What, no football (soccer) fans? - Page 4

Donavon only played the friendly. He wasn't dressed for the Galaxy match.

Here we go.. Brazil VS USA starting on ESPN2 now

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

Here we go.. Brazil VS USA starting on ESPN2 now

Dang I ran to the store to get some Ben and Jerry's to watch with the game (put myself on a diet and haven't had ice cream in 3 weeks) and you beat me to posting it.

I predict the US winning a shocker 3-2. 

Decent game, I don't think the score reflected how the teams stood on the field.  Brazil deserved to win the game, but both teams created a decent amount of chances.  At the end of the day chances don't count.  Considering the opponent, I wouldn't say US played bad.  They probably only lose by 1 if they are not playing Brazil on the day.

That Brazil keeper is...... unbelievable!  

Yep I agree Cali. Take away the penalty shot that should not have been a penalty and maybe one of the three goals the US should have had go in (Dempsey's outjostled by defender on Gomez header, the corner that went off the post, and the ridiculous save by the goalie) and it would have been a very close match. Brazil earned the win though. Good, fun fixture to watch. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylrwnzl 

Yep I agree Cali. Take away the penalty shot that should not have been a penalty and maybe one of the three goals the US should have had go in (Dempsey's outjostled by defender on Gomez header, the corner that went off the post, and the ridiculous save by the goalie) and it would have been a very close match. Brazil earned the win though. Good, fun fixture to watch. 

I know the rules mostly, but more often than not any ball that hits a defender's  hand or arm on the way to the goal in the box is gonna get called regardless if it was intentional/avoidable or not.  Had we been on the other end I'd certainly be screaming for a PK.  That said, I was really impressed with the offense and ball control.  Honestly, I expected better from Tim Howard though. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylrwnzl 

Yep I agree Cali. Take away the penalty shot that should not have been a penalty and maybe one of the three goals the US should have had go in (Dempsey's outjostled by defender on Gomez header, the corner that went off the post, and the ridiculous save by the goalie) and it would have been a very close match. Brazil earned the win though. Good, fun fixture to watch. 

I know the rules mostly, but more often than not any ball that hits a defender's  hand or arm on the way to the goal in the box is gonna get called regardless if it was intentional/avoidable or not.  Had we been on the other end I'd certainly be screaming for a PK.  That said, I was really impressed with the offense and ball control.  Honestly, I expected better from Tim Howard though. 

It hit his elbow and mid-body because his arm was tucked in. According to FIFA's rules a handball is only such when the individual "handles the ball deliberately". To call a penalty there must be intent. Now had he had his arm flailed out there and it hit it you could argue intent. But his arm was by his side (or the part the ball hit was) which is where a defender is supposed to keep his arm so that if it hits his hand/arm it isn't considered intentional. 

The screwed up thing about it was that no yellow card was given to him for it. If it is intentionally inhibiting a scoring chance it is a card and penalty, if incidental there is no foul and no card/penalty. Somehow the ref blew for a penalty, but didn't card him. Which means the referee likely didn't understand the rule correctly or just made a gaffe in not carding him.

Good commentary on the definition of a handball from a USSF Ref.

Like I said, I know the rules mostly.  But, that isn't a very unusual call based on my 35+ years of organized soccer watching and playing experience.  Benefit of doubt with handballs almost always goes to the offense in the box, but usually goes to the defense out on the rest of the pitch.  Similar to fighting in hockey, there are all these little nuances in soccer culture where the letter of the rule is often waived based on the norms of the game otherwise.  Officials tend to take liberties with rule interpretation and enforcement similar to the way US Supreme Justices do when they interpret the US Constitution i.e. precedents and odd interpretations.  handball by rule definition?  No way!  Gets called that way 60%-70% of the time, hell ya..

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

Like I said, I know the rules mostly.  But, that isn't a very unusual call based on my 35+ years of organized soccer watching and playing experience.  Benefit of doubt with handballs almost always goes to the offense in the box, but usually goes to the defense out on the rest of the pitch.  Similar to fighting in hockey, there are all these little nuances in soccer culture where the letter of the rule is often waived based on the norms of the game otherwise.  Officials tend to take liberties with rule interpretation and enforcement similar to the way US Supreme Justices do when they interpret the US Constitution i.e. precedents and odd interpretations.  handball by rule definition?  No way!  Gets called that way 60%-70% of the time, hell ya..

