Conlin, a 13-year-old expert skier from Eagle was killed while skiing in a closed section of Vail Mountain. Two other skiers were caught in the slide, but Conlin, a beloved local, suffered chest injuries as he was thrown through the steep trees. Norris and Conlin's deaths marked the second and third inbounds avalanche fatalities in Colorado since 2005.

Burg said his firm has "had discussions" but has not been retained by the Conlin family.

Colorado's industry standard Ski Safety Act limits a resort's liability in lawsuits filed by family of those killed to $250,000. That cap has been tested many times since the legislation was enacted in 1979, but no jury or court ever has awarded injured skiers or bereaved families more than $250,000. (In fact, Burg Simpson attorney James Heckbert, who is representing Norris' family, unsuccessfully challenged the act's liability cap before the Colorado Supreme Court in 2007 in a case that involved an employee-driven snowmobile that collided with a ski racer, killing 13-year-old Ashley Stamp in 2006 on Vail Mountain.)

"We intend to make this a test case. We recognize it's an uphill battle," Burg said. "It's like getting on a roller coaster that flies off the track and the operator says they are not responsible. That's crazy."

Burg said his firm is in discussions with victims of the North Fork Fire, a state-managed prescribed burn that raged beyond control in late March, torching 23 homes across 4,000 acres and killing three people. State law caps settlement for losses at $600,000 per incident but lawmakers, following the March wildfire recently approved legislation that removes state immunity from lawsuits involving prescribed burns.

"Why should the government or a ski area not have the same responsibilities as individuals? Everyone — including the government — is telling us we all need to be held responsible and accountable for our actions. By giving immunity, all we do is encourage the government and ski areas to be grossly negligent."

Burg said if the lawsuit against Intrawest fails, he intends to push for either a petition or legislation that challenges the Ski Safety Act's limitation of liability.

 

 

 
post #2 of 83

Lame.

 

Ski at your own risk!

 

RIP

post #3 of 83

This is kind of like launching your boat at a state park to go fishing then suing them when a storm capsizes your boat.  This is kind of like going to a baseball game and suing them because your kid gets killed by a foul ball or home run hitting them in the stands.  Not to mention the back of the lift tickets. 

 

Note to MY family.  If this ever happens to me, don't sue the resort.  Thank them,  because I got to die doing something I love.

post #4 of 83

"We intend to make this a test case. We recognize it's an uphill battle," Burg said. "It's like getting on a roller coaster that flies off the track and the operator says they are not responsible. That's crazy."

This seems like an inherently flawed argument to me. Granted, both skiing and riding roller coasters are recreational activities (for most of us), but comparing skiing in a natural area that is patrolled by a corporation's employees to riding a machine engineered, built, and maintained by man seems illogical. I wouldn't imagine the plaintiffs will have much luck . . . especially in getting above the $250,000 cap. It'll be interesting to see how it unfolds.

post #5 of 83

Thank goodness for Colorado's Ski Safety Act:

http://www.dora.state.co.us/tramway/SkiSafetyAct.pdf

"33-44-112. Limitation on actions for injury resulting from inherent dangers and risks of skiing.
Notwithstanding any judicial decision or any other law or statute to the contrary, including but not limited to sections 13-21-111 and 13-21-111.7, C.R.S., no skier may make any claim against or recover from any ski area operator for injury resulting from any of the inherent dangers and risks of skiing."

 

And what's required to be printed on their lift tickets:

"WARNING - Under Colorado law, a skier assumes the risk of any injury to person or property resulting from any of the inherent dangers and risks of skiing and may not recover from any ski area operator for any injury resulting from any of the inherent dangers and risks of skiing, including: Changing weather conditions; existing and changing snow conditions; bare spots; rocks; stumps; trees; collisions with natural objects, man-made objects, or other skiers; variations in terrain; and the failure of skiers to ski within their own abilities."

 

I hope that covers the resort.

post #6 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSloan View Post

...

This seems like an inherently flawed argument to me...

There's a reason so many famous plaintiff's attorneys are now convicted felons, including, potentially, a notable presidential candidate depending on which way his jury goes.  They don't care whether the argument is flawed, very similar to a stickup kid not caring about the liquor store owner's safety and his family.  Making outrageous, baseless arguments that hurt everyone but potentially put some money in the attorney's pocket is the business.

