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MA Just for fun.. Squaw, 4-16-2012

post #1 of 66
Thread Starter 

I see things I want to fix but I'll let you all give me your thoughts.

 

Steep chute (someone told me Toms Tumble) Wet spring conditions. Mid afternoon (temp was probably about 50 degrees)

 

Task, None really. Ski it, Good turn mechanics, Speed control, yada yada yada

 

..

post #2 of 66
Thread Starter 

Just to give you a point of reference for snow conditions and pitch here's another video of some other skiers in the same chute

post #3 of 66
Your turns were much more positive than those other two, David. You had a lot more flow from turn to turn than they. Looks to me like you lose sight of your inside hand, especially the right, and lose somewhat of a "strong inside half" as a result, but that skiing supported your pass. This is much improved skiing from what I remember in videos you posted a couple years ago.
post #4 of 66

It looks like the 2nd video is shot from a different spot, so it may be some kind of an illusion, but it looked to me like the other two are more in balance over their feet. Like Kneale, I'd like to see a stronger inside half. Overall, that seems like pretty good skiing. It's probably hard to have a feel for what that snow is really like without being there. Looks a lot wetter for the other people. I can't blame them for going a bit more sideways when it seems like the whole slope was moving with them, and looked a bit more frozen in your video.

post #5 of 66
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

It looks like the 2nd video is shot from a different spot, so it may be some kind of an illusion, but it looked to me like the other two are more in balance over their feet. Like Kneale, I'd like to see a stronger inside half. Overall, that seems like pretty good skiing. It's probably hard to have a feel for what that snow is really like without being there. Looks a lot wetter for the other people. I can't blame them for going a bit more sideways when it seems like the whole slope was moving with them, and looked a bit more frozen in your video.

I'd like to see a stronger inside half too. That was one of my feed back focus points and one thing I noticed in the video. You two just confirmed it.

The second video is actually maybe 10 seconds after me. Same spot, same snow, same vantage point. I was towards the end of the group so I got to watch several others go. Even after one or two went through and skied it, I knew it had to be skied with a light touch or it would break away.
post #6 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post

 I knew it had to be skied with a light touch or it would break away.

 

Well then you nailed that part.

post #7 of 66
Thread Starter 

Ok. So starting to look at the movement analysis and cause and affect for my teaching portion..

 

2 people confirm (actually 3, My examiner mentioned it in my feed back too) that I am often lazy with that right hand/and inside half)

 

I also notice in this clip, that on almost every transition from my right turn going into my left turn, I "REALLY" lighten or even pickup my left ski a bit as I move to the new outside ski. Some of this may be me really trying to "get on that new outside ski sooner" but as I think about the "sequence" of events in my head, I am thinking that this might be more a symptom of something else going on.. If I am not strong with that "inside half" as I finish a turn so that it already moving towards the apex of my next turn, I may be getting "blocked" during the transition and thus unable to move my COM "over and down" the hill as cleanly. The move to extend and balance against the new outside ski may be a little premature to my COM actually heading across the skis and towards the new turn.

 

So, will a stronger inside (especially on the right side) along with an even more progressive move from old outside ski to new outside ski, be what I'm looking for in these turns?

 

DC

post #8 of 66

I'd like to see your pole plant closer to your skis and your knuckles facing down the hill. There's a little bit of palm and blocking, and that's probably where it starts.

post #9 of 66
Old timey thought: Point the thumb downhill.

I'd work on keeping the inside hand where you can see it.

Don't know about the Pacific folks, but your teaching might be to assess and help improve your fellow candidates. Look for similar issues with them, point out your issues and maybe develop a couple exercises to address it.
post #10 of 66

nice flow down a narrow chute. (the other skiers looked like they had a different task in mind)

 

watch the tip of your uphill pole.  on the snow and uphill  (already noted)

 

also watch your downhill leg.  to my eye it looks a bit extended (locked?) in the bottom of turn / trailing the uphill foot.

this limits your shock absorbing below the waist, so you end up breaking above the waist a bit.

 

 

Its nice to see skiing in late april / may, especially this season.

post #11 of 66

interesting, ii had a different take: your turns were fast, but unsustainable, ie if the chute was a bit longer, it would have been hard to maintain the flow without picking up too much speed. The other two skiers completed their turns better, and they semed ready for whatever conditions they might encountered, while you were comitted and it woul've been hard to adjust to a patch of hard snow.

post #12 of 66

Couldn't agree with that Rod. Speed was consistent and turns were definitely completed. I feel it's just more dynamic than the other guys who are by no means skiing poorly themselves. This is a good skier demonstrating highly developed skill in difficult conditions.

post #13 of 66
Thread Starter 

Sure didn't feel like I was going very fast or picking up speed. Believe me when I say "I know what it feels like to have speed starting to get away from you"

 

Back to my earlier question.. Cause and affect? breakdown on the movement patterns?

