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The Iconoclastic Automatic Turn - Page 8

post #211 of 224

So - at the risk of deviating too much from the original purpose of this thread, I finally had SNOW last weekend and obviously played with this a bit.

 

Here's the countersteering turn in skiing, that I've been playing with - steps you can replicate:

 

  1. pick a slalom ski, say 12m
  2. gingerly start a wide turn, say 15m
  3. instead of checking your email while waiting for the turn to finish on its own, 
  4. push the inside knee more into the turn (down into the snow), this will start a chain of events:
  5. the ouside knee will phantomatically follow
  6. skis will tip more and increase the angle to the snow
  7. forces increase on the ski, and, if you solve all the equations in Le Master's book, this force is bending them more and tightening the arc, to 12m or less
  8. the body will instead continue travelling over the skiis and into the next turn.
  9. since the body is now over the skis, the skis will tip and start the next turn.

 

this is classic countersteering, no doubts about it.

 

it may not work that well with a larger GS turn, because the body is travelling more across the hill, with the skis in the transition.

post #212 of 224
Thread Starter 

RAZIE  I have  described the countersteering the Automatic Turn is based  on.You should try it on the snow so we are both on the same page. Start with the beginner Automatic Wedge Turn which I have described in a previous post for your best chanve at success. REGARDS,  Bruce.     

post #213 of 224

Alright - fine. slow day here, so i finally took the time to read most of your doc.

 

you got a lot of things right, i wouldn't call them cross-under and cross-over because that's not what is going on. yes, flex-to-release versus extend-to-release makes more sense and describe what actually happens.

 

yes, flex-to-release is the better approach. i don't quite like flex-turn-extend because it implies turning is finished before extending, which is not right...

 

your  description of the perfect turn is very pmts-like in describing the effects and thus is right on many points :) flex-to-release, float through the transition, carve the top, extend with light pressure on the top, etc.

 

the one i have a beef with is pushing the skis versus just tipping them. i don't think the carve should be interrupted by brushing the top, which pushing the skis will cause. however, i think i get your point: if i brush the top then i will start a turn, sounds right.

 

i don't know how much is physics and how much is the cat in our brains - probably both.

 

i see you describe the bullet-proof short turn if i'm not mistaken, except you advocate pushing the tails sideways/diagonal to start the brushing part and argue that's what causes the rest to follow.

 

it may be so, i'll play with it this weekend - i was going to try my new GS skis anyways and this sounds like a tamer version of the non-carved GS turn, where you throw the skis sideways to start it and pray you'll find an edge before loosing it :) - i won't be trying the wedge thing man, it always makes me think i'll destroy my knees if i catch an edge... it's freaky that way... i need my knees for motocross he he

 

cheers,

Razie


Edited by razie - 12/6/12 at 11:11am
post #214 of 224
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

Alright - fine. slow day here, so i finally took the time to read most of your doc.

 

you got a lot of things right, i wouldn't call them cross-under and cross-over because that's not what is going on. yes, flex-to-release versus extend-to-release makes more sense and describe what actually happens.

 

yes, flex-to-release is the better approach. i don't quite like flex-turn-extend because it implies turning is finished before extending, which is not right...

 

your  description of the perfect turn is very pmts-like in describing the effects and thus is right on many points :) flex-to-release, float through the transition, carve the top, extend with light pressure on the top, etc.

 

the one i have a beef with is pushing the skis versus just tipping them. i don't think the carve should be interrupted by brushing the top, which pushing the skis will cause. however, i think i get your point: if i brush the top then i will start a turn, sounds right.

 

i don't know how much is physics and how much is the cat in our brains - probably both.

 

i see you describe the bullet-proof short turn if i'm not mistaken, except you advocate pushing the tails sideways/diagonal to start the brushing part and argue that's what causes the rest to follow.

