Price of shell jackets

long story short- yes these fabrics do cost a lot because they work. the insulation is not what makes a jacket expensive, its the amount of work that is required to weld seams, minimize materials, waterproof zippers removable powder skirts and so on.  Materials like goretex, Event, OutDry and others are costly, the 3L version of shells require super thin but highly durable water and wind proofness and still provide breathability which is why you don't wear a plastic bag when skiing/riding. 

you don't need to pay full price and won't have to in the off season. Not sure if you can order from online shops like sierra trading post www.sierratradingpost.com and www.departmentofgoods.com  both have very good quality jackets on sale right now. Department of Goods is a division of Backcountry.com and is running a big 50% off sale.  

Some excellent less costly brands are Mountain Hardwear, Outdoor research (OR) Millet, I like TNF "Summit Series" line, Mammut, Westcomb and a few others. If you are on a tight budget, look for at least 10K/10K materials often found in 2L materials. the Key to all H2o-proofness is the DWR, so any jacket you get needs to be kept clean and you should wash it a DWR replacement treatment like Graingers or Nikwax  twice a season or anytime you notice that moisture is permeating the fabric.  

G'day Vlad. Everything Finndog said is correct.

Also, you can use a good quality shell for over 5 years. I used one for almost 10 and I rode it hard and out it away wet - literally. I did not even wash it for the first 4 or 5 years I had it! (please don't do that with yours when you get it). It is still in good condition. Lower quality shell would have fallen apart long ago. 

I went from a shell to an insulated Mountain Force jacket after spending a week in Whistler at -20C most of the time and getting stuck on the red chair for 30 mins straight once. It gets a touch warm but I'd rather dump heat through the pit zips or neck rather than get a core chill hanging on the peak chair in a 50kph wind. And it has a 20/25 fabric. But it's also a ferociously expensive piece of clothing (for all the reasons Finndog mentioned) and I plan on using it at least 6 years and 10 if I can.

Kia ora!

The advantage of a shell is the ability to layer your clothes. If you're too hot in an insulated jacket there's not much you can do about it. The thing to look for in a shell is waterproof/breathability, which is what makes them expensive. Goretex is probably the most expensive fabric. While I like it, a lot of people feel it doesn't breath well enough for very active sports--its emphasis is more on waterproofness, and some of the less waterproof and more breathable treatments, like North Face's Hyvent, are a lot cheaper. The top of the the line gear is suitable for serious mountaineering.  The average resort skier doesn't need the features or the durability of that kind of gear.  If you were happy in the jacket you're replacing you probably don't need to go top of the line, particularly if you tend to ski only when it's sunny.  I don't know what's available in NZ but I'm sure you can find something cheaper than Arcteryx that will work fine. Just looking through the North Face catalogue I see a lot of stuff under $200 USD that would work for you.

 Shells come as one layer or with a light cloth or mesh lining. I personally like the lining for the extra windproofing and because it keeps any moisture trapped under the outer layer away from your insulating layer.

Again--if you were happy in your insulated jacket don't feel like you have to go to a shell because of what you've hear or read, but if you found yourself overheating a lot than a shell would be the way to go.

SierraTradingPost usually ships abroad, so you shouldn`t have a problem. It`s easy to find 30% or 35% extra discount over their sales prices which makes it very attractive!

They currently have good OR, Marmot and Mountain Hardwear shells and soft shells available that will cost you less than $200 plus shipping which might not be so cheap in your case.

Look for the OR Motto softshell, Marmot freerider goretex performance shell and Mountain Hardwear Snowpocalypse/Snowtastic DryQ shells.

I haven`t heard much about the Marmot, but the OR Motto and the DryQ Shells from MH are highly recommended.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldgoat 

Again--if you were happy in your insulated jacket don't feel like you have to go to a shell because of what you've hear or read, but if you found yourself overheating a lot than a shell would be the way to go.

^^^^^  I agree with the OG.  Don't go with something different just because it happens to be trendy at the moment.  Something else will be the "must-have" thing in a couple of years anyway.  If you like your insulated jacket and it works for you, maybe you should just get another one.    

I have a couple of newer hard-shells and a 6-year old insulated jacket.  If I misjudge what the temp will be, the IJ can indeed overheat, but that doesn't generally happen.  For the other 98% of the time I have it on, tho, I just find it to be the most comfortable and convenient of my ski duds.  I have an uber-expensive Gore-Tex shell for days when I expect at least moderate precipitation (our snow is usually of the "wet" sort here) and a less expensive, light-weight shell for warm Spring days.  That said and FWIW, I wear the old insulated jacket 75-80% of the time.