 

Epic,

 

With a pole plant closer to the skis, are you thinking that my "breaking at the wrist" reaching further is hindering the move of COM? ie: hand/arm is in a good location, but I need to straighten the wrist a bit so it's not so much a blocking touch and more of a "pulling into the turn" touch?. Is that a good way to describe what you are seeing?

 

Kneale,

 

re:teach, we would probably be looking at the general public if possible for movement analysis including profile, strengths and weaknesses, skills to address etc. Then using the other candidates as "students" to teach and demonstrate our lesson plan. This is what I have observed skiing around when other exams are on the hill at the same time. That being said, if it's a real slow day on the mountain they could use another candidate. Maybe one in a different exam.

Unfortunately most of the rest of my group had a lot of different issues than mine so using my "issues" would have been hard to address without fixing a lot of other things first. I guess we could try to "fix the hands" but that would have been trying to fix a symptom instead of the underlying cause. That being said, the group as a whole were strong skiers.. Many however were very "singular" in their movement patterns. One turn type and try to squeeze it into many turn shapes and less upper-lower body separation. And I know I need to get even more separation in my skiing.

 

Working on it..

post #14 of 66

I am not a technique expert, but I know this terrain fairly well.  Rod-  Just as you can never analyze a run without the terrain context, the same context weighs heavily on the technique choice.  Had this been a much longer chute, the technique chosen by the skier may have been different.  It is not uncommon at Squaw to go from turns to straightline in the second half of a chute because the lines are short and the runout wide, so you can just "let it rip".  Doing that in a longer chute or above rocks would be a different story.  I felt that the choice of speed and turn style in that clip was completely appropriate for the run.  Good skiing, dchan.      

post #15 of 66
Thread Starter 
Alexzn

Can you confirm the name of that chute as "Toms Tumble". I never got a clear answer.

DC
post #16 of 66
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

Old timey thought: Point the thumb downhill.
I'd work on keeping the inside hand where you can see it.

Keeping had where I can see it. Check.. I am constantly telling my students that rolleyes.gif but for some reason it's not sinking in.. I think I was doing better with that on day two because my examiner did mention it was less of an issue on the second day.

But please clarify the thumbs down hill. Is this similar to Epic's suggestion. Keep the wrist from breaking as I drive the hand (and arm) towards the apex of the new turn.

DC
post #17 of 66

It looks like Tom's Tumble to me.  I skied it a bit on the closing weekend. 

post #18 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post

Alexzn
Can you confirm the name of that chute as "Toms Tumble". I never got a clear answer.
DC

I think this is a bit of a murky run assignment.  I always thought about Tom's Tumble as the area on the Red Dog ridge between the East Gully and the trees proper.  So if you drop in anywhere before or right after the first tree on the traverse, you are in Tom's Tumble.  I thought I saw it marked on the patrol map, but I can never find a link to it anymore. 

post #19 of 66
Thread Starter 

Thanks TC and Alexzn

post #20 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post

Keeping had where I can see it. Check.. I am constantly telling my students that rolleyes.gif but for some reason it's not sinking in.. I think I was doing better with that on day two because my examiner did mention it was less of an issue on the second day.
But please clarify the thumbs down hill. Is this similar to Epic's suggestion. Keep the wrist from breaking as I drive the hand (and arm) towards the apex of the new turn.
DC

I always think of it as pointing my pole touch thumb where I want to go. Keeps the wrist from extending to create an open palm. Makes the hand go up and over as I move into the turn (so the hand remains "in view") . I guess that makes it similar to Epic's comment.
post #21 of 66

I love the camera angle at 4 seconds, looking down from above. This gives a better perspective of how steep the run actually is. There's nothing like challenging conditions (e.g. steep, narrow, heavy snow) to stress our technique and bring out "old faithful" movements. So before we make critiques based on ideals, it helps to consider perspective.  Dave is doing the task - just ski it. The second clip shows also shows good turn mechanics except that it's for defensive, survival skiing. There's a lot be said in favor of not getting hurt. "Normal" people do not ski such runs.

