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Please MA These Short Radius Turns

post #1 of 47
5/2/12 at 9:57am
Thread Starter 

A familiar face with a slightly "newer school" ( for him ;-) approach...

 

STEIN2.jpg

 

Uh oh. I heard "weight transfer", "one ski", and "heel thrust". Still, pretty smooth. Anything you do like about this?

 

Other than the threads, natch. wink.gif

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post #2 of 47
5/2/12 at 3:32pm

Perfect hair, perfect tan, perfect shades, prefect corduroy, perfect straight ski technique. Ski like Stein! 

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post #3 of 47
5/3/12 at 5:28am
Stein always skied like that on the groomers (or what served as groomers in the 1950s). Put him in a race course and the stance opened, the movements became more athletic and less poetic. When he ran the ski school at Boyne in Michigan, he used to come to surrounding towns and promote high school ski racing.

That film must be pretty old, kind of like Stein is pretty old. Haven't heard much about him returning to skiing since he ran into that kid who popped out of the woods in front of him several years back and broke his wrist, collarbone and some ribs. He was back skiing the next year, but since then???
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post #4 of 47
5/3/12 at 8:51am
Thread Starter 

I understand where TheRusty is coming from - a little too perfect overall - still, poetic seems about right. There is poetry in his motion, IMHO.

 

I wasn't trolling when I started this. Even though I know a narrow stance is not well thought of these days I thought perhaps there were other elements in his skiing that might be pointed out, and considered good. That sequence of turns from about :34-:40 - nothing to recommend there? Anything with what he's suggesting for pole plants?

 

Anyway, believe that clip in the thread starter is from maybe 10-12 years ago. Here's one from further back you may enjoy, Kneale...

 

 

This is rare footage of Stein Eriksen skiing at Boyne Mt. where he was ski school director from 1954 to 1956.

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post #5 of 47
5/3/12 at 8:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

. Anything you do like about this?

 

 

Everything! Beautiful turns. Perfect in every way.

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post #6 of 47
5/3/12 at 10:26pm

Cool old footage jc , thx.  Excellent time capsule. He looked like he was enjoying himself.

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post #7 of 47
5/5/12 at 8:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

 

I wasn't trolling when I started this. 

 

If it looks like a troll, talks like a troll and smells like a troll then it's at least just as good as one.

 

We don't ski this way any more. We don't teach this way any more. Stein's advice is appropriate for the era in which it was given, but not doing these things are some of the adjustments that we do with modern gear. You wouldn't use styling tips from a 55 Chevy to build a car today. Have you tried to ski on modern skis with your legs locked together? It doesn't work. But I still love Stein.

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post #8 of 47
5/6/12 at 7:22am
Looks likes Stein's students didn't quite get the idea, JC.

We saw lots of that stuff when Stein was working for the Kirchers at Boyne.

Years and years ago I was riding a lift at Snowmass and saw some guy setting up a course near the chair. No idea what chair, what slope. Next ride up the chair, I see him running his course. Later I see him hiking back up to the top of the course. Chairs were long and slow then, Anyway, I found my way to the top of his course, and there's Stein, wavey hair and all. I'd met him a couple times in Traverse City and at a ski show in Detroit when he was running the ski school at Boyne. Always a very gracious gentleman with a big smile.

I've got video somewhere of movies of him doing his flips at Boyne. I have to dig those out and convert them to digital.
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post #9 of 47
5/6/12 at 10:49am
Thread Starter 

Thx for sharing that story, Kneale, and I hope you do get around to finding and digitizing some of your treasure trove!  ;-)

 

I posted this clip in "Retro Memories...", but think it's worth placing here as well. A few short bits of classic Stein skiing, plus his ski/life philosophy resonates.

 

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post #10 of 47
5/10/12 at 12:07am

Not enough "O's" in Smooooth....  the man is a classic is all respects, and an example of how to continue living life to its fullest.
 

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post #11 of 47
5/11/12 at 10:55am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

If it looks like a troll, talks like a troll and smells like a troll then it's at least just as good as one.

 

We don't ski this way any more. We don't teach this way any more. Stein's advice is appropriate for the era in which it was given, but not doing these things are some of the adjustments that we do with modern gear. You wouldn't use styling tips from a 55 Chevy to build a car today. Have you tried to ski on modern skis with your legs locked together? It doesn't work. But I still love Stein.

 

To your first point, a troll typically has mischievous or perhaps malevolent intent. Mine was simply to start a discussion to help me understand some things better. You, I, and apparently many others appreciate Stein's skiing, so maybe we can work forward from that.

 

Regarding the second set I acknowledged that "a narrow stance is not well thought of these days", and I also mentioned 'a slightly "newer school" ( for him ;-) approach' - in the clip in the thread starter Stein is not skiing with the exaggerated posture and shoulder rotations that typified the classic "Stein Turn". This is Stein maybe 12-15 years ago, not 50's Stein, and he is skiing on (relatively) modern gear (albeit on the skinny side).

