the folly of 'fall'

I am not an instructor and don't really care if my edge engagement is "late," but the secret to skiing the steeps for me was to learn to submit to the "fall."  Once you overcome the fear of getting a little ahead of your skis and allowing them to catch up while gravity does all the work it results in less physical effort, so the steeper it is the easier it is to turn.  Steep skiing can actully be the most physically relaxing when done right.  As I tell my friends who struggle on the steeps, "just lead with your face and hope the rest comes around."  A gross simplification of instructor speak, but it seems to work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mudfoot 

I am not an instructor and don't really care if my edge engagement is "late," but the secret to skiing the steeps for me was to learn to submit to the "fall."  Once you overcome the fear of getting a little ahead of your skis and allowing them to catch up while gravity does all the work it results in less physical effort, so the steeper it is the easier it is to turn.  

Interesting....

If engagement is late and you try to get your head and upper body ahead of your skis and you aren't engaged what do you suppose happens ?

Late engagement to me means waiting until you are back almost perpendicular to the fall line, which is where you want to start edging, but between turns it is falling into the next one.

Semantics are alway tricky, especially when it comes to describing how it feels to release the body towards the new turn. Elsewhere I suggested hucking the body like a sack of potatoes is a corrective move that accelerates the body after it has stalled out momentarily. To take that idea a bit further, imagine conserving momentum instead of scrubbing it off. Thus eliminating the need for a huck. The release amounts to reducing, or in some cases completely eliminating the lateral force causing the body to turn across the hill (returning it to straight line motion). From that perspective it certainly could feel like falling, even though it's a controlled fall. Can you engage the edges early as this occurs? Certainly.  Although the float phase doesn't require it. The trick is to aim both at the start of the next control phase, where we need to be lined up to strongly shape the new turn. Having the edges engaged by that point helps with balance but the actual location of that strong shaping phase dictates how early we need to be set up. Remembering location is a variable and depends on the intended path and turn shape is the key here. No one transition and re-engagement can be offered as an absolute for every turn..

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatoldman 

One morning in March while changing into my uniform someone in the locker room commented on how hard it could be to get students to "fall" from one turn into the next. I commented that in my skiing I never fall into a turn, that falling into a turn is way to slow and passive to support the type of skiing I enjoy, I don't have the time to wait for my body to fall into the next turn. One of the others suggested that one of this seasons buzz words from on high 'topple' was a better word. Topple,shmopple, that's just another word for fall.

 

One of the instructors brought up the old concept that you fall into the turn and catch yourself. I pointed out that this idea leads to late edge engagement after the ski passes through the fall line because it is physically impossible to "catch' yourself on edges that are engaged above the fall line. Now, one of the most common reasons for failure in the level 3 exams is inability to consistently engage the edges before that fall line yet here we are perpetuating a concept that trains a late edge engagement.

 

Personally, I am always striving to propel myself where I want to go and find that 'falling' is seldom involved in getting there.

 

fom

Semantics, yes.. but I consider toppling different that falling. Falling would be an "uncontrolled" move or too fast of a move of the COM across the skis. While this does "engage" the edges of the skis early and above the fall line, Once you are that committed to the inside of the next turn, your options are limited. Either ride the engaged edge  (park and ride), Hang on and hope they come back, throw them out to a higher edge angle so you can brake or Fall to the inside which puts you in a weaker position.

The toppling that seems to be getting so much buzz is if you balance something and it is just barely balanced it will slowly topple over. At this split second, your options are opened way up. It would happen at the finish of a turn to the end of a transition between turns. If you release the ski edges at the end of the turn, (skis go flat) and you are in a good strong position over your feet (balanced, hips and knees opened) and stopped all movement right there, there would be almost no force pulling you down the hill or up the hill, just unweighted flat skis and hopefully your hip socket right over the center or just forward of the center of your feet. Toppling would happen here. but because the skis are flat and our hips are in a very strong position, we can now turn our feet, edge the skis, skid and pivot, move down the hill with our COM, extend onto our new outside ski, shorten our new inside ski, etc.

It just opens up so many more options. If all we want to do is edge the skis and turn, so be it, but finding that balance in each turn (even if it's only for an instant) just makes us better and stronger skiers.