 

But we do. And no matter how good we do, we know we can do better. Many of us don't ski this kind of terrain often enough to intuitively know what tactics to use, not to mention be able to instantly adapt to unforeseen developments with the best tactic. This run starts wide, narrows and then widens again. It's interesting to note that the skiers in the second clip used narrow turns above the throat to make it easy to get through, then widened their turns after they exited the narrowest part. You chose to use the width of the available terrain, to let yourself use more turn shape for controlling speed than they did. When we are using shape, there are still 3 factors we are trading off: down the fall line speed variation, skidding and how much the turn finishes out of the fall line. It's possible to carve this run, but speed would increase. It's possible to skid and reduce speed and at any point on this run. It looks like it's not possible for most skis to carve a turn in the narrowest section and control speed. I go through all this BS in an attempt to imagine intent at specific points in this run.

 

So let's take a look at some specifics:

dchan0.jpg

This is the second turn entering the chute. Angles lined up - tips, hips and shoulders. Inside hand ahead. Balanced against the outside ski. Approaching the first wall and thinking "uh oh - a little too fast". It looks like the inside ski is on a lower edge angle. This could be an illusion, but we're definitely going to be seeing 2 footed skiing coming up.

 

Feedback: More skidding at this point in the turn would avoid the coming collapse. Alternatively, finishing the turn more up the hill would give you more space for the coming left turn. For this option, you'd want to be driving higher edge angles here. The point here is tactics. If you'd started where you could see this section of the chute or had skied it a few times, you could have planned your line. Otherwise the trick is to be looking more than one turn ahead form the previous turn vs just reacting from this point.

 

 

 

dchan1.jpg

 

Yikes! Throw on the brakes! Too much. See that bent over at the waist/rounded back?  This happens in the bumps a lot. If you try to slow down more than the legs can absorb (uphill knee can't flex much more, downhill leg has to brace against the snow and can't flex or you'll lose stopping power), you must fold at the waist.  Side note, look at the uphill hand below the hips and how much weight is back. This position is the beginning of the end of an ACL for many a lesser experienced skier.

 

Feedback: Keep the hands up!

 

 

 

 

dchan2.jpg

There's a reason for the pedal hop turn. We don't really need a pedal hop turn here, but starting from such a folded over position, there's no way that inside ski is going onto the new edge above the fall line. And there's no time to waste because Dave is staring at that rock wall. So lift up that inside ski and ride that the uphill ski is relatively flat to the snow and behind the new inside ski.

 

Feedback: It's really hard to tip the skis into early edge engagement above the fall line on steep. It's ok to lift the ski when you're in a hurry and I love that you're lifting the tail. Pull the inside foot back and tip it more for increased turning power.

 

 

 

 

dchan3.jpg

You're still not facing the inside of the new turn, but you do have your weight to the inside and now you know you're going to make it. Skis close together.

 

Feedback: You're screwed at this point. Because you have not started this turn from a countered position, the only pretty way to get to the inside of the new turn is to lean laterally into it. This just isn't going to work fast enough. So turning the lower body must be done. At least you're using femur rotation from this point on.

 

 

 

 

dchan4.jpg

Phew! That was close. This is a good pic of turning into a countered position. Note that tip lead does not match countered hips and shoulders and no long leg/short leg. You're not balancing against the outside ski here. Before and after this frame the outside ski position is sloppy.And it does not get much better....

 

Feedback: Drive that old inside hand forward and guide with the old inside ski more. Stand more on the outside ski. Finish the turn more!

 

 

 

dchan4b.jpg

Ick! Remember when I talked about two footed skiing? There are a couple of very good reasons for why you had to do this. One is a very ugly rock wall dead ahead. Two is that outside ski wasn't doing much anyway. It was wobbling like crazy there.

 

Feedback: If you have to throw on the brakes here, do it with both feet.

 

 

 

dchan5.jpg

Now we're talking! What a powerful position! The cool part about this pic is that you can see that there is only one more quick turn to take before the chute opens up. Now you've got more options and lot less danger. One option you could do from this position is to let the hips and upper body travel in a straight line to where they are facing, while the legs cross underneath. You'd come out of the next turn carrying way too much speed if the chute stayed the same  width, but it's not a problem because you'd come back across below this rock outcropping on the left.

 

Feedback: I'd like to see that right hand leading a touch more here and held a little higher.

 

 

 

 

dchan6.jpg

But wait, what is this? You're starting the turn in the middle of the chute. That's good. The skis are crossing underneath. That's good. You've maintained counter. That's kind of good (we'd rather see counter develop from the last pic to this one). But now you're going to choose to bleed some speed.

 

Feedback: Flex to release. Come across vs up and over.

 

 

 

 

dchan7.jpg

There's that tiny pedal hop again. Almost a stem christie. Hey it works.