 

What I see in the clip when he's making quick short turns is pretty much a quiet upper body continually facing down the fall line. Do you see it differently?

 

Setting aside the "narrow stance" consideration would you agree the description below provided by Kneale in another thread otherwise applies to what we're seeing in Stein's skiing?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

Straight ski PSIA parallel turn description: Secure the inside edge of the downhill ski with a preparatory flexing of the ankles and knees to form a platform for the turn, plant the pole downhill from your toes, rise up off the platform toward downhill rapidly enough to take pressure off the skis, pivot the tips toward the intended direction of turning, change to the new edges as you reweight the skis, continue the steering that began with the pivoting.

Edited by jc-ski - 5/11/12 at 11:25am
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post #12 of 47
5/12/12 at 5:50am

jc,

 

Out of context, it was hard to tell if intent was mischievous. My comment about "as good as one" was referring to the bait nature of the post. So thanks for clarifying - that was the intent. You'll notice I won't engage in threads where the OP is not serious. We don't need to MA this clip. Stein is doing what he says he's doing. Nothing he is doing needs to be fixed because he is doing exactly what he wants to be doing. The question is "is his advice useful?" The answer, like many of the debates here on Epic, is "yes and no". It all depends on context.

 

It's not just the narrow stance. When you try to use the advice given in the clip as a whole, it's simply not useful for learning to ski on modern gear. We don't learn how to drive across the US from New York to LA by going to Maine, Miami, Anchorage, Dallas, Minnesota, then San Diego. We're much more likely to get lost that way. But once we have learned how to drive how across the states all those extra stops can provide useful additional information as additional "context".

 

I fondly remember a clinic where I was taught the Arlberg turn. Throwing your shoulders wildly was a horrible way to turn, even way back then on straight skis. But within the context of already knowing how to ski, it was a great learning experience to focus on how and why the technique worked. A couple years ago we were tasked in a clinic to ski with our legs locked together. I learned to ski this way so it was easy for me. Except that I could do it so well, the tips and the tails of my shaped skis would overlap each other. The other clinic participants marveled at how difficult it was to lock the legs together because the return on investment (ease of tipping) was more than offset by the loss of balance and loss of control.

 

Being able to control ones stance width within a half inch on command is an incredible talent and a useful skill. But it is not necessary for expert skiing. Merely attempting to control stance width is probably enough of a learning experience for most skiers, because recognition of inefficient stance width is the important skill. But this is stuff that talking about does not help much. You have to do it. So .... ski like Stein!

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post #13 of 47
5/12/12 at 2:02pm
Thread Starter 

TR, appreciate you being open to restarting the discussion! I am interested in learning to identify and understand what's going on when watching people ski, and in that context I thought an analysis of Stein's skiing in the youtube clip would be a useful exercise.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

 

It's not just the narrow stance. When you try to use the advice given in the clip as a whole, it's simply not useful for learning to ski on modern gear. 

 

Narrow stance aside, if we don't listen to but just look at "Stein 2000" skiing in the clip I'm guessing you don't have much of an issue with what's going on above the waist - upper body is pretty quiet and pointed down the hill for the most part. Shoulders dip a little during turns, but hands out front, easy wrist flick to pole plant. That's what I'm seeing. So far, so good?

 

Below the waist I see  "up" movement to unweight the skis, followed by pivoting/steering, then finally (late in the turn) hard edge engagement, then quick pole plant - repeat - which seems to more or less map to Kneale's description (above). Am I missing something? Still good?

 

I know it's not uncommon for people here to see different things when they look at someone's skiing, so let me stop there and get your feedback.

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post #14 of 47
5/12/12 at 7:02pm
That description--basically setting a platform to spring off of--was a routine generally required by the equipment of the day, JC. The narrow stance was possible because of the straightness of the skis and was considered "pretty". It was inefficient then and remains so today. Somewhere here some time back there was a discussion about Killy and a couple clips. If you looked carefully, you could see that to have a narrow stance, he took enough weight off his inside ski so it decambered. It was outside ski to outside ski movements. In the opening clip of your thread here, watch the tail of the inside ski come off the snow. Again, this is "pretty" skiing one ski at a time, allowing for the narrow stance. Stein even says, "the tail of the skis move like a fan". In other words, he's skidding the tails around.
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post #15 of 47
5/13/12 at 7:08am

JC,

 

You're not missing anything. Kneale has summed it up nicely.

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post #16 of 47
5/13/12 at 11:23pm
Thread Starter 

For the most part I do see the one-footed skiing in Stein's and Killy's skiing, although (to me)  it's subtle.

 

Otherwise, I think I'm often detecting those patterns - up/unweight, pivot/steer, engage edges, pole plant - when I watch people skiing bumps (not zipperline) and crud. 

 

So I'm trying to reconcile that with "we don't ski this way anymore." 

 

I acknowledge I am not seeing (in Crudology, for example) those patterns in a lot of cases - rather two-footed, tipping/carving, little or no up movement skiing.

 

I'll just continue to watch and try to digest what's really going on.