I thought it was 60/40 on that PK in favor of Brazil.  The hands came up as the shot was taken and were away from the body (not far, but away).  It seemed like he actually wanted to talk them in, and the elbow was almost against the body.  Having said all that no need for the hands to go up like that, a lot of players will just put their hands behind their back to remove any doubt (I know it's easier said than done).

I was more disappointed with the second goal than the first.  Any time you play an opponent that is superior "on paper" you need to outwork them.  In that case the least defenders could have done is stay with their guy and the person making the run.  Aside from that, there is a 99% chance that someone from the attacking team will make a run to the 1st post on a corner kick.  Again, easier said than than and mistakes happen, unfortunately for US Brazil knows how to punish them.  I don't know if I would put any of the goals on Howard, perhaps the last only because of the narrow angle.  Although if any of us had to bet on Pato vs any keep in the world in that situation we probably put our money on Pato.

Ya, horrible box out attempts on the CKs.  Also, TW commented about the lack of booking for the handball.  That's how they roll on borderline calls, more ref's discretion.  If the intent were more obvious the player gets booked too.  If it is maybe or maybe not, the kick gets allowed but player is spared being booked.  Rule books like everything else aren't and shouldn't be enforced to the letter because there are simply too many other variables and unforeseen situations to account for simply always going by the book.  This holds for everything in life. 

I missed the comment on booking, but I don't see why.  Not every handball or every PK is a bookable offense.
 

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Originally Posted by CaliSki 

I missed the comment on booking, but I don't see why.  Not every handball or every PK is a bookable offense.
 

Theoretically it is. It is not actually a foul if the ball hits your hand for instance if you had your back turned and the ball jumps to hit it. They changed the wording of the rule a few years ago to clarify that just because a ball hits a hand, does not make it a handball. That seems to be ignored by many referees.

The only way it is (according to FIFA) a foul is if you intentionally hand ball it. An intentional handball is supposed to be carded. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylrwnzl 

It hit his elbow and mid-body because his arm was tucked in. According to FIFA's rules a handball is only such when the individual "handles the ball deliberately". To call a penalty there must be intent. Now had he had his arm flailed out there and it hit it you could argue intent. But his arm was by his side (or the part the ball hit was) which is where a defender is supposed to keep his arm so that if it hits his hand/arm it isn't considered intentional. 

 

The screwed up thing about it was that no yellow card was given to him for it. If it is intentionally inhibiting a scoring chance it is a card and penalty, if incidental there is no foul and no card/penalty. Somehow the ref blew for a penalty, but didn't card him. Which means the referee likely didn't understand the rule correctly or just made a gaffe in not carding him.

 

Good commentary on the definition of a handball from a USSF Ref.

That is good, I've read it before and wanted to print and distribute to sidelines (and refs). It's simple if you remember hand to ball = foul, ball to hand = no foul. Last year a ref called a PK in a rainy game when, as one of my daughter's teammates was going to kick the ball, she slipped on the wet field and fell on the ball. Highly frustrating. (Although I guess technically it was hand to ball, lol)

The hand to ball or ball to hand isn't all that black and white IMO.  For example, if the last defender is in front of goal, an opponent winds up to shoot, but the defender spreads his/her arms as wide as possible before the shot is taken.  If the ball hits the hand does it mean no PK?  No movement was ever made to play the ball, so the ball pretty much hit the hand....

Not every PK is a card (Intentional Handballs or PKs aren't mentioned under the cautionable offenses or sendoffs), now was Gouch's a scoring chance, that's at ref's discretion.  This is kind of the beauty of the game, or the ugliness of it depending on how you look at it.  Otherwise what would we be talking about right now :).  I watched the game w/ my brother and there was no doubt in his mind that it was a PK.  He couldn't believe how the commentators could even remotely argue against it.  I personally thought it was a PK, but could see the arguments against it (thought it to be borderline, leaning more towards PK).
 

Also, if a defender "accidentally" slips and falls on the ball in the box coincidentally deflecting it with their hand... deflecting a shot that was otherwise on goal from close range, or knocking the ball out of the range of an attacker that had a good opportunity to shoot a PK will likely be awarded..

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

Also, if a defender "accidentally" slips and falls on the ball in the box coincidentally deflecting it with their hand... deflecting a shot that was otherwise on goal from close range, or knocking the ball out of the range of an attacker that had a good opportunity to shoot a PK will likely be awarded..