After 50 some years of skiing I spend almost no time analyzing what I am doing, so my perception of what is occurring my be way off.  I think what you guys are talking about in a general turn, as oppose to my description of skiing real steeps.  When it gets steep the natural inclination is to lean into the hill, which is exactly the opposite of what works best for executing the turn and edging your skis.  My "engagement" is probably not as late as I think, but there is definitely a weightless point where the skis come around effortlessly to the other direction, and my perception is that I am literally falling into the next turn.  I certainly start edging before getting completely perpendicular to the fall line, but it is definitely late compared to turning on flatter terrain.  That's all I was trying to convey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Louie 

Interesting....

 

If engagement is late and you try to get your head and upper body ahead of your skis and you aren't engaged what do you suppose happens ?

I think mudfoot is writing about balancing on the terrain on steeper slopes. The feeling might seem to be falling or toppling but it is commitment to moving forward  in balance.. How and when you engage the skis is a different consideration. The head is moving with the feet. Not ahead or behind .Either could spell troubles in such terrain

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarryZ 

I think mudfoot is writing about balancing on the terrain on steeper slopes. The feeling might seem to be falling or toppling but it is commitment to moving forward  in balance.. How and when you engage the skis is a different consideration. The head is moving with the feet. Not ahead or behind .Either could spell troubles in such terrain.

This sounds right to me. "Leading with your face" is a mindset to keep you vertical and fight the natural inclination to lean into the hill, if you actually get your upper body ahead of your skis (or behind) on the steeps things go wrong rather quickly.

Not sure I'm going to say this right but isn't the idea to never stop falling and never catch yourself?  You just keep falling from one direction to another because your skis redirected the fall and hopefully didn't disturb any of the forces along the way.

Similar to Bob's Medicine Ball video, but instead of visualizing catching the ball and throwing it back, picture the pass coming to you and you redirect it with your right hand around your back to your left hand then across to the next turn.  Less NBA and more Harlem Globetrotters.

In this clip right around 16 seconds you'll see the person in the center do what I'm talking about.  The ball is always falling too.

I prefer the term flow instead of fall. As JASP has noted, semantics plays a role here. To that I'll add teaching intent and execution. For execution the keys are starting body position and direction of the "fall". As FOM as noted, the goal here is to engage the new inside edges above the fall line. To do that the weight needs to get to the inside of the new turn. If that movement is initiated top down instead of bottom up and directly down the fall line instead of to the inside of the new turn, the edge engagement is going to occur later than it could otherwise. For teaching intent, I will sometimes use "back door" methods to try to get around mental blocks. So if the concept of "falling" helps to initiate the desired movements when more direct instruction fails to click, I'm ok with this.

The sensation of falling in between turns is common to many skiers progressing to the upper levels. One could think of it as a phase that some skiers go through on their way to higher performance levels. One could also think of it as a less direct route to higher performance levels. Teaching "falling" can be effective. Teaching more specific movements can be even more effective. There are potential problems with either approach.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatoldman 

L&AirC,

 

Are you really falling down the hill and falling either right or left or are you continually moving forward and using your skis to drive your body either right or left. I am skiing my best when I feel the most connected to the snow surface. Without this connection I become a ballistic object following an arc that will return me to the surface of the planet. This disconnection can feel like falling but to me it feels like a moment of floating over the snow surface.

 

fom

Well, I said I might not say it right and I'm not sure the "fall" is the correct word.

The sensations and the semantics are what make this difficult.

If you watch most people running downhill on a paved road, you'll see they are letting gravity pull them down and using their muscles to stop the force to keep it in control.  Just kick their feet out, land on their foot to "catch" themselves and then kick out the next foot. To me this is skidding.

Some people however will lean slightly downhill and run.  They shorten their stride a little and try to keep from having to catch themselves.  They bring themselves to the hairy edge of control and it takes less effort because they don't have to slow their body then push off.  They redirect further downhill with each step.  They don't catch themselves.  They use their feet to keep directing themselves downhill without disturbing the forces pulling them downhill.  That to me is similar to carving and how I feel when skiing.

How do you define forward?  Direction of the ski tips, direction of my zipper or direction of the fall line?  I don't thing we are ever always going in one of those.  Even if I'm pointing my zipper straight down the fall line, there are times my body will be going in different directions than the fall line, zipper or ski tips.