 

Until Colorado and other ski states start aggressively disbarring or even jailing attorneys for bringing this type of ch*t, it'll keep on happening. 

post #7 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinFromSA View Post

Thank goodness for Colorado's Ski Safety Act:

http://www.dora.state.co.us/tramway/SkiSafetyAct.pdf

"33-44-112. Limitation on actions for injury resulting from inherent dangers and risks of skiing.
Notwithstanding any judicial decision or any other law or statute to the contrary, including but not limited to sections 13-21-111 and 13-21-111.7, C.R.S., no skier may make any claim against or recover from any ski area operator for injury resulting from any of the inherent dangers and risks of skiing."

 

And what's required to be printed on their lift tickets:

"WARNING - Under Colorado law, a skier assumes the risk of any injury to person or property resulting from any of the inherent dangers and risks of skiing and may not recover from any ski area operator for any injury resulting from any of the inherent dangers and risks of skiing, including: Changing weather conditions; existing and changing snow conditions; bare spots; rocks; stumps; trees; collisions with natural objects, man-made objects, or other skiers; variations in terrain; and the failure of skiers to ski within their own abilities."

 

I hope that covers the resort.

 

AFAIK, that stuff is worth about as much as the paper it's printed on, etc etc ... but I guess you still have to define the inherent dangers and risks of skiing. They are saying that inbounds skiing doesn't carry an inherent risk of avalanche, it seems. Which is, in effect, somewhat true. But not totally.  

 

It was such a freak accident. I feel terrible for the family, as I would for anyone who died in an accident. But ... an accident

 

What ever happened with the suit in Jackson Hole, from a couple of years ago? Guy died in Toilet Bowl? Has that come to trial? I guess I can look myself...

post #8 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

This is kind of like launching your boat at a state park to go fishing then suing them when a storm capsizes your boat.  This is kind of like going to a baseball game and suing them because your kid gets killed by a foul ball or home run hitting them in the stands.  Not to mention the back of the lift tickets. 

 

Note to MY family.  If this ever happens to me, don't sue the resort.  Thank them,  because I got to die doing something I love.

 

icon14.gif Well said. But that family want to find someone to blame. That's why they sue whoever they think is responsible.  

post #9 of 83

Wow!  The fact that patrol had tested the slope in advance of the slide will be a pivotal point, I'm guessing.  Rollercoasters are squarely within the design/operation/maintenance scope of the owner/operator, so I agree with your bold opinion.

 

I'd be interested in following the case if there's any way to keep tabs from here. 

post #10 of 83

its a sad situation all around for sure. Bottom line is that if anyone could be 100% certain that a slope is safe, that would be a good thing but no one can; that's why its important to understand avi risks and how to read and understand terrain.  SKiing slopes above 25* are in the danger zone and skiing with beacons, shovels and probes and arguably air bags are warranted.  inbounds or not. 

post #11 of 83

If a case like this gets to a jury that wasn't smart enough to get out of jury duty, the outcome is inherently unpredictable regardless of the statute or the gross negligence claim.  I suspect the plaintiff's attorney is hoping for a fast settlement.  

 

I don't remember the details, but in Utah there is a similar statute, and a lawsuit claiming gross negligence on the part of the ski resort was held for the plaintiff.  IIRC, that case had some things done by employees that led to the accident that resulted in the litigation.

 

As an armchair quarterback, it seems to me that if ski patrol checked the area, then that is NOT gross negligence.  Conditions change.  But hey - I'm not an attorney; but I am smart enough to get out of jury duty.

post #12 of 83
post #13 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy View Post

Skiing trees alone after a storm?

 

http://www.skyhidailynews.com/article/20120123/NEWS/120129988/1103

 

 

Hell yes, all the time!  Even if you have a partner, it's no guarantee of safety?

post #14 of 83

Safety no, but a partner might have been able to dig him out.

 

I realize that trees are considered somewhat sheltered from avy risk but this early season snowpack was weird, would you have skied it? I probably wouldn't have but i am a jong.

 

Was the terrain marked closed?

 

I couldn't figure out why the father in law left him to report him missing, because he wasn't with him.

post #15 of 83
Those limitation of liability caps are pretty much absolute. It is a statute. Intrawest's worst day in court is $250K, losing on the basis of gross negligence with a jury award.

Their worst day in the legislature is a repeal of the cap. This along with the precedence of calling an avalanche gross negligence can create some incentive for settlement, hence the ambulance chasing here.