 

it may be so, i'll play with it this weekend - i was going to try my new GS skis anyways and this sounds like a tamer version of the non-carved GS turn, where you throw the skis sideways to start it and pray you'll find an edge before loosing it :) - i won't be trying the wedge thing man, it always makes me think i'll destroy my knees if i catch an edge... it's freaky that way... i need my knees for motocross he he

 

cheers,

Razie

I would refer you to post # 152which is detailed description of the biginner Automatic Wedge Turn. If you read manuscript an d then go to the slopes you will fail. If you make notes in your own words and take the to the slopes you will likely fail. If you make notes using my words exactly you will likely accomplish the Automatic wedge Turn in due time. Regards, Bruce

post #215 of 224
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

So - at the risk of deviating too much from the original purpose of this thread, I finally had SNOW last weekend and obviously played with this a bit.

 

Here's the countersteering turn in skiing, that I've been playing with - steps you can replicate:

 

  1. pick a slalom ski, say 12m
  2. gingerly start a wide turn, say 15m
  3. instead of checking your email while waiting for the turn to finish on its own, 
  4. push the inside knee more into the turn (down into the snow), this will start a chain of events:I assume that line
  5. the ouside knee will phantomatically follow
  6. skis will tip more and increase the angle to the snow
  7. forces increase on the ski, and, if you solve all the equations in Le Master's book, this force is bending them more and tightening the arc, to 12m or less
  8. the body will instead continue travelling over the skiis and into the next turn.
  9. since the body is now over the skis, the skis will tip and start the next turn.

 

this is classic countersteering, no doubts about it.

 

it may not work that well with a larger GS turn, because the body is travelling more across the hill, with the skis in the transition.

How does your countersteering compare with that for the Automatic Turn compare in on the snow trials?  I assume that Line 4 to read " push the inside knee of the forthcoming turn ... I no longer ski but think it is the responsibility of the skier to do on the snow trial and error tests to figure out what the author means. Advise.  REGARDS, Bruce

post #216 of 224

Hi Bruce, 

 

Have you posted a video as of yet?

post #217 of 224
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

Hi Bruce, 

 

Have you posted a video as of yet?

YES,I have. You can find it at Post # 155 of 11/26/2012. It is about 20 years old! You would be expect to read my manuscript and try the teaching progressions on the snow Search the automaticturn.com

post #218 of 224

Ah, I've read a bit more about your intent to create "automatic" turns. In CSIA's framework, your concept appears in phase 3 of the turn, or the loading phase, and completes as we enter phase 1, the release phase. I work on this a lot with my participants to help them create higher performance turns, and to reduce traversing.

 

In phase 3, we increase the load on the skis by tipping to high edge angles. The body's mass, which was driving downhill, is now being deflected through the skis. 

In the next phase, phase 1, we release the edges. By flatting the skis, the upper body can flow or "topple" downhill (down past the skis), and the skis begin to arc, potentially on a new edge depending on the skill and intent of the skier. 

In phase 2, edging, we create a platform and steer the skis through to, roughly, the fall line. Not "automatic", but I assume the automatic refers to the transition and engaging the sidecut of the ski. 

 

The ideal outcome is a series of efficiently linked turns free of odd contortions, stepping, heel pushing, wasted effort, etc.

 

While I'd agree that the concept you're driving for is valid (assuming it aligns with what I've said above), it's really only demonstrable when skiing with a centered and mobile stance (including mobility in the ankle/knee joint/hip), balancing on the edges, and turning effort led by the lower body. I'm not seeing these competencies in the video, so I'm cobbling together your intent based on the text descriptions earlier in the thread. JB, does my explanation above match your intent with the automatic turn?  

 

SkiDude, have I represented this idea appropriately from a CSIA perspective? I wonder if people might be getting hung up on the word "countersteer"...

post #219 of 224
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

Ah, I've read a bit more about your intent to create "automatic" turns. In CSIA's framework, your concept appears in phase 3 of the turn, or the loading phase, and completes as we enter phase 1, the release phase. I work on this a lot with my participants to help them create higher performance turns, and to reduce traversing.