 

Feedback: It's all about tactics here. My bet is that mentally you were just thinking "whoa way too fast an exit out of the last turn" and "this is the last tough turn". I would have preferred to see :

option a) more skidding through the bottom of the previous turn,

option b) or have the previous turn finish more uphill,

option c) roll both skis into a shallower carve, going further down the hill and then ripping across into the wider section to slow down

option d) doing shallow railroad tracks from here down top the group with increasing speed.

 

 

 

 

dchan8.jpg

The only problem is that you've come out of this turn without steering into counter. No problem, you can just park and ride through the wider section to control speed now.

 

Feedback: This should be just like a lane change drill. 

 

 

 

 

Bottom line

There's no time to think through any of this stuff while you're doing it. It's got to be automatic and that only comes with practice and some level of comfort/confidence. All of the feedback I've given is easier said than done. David, you made a tough run look a lot easier than the other guys did. I know you have the skills to crank it up two more notches from this level. My bet is mileage alone will do a ton. Practice skidding more at the tops of the turns and finishing the turns more. Adding these tactics should upgrade your bag of tricks for these runs.

post #22 of 66

I just took a look at the patrol map from 2001.  If that's not Tom's Tumble, then it's the next rock over from it.  Anyway, the map doesn't give any other names for that area.

post #23 of 66

Your intensity is much better than those other two skiers.  They look like they're about to fall asleep : )

 

I'd say you're leaning uphill too much.  Some more knee angulation might help bring your upper body over your skis more.  Try to get your hips and shoulders closer to directly above your skis instead of so far up the hill from your skis. 

 

Your weight is on your uphill ski too often (partially because your leaning uphill too much).  Switch your weight to the uphill ski only at the exact moment that you pole plant so your unweighting can be driven from that ski. 


Edited by Ronin - 5/6/12 at 1:15am
post #24 of 66
Thread Starter 
where my hips are in relation to my feet may be a visual trick making it seem like I'm more back than you think.

I should get some side pictures of myself standing cuff neutral in my boots and skis to post.

I showed one of the examiners as well as a boot fitter. (I am certified as a master fitter) and several people were very surprised where my knees are in relation to my toes. Long tib/fib and Short femurs almost force me to move my hips back in order to balance over the balls of my feet.

Even with 3mm of toe lift on fairly upright boots, my knees are in front of my toes.
post #25 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post

Even with 3mm of toe lift on fairly upright boots, my knees are in front of my toes.

 

That's not necessarily going to have you in balance though. I think you are off balance to the rear a bit and that is why you have to lunge down the hill to start your turns.

post #26 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post

where my hips are in relation to my feet may be a visual trick making it seem like I'm more back than you think.
I should get some side pictures of myself standing cuff neutral in my boots and skis to post.
I showed one of the examiners as well as a boot fitter. (I am certified as a master fitter) and several people were very surprised where my knees are in relation to my toes. Long tib/fib and Short femurs almost force me to move my hips back in order to balance over the balls of my feet.
Even with 3mm of toe lift on fairly upright boots, my knees are in front of my toes.


What's the "normal" relationship of the tibia length to femur length, David? What is yours?
post #27 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn View Post

I think this is a bit of a murky run assignment.  I always thought about Tom's Tumble as the area on the Red Dog ridge between the East Gully and the trees proper.  So if you drop in anywhere before or right after the first tree on the traverse, you are in Tom's Tumble.  I thought I saw it marked on the patrol map, but I can never find a link to it anymore. 

http://www.squaw.com/the-mountain/trail-map

squaw-red-dog.jpg

The black diamond to the right of the red dog line is East Face.

 

squaw_trail_toms_maybe.png

In the circled are maybe?

post #28 of 66

For a regular pole touch I'm thinking "thumb pointing to the inside of the new turn - hips follow that line, thumb moves up to initiate movement across the skis". For a blocking pole plant, I'm thinking "touch closer to the skis, palm facing direction of travel, turn around the pole". In a narrow chute we have to turn the skis more than the skis turn us. A blocking pole plant is one way to help do this. If you had done this, you would not feel the need to lift the inside ski as much because this pulls the new inside ski back.

post #29 of 66
Thread Starter 

Using Witherall's exercises and static tests I think I am pretty well balanced. My hip socket now lines up (fore aft) with the forward edge part of my arch.

 

If I drop the toes to flat. keeping my hips over the same place (which is where everyone tells me they should be) puts me on my face. I can't stand with cuff contact and neutral without falling over forward.

post #30 of 66
Thread Starter 

TheRusty,  Thats my guess  for location.
 

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