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ski rating and terminology .

post #1 of 8
Thread Starter 

when people rate ski's and talk about edge grip ,Or wether the ski holds an edge , I am wondering what this really means , Edge grip is relative to speed , I am no expert , But I have skiied a couple different types of ski , The obvious thing was the Saloman screams make short turns , If I gain ANY speed they are unstable  and don't hold a long slalom turn , Then I skiied some xmountain GS ski's  they make long fast GS turns ,Hold a straight run with stability untill they scare me enough to slow down , Go over tracked up crud [shallow tracks ] But are hard to run the moguls , Then the dynastar 4x4 atv , An old ski I  have Turns some where in the middle of the two but seems kinda stiff for me at 147Lbs , and they are unstable at high speeds , But I can make them better by making a long round turn , 

   None of these skis do the same thing at all , The dynastar 170cm   4x4 atv will skid out on a short turn . But a large radius like a guess arc of a 40 foot measuring tape attached and swung , The 4x4 feels good , But they feel like a 2X4 over the moguls the tips plunge or jamb and seem to bend hard ,tipping me forward ,

   So i have decided to buy the atomic blackeye ti ,  Is it a completely dumb Idea to buy with out demo ing a ski ?

   What I would hate is if they performed like the saloman screams , Which SUCK . The guy that let me try them said the same , The Salomans have to be in a turn or they suck and he is 40 year skiier at 70 years of age ,

   Any way to reiterate the other question ... what  is edge hold when it is related to speed and Ice? groomed or anything in between , But mostly Snoqualmie is Ice or hardpack or some degree of hardpack ,Is edge hold ONLY a relative term ?

   I ski 15 to 25 times a year can make the easy moguls with some rythim .,However the speed demons are off the Black d  moguls when I am 1/3rd down , I make small jumps and scream down the blues and pass everyone except the 10% . So what ever level skiier that makes me , I am trying to get a good edge hold at Snoqualmie , which I think i have decided on the Atomic blackeye ti fo 600 A$ with binings

post #2 of 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Williams View Post

when people rate ski's and talk about edge grip ,Or wether the ski holds an edge , I am wondering what this really means , Edge grip is relative to speed , I am no expert , But I have skiied a couple different types of ski , The obvious thing was the Saloman screams make short turns , If I gain ANY speed they are unstable  and don't hold a long slalom turn , Then I skiied some xmountain GS ski's  they make long fast GS turns ,Hold a straight run with stability untill they scare me enough to slow down , Go over tracked up crud [shallow tracks ] But are hard to run the moguls , Then the dynastar 4x4 atv , An old ski I  have Turns some where in the middle of the two but seems kinda stiff for me at 147Lbs , and they are unstable at high speeds , But I can make them better by making a long round turn , 

   None of these skis do the same thing at all , The dynastar 170cm   4x4 atv will skid out on a short turn . But a large radius like a guess arc of a 40 foot measuring tape attached and swung , The 4x4 feels good , But they feel like a 2X4 over the moguls the tips plunge or jamb and seem to bend hard ,tipping me forward ,

   So i have decided to buy the atomic blackeye ti ,  Is it a completely dumb Idea to buy with out demo ing a ski ?

   What I would hate is if they performed like the saloman screams , Which SUCK . The guy that let me try them said the same , The Salomans have to be in a turn or they suck and he is 40 year skiier at 70 years of age ,

   Any way to reiterate the other question ... what  is edge hold when it is related to speed and Ice? groomed or anything in between , But mostly Snoqualmie is Ice or hardpack or some degree of hardpack ,Is edge hold ONLY a relative term ?

   I ski 15 to 25 times a year can make the easy moguls with some rythim .,However the speed demons are off the Black d  moguls when I am 1/3rd down , I make small jumps and scream down the blues and pass everyone except the 10% . So what ever level skiier that makes me , I am trying to get a good edge hold at Snoqualmie , which I think i have decided on the Atomic blackeye ti fo 600 A$ with binings

 

I posted in your other thread on this in gear discussion, but yea, the first thing to adjust is the price you're looking at will be well under $500 from STP (but will probably need to pay for mounting) if you're willing to buy online and wait around for the right coupon if that sways your opinion (and it should).

post #3 of 8

IMO buying without trying is a mistake unless the skis are cheap enough that you can easily resell and recoup your $. There are just too many subtle differences between skis and skiers.

post #4 of 8

double post


Edited by raytseng - 5/15/12 at 12:23pm
post #5 of 8

To answer your original question, there are a lot more factors in play.  I will try to explain what I think with my n00b knowledge.


Grip at the end of the day is the force of the ski edge in the surface to allow it to change direction (turn).

 

But there are more factors than just speed.  some that i can think of.

