Please MA These Short Radius Turns - Page 2

Those are some sharp edges.

Since I first saw photos of Stein Eriksen a few years ago, I've always been curious about his shoulder position. It is interesting that he is able to turn his shoulders instead of having them square to the slope.  Here's another photo illustrating his shoulder position. It's extraordinary that he is able to rotate his upper body so much while he turns. I tried it and it is very difficult. Rotating the shoulders caused a lot of unstability during my experiment. My shoulder are normally kept square and not rotated at all.

He's anticipating his new turn with a preturn of his upper body to power his pivot. You may find it uncomfortable but it's a timing move and not a stance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aero 

Since I first saw photos of Stein Eriksen a few years ago, I've always been curious about his shoulder position. It is interesting that he is able to turn his shoulders instead of having them square to the slope.  Here's another photo illustrating his shoulder position. It's extraordinary that he is able to rotate his upper body so much while he turns. I tried it and it is very difficult. Rotating the shoulders caused a lot of unstability during my experiment. My shoulder are normally kept square and not rotated at all.

 

I'd like to put aside for the moment that Stein's method of skiing, as shown in this photo, relates to straight skis better than to skiing on the skis you may be using. I'd like to not question why you want to do this, but just address your question as implied.  I assume you would like to ski like this, if only just for the fun of it on occasion.  So maybe some of the pros will jump in and talk about how to do this turn.  But first I have some questions.

Let's do pay attention to the turn radius - this is most likely not a short turn that Stein's making.  

1.  You say you rotate your shoulders to get into this position.  When you do this, what happens?  Does the rotation make you fall? Does the turn happen but you lose and catch your balance? Do the skis stall?  

2.  Have you been trying this with short turns or with medium/long turns?

3.  When in the turn do you rotate the shoulders?  Do you do it quickly//abruptly or slowly//progressively?  Do you rhythmically move into and out of this position as you link turns, or do you rotate the shoulders and hold, then rotate the shoulders and hold in the other direction?  

4.  How about stance?  When you attempt doing this, are your feet and shins as close together as Stein's are in this picture?  Notice how his outside knee is tucked behind his other knee.  Did you attempt this with your legs?  How about that bend at his hips.  Could you have been as straight as an arrow from your shoulders to your boots, or were you bent like Stein?  That bend does something significant for him at this point in his turn.  It's not just the shoulders!   

5.  Normally, with medium and long turns, do you keep your shoulders aligned with your hips, knees, and ski tips?  How about when you make short turns?

You are thinking he is rotating his shoulders to attain a position in which his shoulders are no longer square with his skis when it is actually his legs which are rotating (each in it's socket). Notice how his body bends forward at the waist (allowing him to use the upper body to balance laterally) and that this causes his upper body to be positioned to the side of his skis rather than above them and that his waist is square with the shoulders. This is an indication that this  rotation is occurring  below the waist. Its a bit less obvious watching Stein do this than with other more contemporary skiers because his feet are so close together. It makes it seem as if his lower body were turning as a unit but look at his feet. One is behind the other and they are turned with respect to his waist. This guy was and perhaps still is such an extraordinary athlete, he discovered and refined good skiing mechanics long before they were generally understood. Then he disguised them somewhat by affecting these stylistic poses, like the glued-together feet stance, and other things he did like the mambo which were more a reflection of his skill and athleticism than the fundamental skiing mechanics that he had mastered. Nowadays we would criticize this feet together stance as inhibiting the independent leg action, turn initiation and so forth that we identify with great skiing but this guy could do all that. His stylistic affectations caught the public's eye and the public definitely bought into them. Stein was a great showman but before this he was an accomplished Olympic athlete.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarryZ 

He's anticipating his new turn with a preturn of his upper body to power his pivot. You may find it uncomfortable but it's a timing move and not a stance.

No, it's a countered stance and a balancing maneuver. The body bends at the waist most easily forward and the stance allows this to be used to adjust lateral balance while maintaining a pronounced inclination of his legs and high edge angle. Its actually quite comfortable, as opposed to the sidewise bending at the waist that many are apt to attempt in emulation of this stance.

Sit in a low chair with your can firmly planted on the chair. Stretch your legs until your feet are several feet in front of the chair. Turn each leg to the right, lets say, until your feet are pointed to the right at angle to your pelvis. It will be easier if you keep each foot in position while turning the legs so that your right foot becomes ahead of the left. You'll notice your right leg is flexed somewhat while your left may be extended. Now bend forward at the waist. Presto you are in a countered stance like Stein's. If you were actually skiing and there were an outward force as well as the downward force of gravity to balance against, you could remove the chair and not fall down. This is the fundamental stance which allows us to balance while maintaining a high edge angle, while carving for example. Normally though this is not (as it is in this illustration) achieved by twisting the skis but instead the leg rotation allows the turning of the waist and upper body while the skis remain edged and tracking.

Next season, try it, you'll like it. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aero 

Since I first saw photos of Stein Eriksen a few years ago, I've always been curious about his shoulder position. It is interesting that he is able to turn his shoulders instead of having them square to the slope.  Here's another photo illustrating his shoulder position. It's extraordinary that he is able to rotate his upper body so much while he turns. I tried it and it is very difficult. Rotating the shoulders caused a lot of unstability during my experiment. My shoulder are normally kept square and not rotated at all.

 

This is Ranier Schoenfelder in 2011:

I think there are more similarities than differences.

JF

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4ster 

 

This is Ranier Schoenfelder in 2011:

 

I think there are more similarities than differences.

JF

The direction the skis are pointing is a major difference, and the direction the skiers are traveling in is different because of that.  This is not insignificant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquidFeet 

 

 

 

The direction the skis are pointing is a major difference, and the direction the skiers are traveling in is different because of that.  This is not insignificant.

The amount of angulation (and thus the degree of counter) required is largely a function of speed. The higher the speed the more closely the resultant angle of force aligns with the inclination and edge angle required to produce it, hence a lessened requirement for counter (and angulation) . Consequently racers, at the higher speeds they ski at today, do not usually exhibit the same degree of counter and angulation. Stein is also posing here for promotional purposes and so everything was exaggerated for image sake. Don't forget also that he was skiing in leather boots much lower than today's boots with much less lateral support. If you look closely you can  see that the angle of the legs to the snow is greater than the angle of the boot shafts to the snow, simply because he does not have today's tall boots which more accurately translate leg angle or inclination to edge angle. Add that requirement to the fact that he is simply showing off a possibly exaggerated stance to enhance his image and you can account for the differences. Otherwise there is not much difference in the basic mechanics of the two. The biggest difference is that Stein's feet are so ridiculously close together that his inside foot is getting in the way. It would be tough to do this and ski effectively on very hard snow. He's just showing off an image that, in fact, sold very well. A lot of people from that era bought into this image so completely that skiing with the feet together, an essentially dysfunctional maneuver, was something they all wanted to achieve. Stein was able to take this to the bank, so to speak, but, as someone pointed out, his skis moved apart in a race. 

I like the sweaters (Stein's).