$250K is nowhere near enough money on the table to go to trial for wrongful death, and this law firm clearly has a history of pushing cases against immunity statutes. There are a lot of skiing injuries, and award precedence under a $250K cap can still get expensive (or profitable from the other side), all of which is why this case never goes to court.
post #16 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Sumner View Post

icon14.gif  Well said. But that family want to find someone to blame. That's why they sue whoever they think is responsible.  

It would be my guess the law firm talked the family into it. Guess who'll get most of the quarter million...
post #17 of 83

Oh NO!!!  I hit a patch of ice and busted my tail bone.  I saw the patrol skiing on the same trail so I assumed it was safe.  The ski area should have closed it down and groomed it to pure corduroy so nobody gets hurt skiing.  Can I sue them for millions???th_dunno-1[1].gif

post #18 of 83

Playing devil's advocate, it's possible the ski patrol was negligent, and you might have to file suit and go through discovery to actually get enough information to tell.

 

But most likely this lawyer's a total douche and hoping for a settlement.  icon13.gif

 

(Also, looking at the text of the "Ski Safety Act" itself, it seems like the limitation for injury claims is $1M, but maybe a lawsuit filed by next of kin falls under the $250K limit for a 'derivative claim'.  Section 33-44-113.  IANAL. YMMV.)

post #19 of 83

IMO ski cutting a slope by a ski patroller in order to trigger a small avalanche is on the way out and will be replaced by the use of charges which is a lot safer for the patroller. What i am less sure of is which method is best at producing the desired results, i.e. triggering a small slide that stabilizes the slope. If the lawyers can show that the use of charges is more effective than the ski cutting that was used, then that may be the basis of negligence or possibly gross negligence.

post #20 of 83

I was in a construction porta potty and there was no toilet paper,  I AM SUING...   

post #21 of 83

To some degree in-bounds avalanches shouldn't happen, especially on non-expert terrain.  Imagine if avalanches just came out of nowhere and swallowed up the magic carpets and pony tow lifts.

I can't read through the story well enough to know if the skier was on on expert terrain, or on n00b terrain that was just was unluckily situated below expert terrain.

 

Still, let them have their day in court...might not be perfect, but there's no better way to get it all aired out if the resort followed industry best practices or not.

 

As far as the roller coaster analogy, i'd agree a more apt analogy would be a 10.0 earthquake in a non-earthquake area pulling the track apart and then the coaster flew off.

post #22 of 83
Thread Starter 

Let me see if I can help a little ... Trestle is a black run at Mary Jane that has some funky fall lines and terrain traps (even more so in low snow, of course). There are some rock outcroppings that run through the area that make it really fun, but they are very steep cliffs, really. At the edge of the run, you can head into some open trees (lots of those at MJ now thanks to beetle kill glading). CAIC report shows that he triggered the slide from below, as he was traversing into the trees under this rock band. 

 

Avalanche was 40 ft wide and ran 30 ft vertical. That's tiny. Basically, the snow slid off the rock and landed on him. Bad timing. Really bad timing. I just can't see how patrol (and/or the resort)  can be responsible for something like this. You can't rope off the side of all the runs. 

 

 

trestletrees.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by raytseng View Post

To some degree in-bounds avalanches shouldn't happen, especially on non-expert terrain.  Imagine if avalanches just came out of nowhere and swallowed up the magic carpets and pony tow lifts.

I can't read through the story well enough to know if the skier was on on expert terrain, or on n00b terrain that was just was unluckily situated below expert terrain.

 

Still, let them have their day in court...might not be perfect, but there's no better way to get it all aired out if the resort followed industry best practices or not.

 

As far as the roller coaster analogy, i'd agree a more apt analogy would be a 10.0 earthquake in a non-earthquake area pulling the track apart and then the coaster flew off.

post #23 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post
You can't rope off the side of all the runs. 

 

Aye - but they should rope off the unsafe runs.

post #24 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiatansky View Post

 

Aye - but they should rope off the unsafe runs.

I'll put it in simple terms,  if this goes to court and the ski industry doesn't win, we can  ALL say goodbye to half the terrain,,, the resorts will be forced to rope everything off, close all lifts when ave danger is high,,,, It will kill the industry.    Word,  more people died on the way home from skiing in car accidents then skiing...     Perhaps people should be able to sue the state for improper speed limits?  Improper plowing or sanding???      

post #25 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post

I'll put it in simple terms,  if this goes to court and the ski industry doesn't win, we can  ALL say goodbye to half the terrain,,, the resorts will be forced to rope everything off, close all lifts when ave danger is high,,,, It will kill the industry.    Word,  more people died on the way home from skiing in car accidents then skiing...     Perhaps people should be able to sue the state for improper speed limits?  Improper plowing or sanding???      