A guy I used to play with (who was also a skier) used to say "accidental handball to defender's advantage" a lot.  This obviously isn't in the laws of the game, but does make sense and would fit your scenario.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliSki 

The hand to ball or ball to hand isn't all that black and white IMO.  For example, if the last defender is in front of goal, an opponent winds up to shoot, but the defender spreads his/her arms as wide as possible before the shot is taken.  If the ball hits the hand does it mean no PK?  No movement was ever made to play the ball, so the ball pretty much hit the hand....

 

Not every PK is a card (Intentional Handballs or PKs aren't mentioned under the cautionable offenses or sendoffs), now was Gouch's a scoring chance, that's at ref's discretion.  This is kind of the beauty of the game, or the ugliness of it depending on how you look at it.  Otherwise what would we be talking about right now :).  I watched the game w/ my brother and there was no doubt in his mind that it was a PK.  He couldn't believe how the commentators could even remotely argue against it.  I personally thought it was a PK, but could see the arguments against it (thought it to be borderline, leaning more towards PK).
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

Also, if a defender "accidentally" slips and falls on the ball in the box coincidentally deflecting it with their hand... deflecting a shot that was otherwise on goal from close range, or knocking the ball out of the range of an attacker that had a good opportunity to shoot a PK will likely be awarded..

The point you are raising comes down to form though. If it had hit a flailing arm or he fell putting himself in an abnormal position I think you could somewhat argue it. But in this case he kept his arm tucked against his body where it was supposed to be and even then it hit his upper arm against his body, not a hand or wrist that was out in space. 

My understanding if the actual rule  is that the arm and hand become part of the body when tucked flush against it and shouldn't count as a handball..
 

But...  In the box, even if the defender really appears to be trying to get out of the way, if the ball hits their hand or arm causing it to divert off an on goal path the ref's usually going to blow the whistle regardless of how some interpret the rule book or what it says.   Seen it over and over for dozens of years.  That's just how they usually call that. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

My understanding if the actual rule  is that the arm and hand become part of the body when tucked flush against it and shouldn't count as a handball..
 

But...  In the box, even if the defender really appears to be trying to get out of the way, if the ball hits their hand or arm causing it to divert off an on goal path the ref's usually going to blow the whistle regardless of how some interpret the rule book or what it says.   Seen it over and over for dozens of years.  That's just how they usually call that. 

And I choose to complain about it rather than just accept that as the norm. FIFA wouldn't have updated the rule if they didn't think it was a relevant concern. 

It doesn't even matter what the rule is or how they rule on it... there will always be thousands of folks wearing one color screaming about it and thousands of folks wearing the other color shirt cheering it.  The book can't exactly say "if the hand/arm touch in the box costs the offense a goal bla bla bla..."  But, that is really what the refs will always interpret it to mean.  Disengage book, use brain when book is stupid.

Enjoyed watching England defeat Belgium today.  Wishing a free channel was showing Argentina VS Ecuador at the moment though.  Looks like Argentina has it well in hand 3-0 at 42'

Just realized Euro 2012 will overlap with my trip to England. Too bad the France v England match is the night I'm flying in, would have loved to been in the UK for that. Hopefully will get to go to a pub and get the authentic experience of watching a footy match in a pub. 

You should try to connect with Wear The Fox Hat.  He'd be able to give you the best advice on what's happening and where to go.

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Originally Posted by crgildart 

You should try to connect with Wear The Fox Hat.  He'd be able to give you the best advice on what's happening and where to go.

Perhaps. Pretty much have everything squared away at this point. Other than the 3 days in Edinburgh staying with friends and going out with them the whole time. 

Someday I'd like to go to Liverpool and check out this place, or whatever is there on Gildart Street when I get there..

USA VS Canada right now..

Saw this the other day...

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

Great match. could have gone either way for sure, especially with that goal called back on the questionable off sides flag.  Feel for that guy that hit the post on the last shot of his career (maybe he'll come back instead?).

As a hard core Totenham fan i am still gutted at missing out on CL next year - especially to the chavs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

Enjoyed watching England defeat Belgium today.  Wishing a free channel was showing Argentina VS Ecuador at the moment though.  Looks like Argentina has it well in hand 3-0 at 42'

They keep losing key players every game. Still, good to see clean sheets. Looks like they are taking a page from Chelsea's book, hardly anything in the way of quality possession.