 

Appreciate your patience discussing this old subject matter - I'm sure it's been chewed on endlessly here before, even if not recently.  ;-)

 

 

 

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post #17 of 47
5/14/12 at 5:55am

I still see people on straight skis skiing decent straight ski technique at my little home mountain every season. Pro bumpers like straight skis. Up unweight/pivot still works well in the bumps even on shaped skis. Heck, it can work well on the groomers. That does not make it the best choice. I often see little kids power wedging our bump run. "We" don't ski this way any more because there are less tiring and more fun ways to get down the mountain. Some skiers don't have those choices, but if they are having fun while they are working up a sweat it's all good.

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post #18 of 47
5/14/12 at 6:19am
A good many long-time skiers still use the straight-ski approach on shaped skis, as do some more recent participants who learned from older friends or by using various older media. As TR says, they're just not taking full advantage of the equipment.
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post #19 of 47
5/14/12 at 11:03am
Thread Starter 
I guess I'm a bit of a romantic - I love the idea of someone prevailing using methods conventional wisdom has consigned to the dustbin of history. Like if someone were to win a clay court tennis tournament serving and volleying, or at least coming in to net frequently to finish points.
 
Speaking out of the other side of my mouth I also admire those, like you, who are willing to keep an open mind and able to continually evolve. That does not, to my experience, get easier as the years go by!  ;-)
 
Cheers.
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post #20 of 47
5/14/12 at 1:50pm
Ah, the passing years....maybe it's not an open mind as much as forgetfulness! When my mother was my age, she was an Alzheimer's vegetable.
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post #21 of 47
5/14/12 at 4:45pm
Gear design changed everything just like in golf. It is a different sport now than it was 20 years ago. Still like watching Stein and hope he is still skiing.
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post #22 of 47
5/15/12 at 6:42pm
Thread Starter 

Got permission to post a little clip showing Stein in his 70's skiing slalom gates side by side with former US Ski Team Member Heidi Voelker...

 

 

Still dynamic and beautiful skiing - Stein is a definite inspiration!

 

For anyone interested clip is from this DVD.
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post #23 of 47
6/1/12 at 9:28am

If you learned to ski before shaped skis existed and you kept your straight skis, you can ski like this.

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post #24 of 47
6/3/12 at 2:50pm

I had a student once who had taken a private lesson from Stein back in the day. The lesson, I gather, consisted of Stein taping the student's boots together with masking tape or something and then having the student follow him down the hill. The student had a wicked stem habit. so I'm guessing there were a few things in the man's skiing that Stein had overlooked. To be fair though I think most of my students who were from that era wanted to learn to ski with their feet together.

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post #25 of 47
6/5/12 at 6:41am
Probably taped the knees together. If you tape the boots together, you can't raise the inside one, which is the secret to turning with the feet close together.
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post #26 of 47
6/5/12 at 9:55am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

Probably taped the knees together.

 

Funny, that's an old southern birth control method.

 

But I digress...  ;-)

 

No comments on Stein 2000 in the gates? It is interesting to see him side by side with someone using a more modern style. He's certainly doing a lot more of this than she is...

 

STEIN4.jpg

 

Although interestingly if you look at the very beginning of the clip when they're freeskiing she's doing pretty much the same thing...

 

STEIN5.jpg

 

In general in the gates she seems to be staying glued with both feet to the snow and carving her turns, whereas Stein has a much more pronounced up move, turning his skis when they're off the snow (or at least very light) and then sinking down hard into the second half of the turn.

 

I know when they're skiing sync'd through the gates they're making pretty for the camera, not going full throttle, but still, his style in its own way seems smooth and effective.

 

Do you still see people skiing NASTAR with that older style? If so, are they competitive?

 

Anyway, in the spirit of the intent of the thread, that's what I'm seeing. You?

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post #27 of 47
6/5/12 at 3:06pm
When she's in the gates, her stance widens and she sticks to the snow like a sports car in a curve.

I thought the old southern birth control system involved a pillow between the knees.
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post #28 of 47
6/5/12 at 5:40pm

skir.jpgskirr.jpg

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post #29 of 47
6/6/12 at 9:54am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

When she's in the gates, her stance widens and she sticks to the snow like a sports car in a curve.
Perfect description! And Stein definitely has a little more "drift" going on.
I thought the old southern birth control system involved a pillow between the knees.
Whatever works.  ;-)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

skir.jpgskirr.jpg

 

Her skis seem to be wider apart, but isn't that mainly a by-product of her higher edge angles, particularly on her outside ski?

 

LeMaster likes to do this to show how the skis are in some sense *not* that far apart...

 

HIGHEDGE.jpg

 

But clearly the knees are, just as they would be if trying to stand on a steep slope.

 

And this is how she gets to that point...

 

HEIDI1.jpg


Edited by jc-ski - 6/6/12 at 10:16am
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post #30 of 47
6/9/12 at 9:51am
The feet separation ALLOWS the edge angle. Without it, she's going to skid like Stein.
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