Any brand mentioned above will be good, so just go with what you like, what works best, is affordable, and most importantly, what fits.  I have TNF, Mountain Hardware, Marmot, BD, and Patagonia, but I prefer the first two just for features and fit.  Great sales here now, but I don't know if the cost of shipping to NZ will negate the savings from the higher prices there at the start of your season.  

one thing you might consider in getting a shell instead of a insulated jacket is if you have plans on using the jacket other than for ski. shells indeed need insulation layers like fleece or down jackets and that`s gonna add up in the price of your gear, on the other hand they are usually more flexible. You can use shells for hiking in the spring,summer,fall or you might use it for around town when it`s raining. you don`t usually have this flexibility with an insulated jacket.

I'm not a fan of heavily insulated jackets -- I overheat too fast unless it's REALLY cold.  But they ARE nice when it's so cold that you need two or three layers (plus a base) under a shell.  In those conditions you probably only need one under an insulated windproof jacket, which is more comfortable.

Jackets with lighter levels of insulation won't overheat you as much, but then might not be warm enough in brutal cold.  That's why most people go for shells and layering, since unless you own three or four different jackets for different temperatures (or pick and choose your ski days) you'll need to layer some of the time anyway.

You might also take a look at 'soft shell' jackets, which have become more popular in recent years.  These are usually VERY breathable, and more comfortable than a hard shell, but still reasonably water-resistant and windproof.  Material tends to be a little thicker and more insulating than a hard shell like Gore-Tex, but they're usually light enough for three-season use.  You'll still need some fleece/down/etc. underneath when it's cold, though.

My main ski jacket right now is a custom soft shell from Beyond Clothing (www.beyondclothing.com).  If you can wear normal sizes, there are cheaper options from most of the big manufacturers.  Given the custom manufacturing the price is competitive with high-end jackets from manufacturers like Arcteryx.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexzn 

On the soft shells: they suck for skiing in any kinds of bad weather. They are never a substitute for a hard shell, despite claims of water resistance. A shell that soaks through in two hours will turn the rest of your skiing day miserable. Soft shells are nice on a sunny day, but if you own only one shell it needs to be a hard shell.

I wouldn't use a soft-shell as an exterior layer unless it was a warm and sunny day.  They make great mid-layers, tho!

I also have a sorta pricey MH soft-shell that I use as a mid-layer under the hard-shell, or just to walk the dog, around town, or whatever.  It's my favorite piece at the moment.

With a budget in mind, the most practical solution might be to get a moderately priced and moderately insulated jacket as well as a moderately priced and more water-resistant hard-shell.  With the shirts/vests/sweaters most of us have already, it seems those two items would cover 99% of the conditions one would be likely to encounter while skiing.

(Arcteryx and the like is super-nice gear, but for anyone on a budget, I think it can also be overkill.  Less expensive but still pretty doggone good options out there.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexzn 

On the soft shells: they suck for skiing in any kinds of bad weather. They are never a substitute for a hard shell, despite claims of water resistance. A shell that soaks through in two hours will turn the rest of your skiing day miserable. Soft shells are nice on a sunny day, but if you own only one shell it needs to be a hard shell.

Depends on the shell.  Cheap soft shells with poor or nonexistent DWR just get wet.  But yeah, even the good ones are not as waterproof as a true hard shell material.  They do generally dry quickly because they breathe so well, but that doesn't help if you're getting soaked constantly.

For light to moderate snow I find my soft shell works pretty decently.  Most of it just doesn't stick.  For spending hours in rain, you probably want something more waterproof.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexzn 

Matthias-  

 

You ski on the East Coast, and it is COLD there, so the snow does not melt.  Here in the warm and fortunately not always sunny California the snow tends to melt as soon as it lands on you.  A traditional soft shell absolutely blows in that kind of climate.  Here on a storm day you need good GoreTex with strong DWR, as you are literally sitting in a puddle half of the time.   I can totally see how a good soft shell would not soak through in a cold snowstorm.  On the other hand, it may be too breathable to stay warm in that condition...  so I would get a hardshell way before I get a softshell...

 

 

We do get some warm weather here in NE, too, especially in March/April.  I had a trip to Stowe a few years ago where it was raining in January!

It's usually not sunny while it's snowing, and if it's cold enough to actually come down as 'snow' it's probably not melting "as soon as it lands on you".  I felt like my jacket held up just fine in the whiteout conditions on two days at the ESG this year (Tahoe, late February), but YMMV.