I don't think my skis drive me left or right.  I think my skis provide a stable platform for me to use so I can redirect my body in a direction that will help me be propelled in the direction I want to go. This will bring my skis to the next position I want them so I can do it again. The skis and skier are working as one providing for each other what they need.  If they are driving, it's because my body is forcing them too.

Or I'm completely wrong and the heat did get to me  

Back to cutting the grass and it's frickin' HOT!

Ken

A good instructor needs to have a range of words so that he can get the best performance out of his student.  Context is more important than the actual word used.  The words need to be tailored to the student you are teaching. 

For beginning student I would use the words “move towards the next turn” or “long leg, short leg” to establish the proper movement patterns.  I would not want to use the words fall or topple because of the negative connotation they have for a beginner.

For an intermediate student that had good beginning movement patterns I’d start using words of like flow, fall, and topple.  This will get them to start letting go and let gravity to the work.  It will get them to trust their skis.

For an advanced student I’d start using words like “charge, drive, push, or dive” into the turn.  I’m using more active words to describe the movement.  This should translate into my student being more aggressive in starting the turn.

So, the folly is not in using the word, fall.  The folly is in not having enough words to accurately describe what you need for that student, at that current performance level, and at that time.  It’s not about the word, it’s about the student.

FOM, I went back to your first post to come up with something to take this discussion to the next level. These ideas shout out to me.

First is the idea of motive forces. From what you wrote it seems like you are saying you prefer to use more internal muscle driven motive forces. Doing that is less efficient than exploiting the external motive forces that would take you there anyway. Raising your game often comes down to exploiting those external forces more and throttling back on our efforts to over manage the situation. DChan's last post suggests he is having just such an ephany when it comes to doing "just enough".

Second is the idea that early inclination precludes edge engagement. Not so.

So would it be fair to say it's difficult to come up with words that mean the same thing to everyone? Even the best stuggle with this problem. I've heard ten different words used to describe the dual paths crossing. Another ten to describe how it feels. What's most important is to understand that the core is not static, or stationary in this process.

It's a fun off-season problem, how to accurately describe the technical watershed of allowing gravity to power your turns. I'm always looking to make things as simple as I can, without getting simplistic. To me skiing is playing with gravity, terrain, and line to minimize the need for friction. Braking is a failure of imagination. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarryZ 

I think mudfoot is writing about balancing on the terrain on steeper slopes. The feeling might seem to be falling or toppling but it is commitment to moving forward  in balance.. How and when you engage the skis is a different consideration. The head is moving with the feet. Not ahead or behind .Either could spell troubles in such terrain

Yeah GarryZ aren't we always supposed to be moving? Picture yourself walking down a hallway in a hotel, doors on both side of the hall. Your room is on the left and as you walk closer you reach with your left hand to open the door. Stand up and try it now. Your whole body led by the left half moves towards the door, the foot and hand move together.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolo 

It's a fun off-season problem, how to accurately describe the technical watershed of allowing gravity to power your turns. I'm always looking to make things as simple as I can, without getting simplistic. To me skiing is playing with gravity, terrain, and line to minimize the need for friction. Braking is a failure of imagination. 

& fear.

Braking isn't a failure in my book. It's just another option and at times a necessary one. Even at world cup races you will see some braking if for no other reason than not to DNF. Gotta finish to win.

Just as long as braking is not the "Go To" or default movement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy 

 

Yeah GarryZ aren't we always supposed to be moving? Picture yourself walking down a hallway in a hotel, doors on both side of the hall. Your room is on the left and as you walk closer you reach with your left hand to open the door. Stand up and try it now. Your whole body led by the left half moves towards the door, the foot and hand move together.

Right , but also to find FOM's point for this thread  we should ask, What are we doing to make our skis take us there ? Are we falling  or moving our CM in concert with our feet to get us where we wish to go. The feet should take us there not the body trying to drag the feet along while totally missing out on the options available right from edge change by throwing our mass down the hill.

The top of our new turn is a nice moment, why rush it ?  Better yet ,develop it and find the rest tends to fall (hehe) in place when we get a good start into our new turns.

CM is moving through the transition.

JASP, I agree that sometimes braking is a necessity. I am saying that I imagine I am skiing like I'm riding a bike with no brakes downhill with bare feet. What's my line?