 

They should be able to sue all they want;  but intelligence and the court system should plays out and the claimants should be sent packing if they are found without cause, nd lawyers bringing the crap should be censured, and maybe further actions after too many strikes.

post #26 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by raytseng View Post

 

They should be able to sue all they want;  but intelligence and the court system should plays out and the claimants should be sent packing if they are found without cause, nd lawyers bringing the crap should be censured, and maybe further actions after too many strikes.

no they shouldn't

 

 

 

 

"33-44-112. Limitation on actions for injury resulting from inherent dangers and risks of skiing.
Notwithstanding any judicial decision or any other law or statute to the contrary, including but not limited to sections 13-21-111 and 13-21-111.7, C.R.S., no skier may make any claim against or recover from any ski area operator for injury resulting from any of the inherent dangers and risks of skiing."

 

And

"WARNING - Under Colorado law, a skier assumes the risk of any injury to person or property resulting from any of the inherent dangers and risks of skiing and may not recover from any ski area operator for any injury resulting from any of the inherent dangers and risks of skiing, including: Changing weather conditions; existing and changing snow conditions; bare spots; rocks; stumps; trees; collisions with natural objects, man-made objects, or other skiers; variations in terrain; and the failure of skiers to ski within their own abilities."

post #27 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post

I'll put it in simple terms,  if this goes to court and the ski industry doesn't win, we can  ALL say goodbye to half the terrain,,, the resorts will be forced to rope everything off, close all lifts when ave danger is high,,,, It will kill the industry.    Word,  more people died on the way home from skiing in car accidents then skiing...     Perhaps people should be able to sue the state for improper speed limits?  Improper plowing or sanding???      


Squaw closed an area called rooftop after an accident and a lawsuit.

post #28 of 83

As Segbrown stated in the OP, nobody should be surprised, excited, or upset that an law firm files a negligence suit. OK, maybe PO'd at how our legal system thrives on financial liability cases. If a lift system broke while you were riding it and you were injured, would you feel the same way about liability laws?  State law and legal precedence's are a very formidable legal barrier to overcome. I doubt very much that states, such as CO and VT, are going to modify liability law to favor the plaintiff, given the financial benefit the ski industry brings to the economy. Personally, I'd love to see legislation limiting the $$$ that flow to law firms via negligence claims, but, doubt that will ever happen.

 

During the Gathering this year, I experienced the deepest powder of my ski life and learned to respect avalanche risk as never before. I passed up skiing steep powder chutes that others jumped into, and, personal risk management entered into those decisions. Tahoe had a horrible winter for snow and when we first arrived rocks were visible all over steep trails, and, no way several inches of snow were going to make me risk avalanche or what lay just under the new blanket. Riding chairs and looking at skiers coming down slopes with major rocks only a day or so ago, I was amazed that more rock strikes did not occur. Mini-avalanches could be seen regularly as skiers caused small slides to start.

 

We go into harms way on skis, use your brains well.

post #29 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiatansky View Post

Aye - but they should rope off the unsafe runs.

What qualifies as 'unsafe'? 1% risk of avalanche that day? .1%? 0.001%?

It's almost never 0. There have been cases where slides have happened in areas that have never slid before, or that spilled over in some unexpected way onto open terrain further down the mountain. It's impossible to predict every crazy one-in-a-million thing that could happen, even following best practices for avalanche control and prediction.

To some extent, unstable snow conditions are an inherent risk of skiing, even 'inbounds'.
post #30 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias99 View Post


What qualifies as 'unsafe'? 1% risk of avalanche that day? .1%? 0.001%?
It's almost never 0. There have been cases where slides have happened in areas that have never slid before, or that spilled over in some unexpected way onto open terrain further down the mountain. It's impossible to predict every crazy one-in-a-million thing that could happen, even following best practices for avalanche control and prediction.
To some extent, unstable snow conditions are an inherent risk of skiing, even 'inbounds'.

 

It's 0 right now. :-)

 

But I agree with this. I think the JH avalanche is maybe a little more of a question, even though from what I know I would still tend to side with the resort (the fact that the victim was wearing a beacon that day pretty much shows to me that he knew he was taking a little more risk).  But the MJ one seems to me to be just super bad luck. 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Skiing Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › General Skiing Discussion › Family sues over Winter Park avy death