If you hate hate HATE being even slightly wet, or plan on skiing in sleet or rain, a hard shell is a better choice.  Just offering another option...

Check out Sierra Trading Post but also keep a very close eye on Steep and Cheap......the deals there rotate and there are some AWESOME deals going on right now.  There have been a few Mountain Hardware jackets for dirt cheap.  HIGHLY recommend.  The MH DryQ Elite stuff is customized eVent, better and cheaper than Gore-Tex.  I also have a Westcomb shell, and it's eVent but far more expensive than my Mountain Hardware jackets.

Grab an MH jacket on sale from STP or S&C.  Can't go wrong at all.  S&C had a MH Gravitor yesterday for $100.  Unbelievable for a quality tech jacket.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunnerbob 

Check out Sierra Trading Post but also keep a very close eye on Steep and Cheap......the deals there rotate and there are some AWESOME deals going on right now.  There have been a few Mountain Hardware jackets for dirt cheap.  HIGHLY recommend.  The MH DryQ Elite stuff is customized eVent, better and cheaper than Gore-Tex.  I also have a Westcomb shell, and it's eVent but far more expensive than my Mountain Hardware jackets.

 

Grab an MH jacket on sale from STP or S&C.  Can't go wrong at all.  S&C had a MH Gravitor yesterday for $100.  Unbelievable for a quality tech jacket.

Talking about MH, Today SAC had a snowtastic softshell for $163... this is cheaper than you can get on STP using 35% coupons... great price! Unfortunately MH has a single feature that is a deal breaker for me... their cuffs doesn`t really work for under the cuff gloves... and I hate having my jacket packet under my gloves... :-(

Another good place to watch out for gear is The Clymb, but there is nothing good for snow sports lately.

True, MH cuff designs are a bit slim for most gloves, though I use gauntlets for the most part.  That said, I think it's a small compromise for getting amazing tech jackets for such cheap prices now.

Vlad,

The goals of a hardshell are to be waterproof, breatheable and tough.  Some compromise toughness to get more breathability, some go the other way.

The main reason the hard shells are so expensive is the cost of the waterproof, breatheable liners--Goretex or E-vent.  I don't think Gore lets anyone other than Gore itself attach the Goretex liner to the outer facing fabric of the jacket.

On Arcteryx shells you also pay extra for craftsmanship/quality control/warranty.  I don't percieve the other high-quality brands (Mountain Hardwear, Outdoor Research, Maramot, TNF (some garments) as charging quite as much of a premium, at least not when you are looking at the post-season sale prices. 

Patagonia does not use goretex or e-vent (their product is called H2no, or something like that).  TNF uses its own "hyvent" on its low-to-middle price gear, but goretex on the high priced stuff.

I usually ski in a Burton goretex pro shell jacket that I picked up on sale a couple of seasons ago for around $200 US.  It does fine by me.  I also own a Montaine e-vent jacket that I use occasionally when I think I will need more breatheability, but conditions are not right for a soft-shell.  I agree with Alexzn and Matthias that soft shells can be more breathable than a Goretex or E-vent hard shell (and cheaper), but they are not as water proof.

I prefer to wear fleece as a mid-layer under my hard shell (not a soft shell).  Why?  Because fleece breathes very well, better than any soft shell that provides comparable insulation.  When I come in to the lodge after skiing bumps on a cold day, the inner face of my hard shell may be wet/clammy (which shows the hard shell isn't quite breatheable enough, despite the fancy fabrics), but my skin will be dry, which is the key to staying warm.  Some folks seem to prefer down sweaters as their mid-layer, but the shell that the down is encased in isn't particularly breatheable (compared to fleece), and down may hold some water, so I stick to varying fleece layers.  Cheap and effective.

If you have any interest in learning about the theory behind layering under a shell, check out this blog: http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/gear/clothing.html

Good luck making your decision.

STE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Lee 


Excellent post, except that not too long ago Patagonia resumed using Gore products in some of their products. They have used it off and on over the years. But anyway, it's on now, ie:
http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/patagonia-mens-super-alpine-jacket-with-gore-tex?p=83645-0-804
Patagonia continues to use H2No as well.

Thanks, Bob.  I stand corrected.  Last time I looked I was with a friend who was shopping for a Patagonia jacket. He bought a H2No jacket (it looks like the Shelter Stone, but it has some insulation) and he's quite happy with the jacket.  It was a couple of seasons ago, I should've checked.  The prices haven't changed.  