 

In phase 3, we increase the load on the skis by tipping to high edge angles. The body's mass, which was driving downhill, is now being deflected through the skis. 

In the next phase, phase 1, we release the edges. By flatting the skis, the upper body can flow or "topple" downhill (down past the skis), and the skis begin to arc, potentially on a new edge depending on the skill and intent of the skier. 

In phase 2, edging, we create a platform and steer the skis through to, roughly, the fall line. Not "automatic", but I assume the automatic refers to the transition and engaging the sidecut of the ski. 

 

The ideal outcome is a series of efficiently linked turns free of odd contortions, stepping, heel pushing, wasted effort, etc.

 

While I'd agree that the concept you're driving for is valid (assuming it aligns with what I've said above), it's really only demonstrable when skiing with a centered and mobile stance (including mobility in the ankle/knee joint/hip), balancing on the edges, and turning effort led by the lower body. I'm not seeing these competencies in the video, so I'm cobbling together your intent based on the text descriptions earlier in the thread. JB, does my explanation above match your intent with the automatic turn?  

s to find out

SkiDude, have I represented this idea appropriately from a CSIA perspective? I wonder if people might be getting hung up on the word "countersteer"...

METAPHOR. Thank you for your letter.I will try to explain  the Automatic Turn as best I can at the expense of making alot of people many people mad.Most comments about coutersteering and the Automatic turn made by people who have not accomplished it on the snow shpuld be regarded as speculation! There is a force in skiing instruction that has been overlooked. That force is the effect of countersteering on turning skis.The force is very weak and easily missed. You will not find it unless you know it exist and are specifally looking for it. You will be well rewarded by accomplishing the Automatic Turn on the snow.. You will be expected to some trial and error test tofinf out what I mean You also have me to help you.REGARDS,  Bruce

post #220 of 224

So I took the time to read this thread trying hard to imagine WTF jbharstad is describing. And then the video came and now I hold jbharstad responsible for wasting 20 minutes of my time. 

 

Somebody please tell me this is a joke. Who would want to aspire to ski like the guy in the video? th_dunno-1[1].gif

post #221 of 224
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post

So I took the time to read this thread trying hard to imagine WTF jbharstad is describing. And then the video came and now I hold jbharstad responsible for wasting 20 minutes of my time. 

 

Somebody please tell me this is a joke. Who would want to aspire to ski like the guy in the video? th_dunno-1[1].gif

TomB   Drop your pen and pick up your skis and go teach yourself the Automatic Turn and read the manuscript beforehand.

post #222 of 224
Thread Starter 

THE AUTOMATIC TURN REVISITED    Well, the ski season is almost over in many places, but you still have time to teach yourself and others the Automatic Turn. BTW I have revised the manuscript to to include some of your suggestions. IT would be great if you would tell the EPIC community your experiences in learning or teaching the Automatic Turn. Both sucess and failures welcome  REGARDS,   Bruce

post #223 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbharstad View Post

THE AUTOMATIC TURN REVISITED    Well, the ski season is almost over in many places, but you still have time to teach yourself and others the Automatic Turn. BTW I have revised the manuscript to to include some of your suggestions. IT would be great if you would tell the EPIC community your experiences in learning or teaching the Automatic Turn. Both sucess and failures welcome  REGARDS,   Bruce

 

Sweet, it was either work on my tax return tonight or read the updated manuscript.  Thanks for giving me yet another reason to postpone the inevitable.  icon14.gif

 

Beating_A_Dead_Horse_by_livius.gif

post #224 of 224
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinF View Post

 

Sweet, it was either work on my tax return tonight or read the updated manuscript.  Thanks for giving me yet another reason to postpone the inevitable.  icon14.gif

 

Beating_A_Dead_Horse_by_livius.gif

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Try the Automatic Turn in bumps.Its spectacular.   REGARDS,  Bruce

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