1) turning radius of the ski

2) length of ski 

3) geometry of the ski and where your boot/body goes compared to edge of the ski in the surface

4) stiffness of the ski and how much it bends to change the TR

5) weight/technique of skier combined with speed provides the force

6) turn radius requested

 

I have older model blackeye which has a larger turning radius.  This works great for me, and I can hold fast sweeping turns and no matter how much i push into the turn with my legs, the skis just seems to dig into the snow more  and won't slip out.

 

In comparison, i've demoed some k2 rictors with a shorter turn radius.  If I try the exact same turn I did, when i apply more force, the skis turn more into their natural turning radius and then eventually begin to skip out because the force to hold into that shorter radius turn is greater, and I cannot apply more force at the same speed without the ski trying to go tighter..

 

So that is what grip means to me.

 


So... all that being said, the new Blackeye you are looking at is well respected; it definitely doesn't suck especially compared to those 10year old Xscream skis you mentioned.

 

I don't know if it is the best ski for you, compared to other options, as DanoT said you have to try it.

 

If you are looking for an STP coupon, PM me, i got a 25->35% off coupon depending on amount spent, goes for others too,  (3 uses)

post #6 of 8
Thread Starter 

Thanks , That was Generally what I am experiencing , Different skis have a different radius and skip .or are unstable at high speed . I took lessons a few time , About 20 hours total lessons , I am coordinated enough to have participated in high level sports , BUT One of the Instructors said he see's guys like me[Wide stance ]  Have a bad habit derived from wrestling , He hit the nail on the head , I never thought I  would do much as a recreational skiier , It seems I will have as many ski's as fishing rods , It's pure hell haveing two hobbies I love, My 12 year old son goes with me  for both , OK Not really , I think  I am having the time of my life !

post #7 of 8

There are a lot of factors involved when it comes to grip on hard or icy conditions.

 

The first one that comes to mind is torsional rigidity.  Having a ski that will hold  the angle your boot sets it at and grip instead of twist to a lesser angle and let go is a requirement.  You can compensate a little by setting a bigger angle at the boot, but that can only help so much, as the ends of the skis will not have the same angle as the under-foot section, allowing the tips and tails to slip while the centre holds.  You do need a bit of flexibility or wiggle room to adapt to the actual surface and to change the turn as you move forward.

 

Another factor is sharp edges on ice, and the angle to which you can sharpen them.  My Volants, for example cannot be set to a 3 degree side edge angle,  They were designed for 1 degree on the side, and have a metal cap, so a sidewall planer won't help.

 

Longitudinal stiffness plays a role too,  A stiffer ski spreads out the load to the tip and tails, but requires more force to bend into a turn and will not feel good and responsive at lower speeds.

 

The above determines how much grip might be available and how it is distributed.  There are ways to use that grip and ways to waste it or overcome it.  Obviously poor technique will not allow full use, but I will concentrate on ski design.

 

Turn radius, is important.  A ski that has a short turn radius cannot cut a clean turn on a hard surface at a turn radius greater than it's side cut radius.  You have to tip the ski to align the net force perpendicular through the base.  For any given tipping angle the ski will try to bend into and carve a given size of turn (on a hard surface).  If that turn dialed up is tighter than the turn you are making the tips and tails will be skidding.  A ski with a long radius designed for big turns will be stiff, if you force it to carve a very tight turn a lot of that grip is being used just to bend the ski,  If you were going zero miles per hour and had a 27 m sidecut ski bent into a 12 m turn, grip would be used up just to keep the ski bent.  Add some speed and you have more force and more grip required.

 

Damping is important when speed increases, you need good contact with the snow/ice, and a vibrating ski does not have good contact.  Too much damping slows down a skis ability to react quickly at slower speeds.

 

For the best grip on ice at speed, choose a racing ski in the appropriate turn size for the speeds and turn sizes you ski and keep the edge acute and sharp.  Deviate from this standard by going to less stiff longitudinally for slower (relative to the discipline slow for GS is fast for SL) speeds.  Also if you don't have the skills a ski that slips instead of grips might be a little easier to take and not beat you up when you make mistakes. 

post #8 of 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Williams View Post

Thanks , That was Generally what I am experiencing , Different skis have a different radius and skip .or are unstable at high speed . I took lessons a few time , About 20 hours total lessons , I am coordinated enough to have participated in high level sports , BUT One of the Instructors said he see's guys like me[Wide stance ]  Have a bad habit derived from wrestling , He hit the nail on the head , I never thought I  would do much as a recreational skiier , It seems I will have as many ski's as fishing rods , It's pure hell haveing two hobbies I love, My 12 year old son goes with me  for both , OK Not really , I think  I am having the time of my life !

Wide stance is not necessarily a bad habit, depending on just how wide your stance is.  The idea is hip width apart.  A touch wider is not a bad thing. 

I'll never forget the words of Robin Barnes at an ESA when she was trying to get me to widen my stance.   "May my hips never be as wide as my stance" 

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