STE

I am thin and don't tend to get overheated. I have several good quality soft shells and hard shells (Arcteryx, Phenix, Vist, etc.). On a cold day, I still prefer an insulated jacket (which also is a high tech fabric with great waterproofing) and will sometimes wear a wind stopping soft shell under it as a mid layer. For me, shells are not suitable as a top layer for very cold weather. If I get one big enough to put enough layers on underneath, I am swimming in it without all the interior stuff plus, all those mid layers are also pricey bringing the total "outfit" to a very high price not to mention making me feel like the "Michelin" man (or in my case, woman).

I've tended to find the same.  Hard shells seems to be less suitable for the truly cold days.  East coast can get REALLY cold at times, which is "normal", so I have a separate hard shell for nicer days and an insulated jacket for the cold temps.  Lots of layers for the really cold just ends up feeling bulky.

A very good tech insulated jacket (not puffy) with a hard shell-esque exterior works wonders with the new lightweight and breathable fabrics (like DryQ Elite).  A simple mid-layer thin fleece is light and warm, moves sweat through, and then a merino base layer than won't stink after a couple uses. For the cold days, I've found this setup is outstanding.  Doesn't get clammy, stays dry and warm against the body, and is quite lightweight.

I'm always amused at how many people wear expedition-grade gear for resort skiing in our very tame area. It's Canada. Everyone has a light, warm jacket that's fine for most of the skiing around here. I went all winter wearing a base layer, an ultralight Primaloft jacket and a 10-10 w/b shell. I put on a fleece vest under the shell if that wasn't enough. One day, when it was -20 and windy, I put on a cheap insulated Columbia jacket that I usually wear for dog walking and putting out the garbage. It was fine. I don't mean to damage the ski fashion industry, but a lot of people spend a lot more than they need to on clothes.

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about huge, high-altitude mountains where distances are great and conditions are treacherous. I mean places like my little home hill where you are rarely out of sight of the lodge.

Vlad. In NZ best bet is looking at the multiple brands that Bivouac holds which are on sale now or even Kathmandu also as their winter range has just come out. At least join the summit club for $10, as the regular prices are plain silly. BUT at the moment you can get up 70% off at Kathmandu if you know the right person as there are 50-70% off everything in store discount letters floating around. It's valid for another 2 weeks. If you decide to buy off internet and go anywhere near NZD $400 you will get stung GST and also apparel tax by customs if they notice when it turns up.

But for conditions over here you very rarely need an insulated jacket. It's not that cold and a decent Gore-Tex type shell with pit zips and a few other things like a hood is a much better proposition in my opinion. You can also use it in summer and for other things like kids sports as it is waterproof which a lot of other fabric ski jackets are not. It rains a lot here too even when skiing so....

Personally I went upper level and got Arcteryx stuff (an Alpha SV and Fission SV) and I think after 5 years use it's definately been worth it. Nothing gets through that stuff.

You can then layer underneath with a good synthetic jacket like an Arcteryx Atom or a light weight down option like Patagonia which will keep you warm regardless of what weather you are skiing in winter here. Worse case can go fleece as it's cheap but effective, it's just more bulky these days.

For a base layer you can't beat buying Icebreaker here of whatever weight you decide to wear. Just get that from the icebreaker outlet shops as it's way cheaper. I know you said you don't like wool but Icebreaker isn't like traditional wool products.

So layering is the way to go. I take both when skiing North America which is colder than here and I still sue the layering stuff i.e shell and insulation more as it's much more customisable depending on conditions.

Good Luck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vladiator 

my employer annually gives me a couple of grand which I can only spend in a few health/activity-related stores, including skiing stores.  

That's the greatest thing I've ever heard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by slipshod 

I'm always amused at how many people wear expedition-grade gear for resort skiing in our very tame area. It's Canada. Everyone has a light, warm jacket that's fine for most of the skiing around here. I went all winter wearing a base layer, an ultralight Primaloft jacket and a 10-10 w/b shell. I put on a fleece vest under the shell if that wasn't enough. One day, when it was -20 and windy, I put on a cheap insulated Columbia jacket that I usually wear for dog walking and putting out the garbage. It was fine. I don't mean to damage the ski fashion industry, but a lot of people spend a lot more than they need to on clothes.

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about huge, high-altitude mountains where distances are great and conditions are treacherous. I mean places like my little home hill where you are rarely out of sight of the lodge.

You don't really know if they ski only at that hill, though, do you? Or use the jackets only while skiing? there are also many other activities in which one can use a high-end shell, most of which do stress a jacket more than skiing does, that's true. But if you only have one jacket, might as well do everything in it. Including ski at a small hill.