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Serious thoughts ...

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
Hello everyone.

Just wanted to canvass some real American opinion on this fellow Bush Jr. All we hear about over here in the UK (or certainly all I've picked up on) revolves around two policies of his:

a) to try and speed up global warming / the melting of the icecap / the end of the world by any other environmental catastrophe; and

b) to bring the cold war kicking and screaming back into life.

Now, I'm sure he has is reasons for pulling out of Kyoto, and for re-establishing such a controversial defense system (lets call it the bastard offspring of Starwars), but I don't get it. In the election build up they showed a programme here including a clip of a speech made by Bush to industry leaders somewhere in which he promised to put their interests above those of future generations of Americans. Those were his words?! How can you vote for this man? Let's not forget that if it were only the future generations of Americans it wouldn't be so serious, but the future of America affects the future of the world. That's my future and my offspring!!!!

So I really would be very interested to know if any of you, who are closer to the actual goings-on of the Bush administration, think of all this.

To be perfectly honest, I'm very scared of him. I think he's unreliable and a little bit potty.



Pass me a bottle, Mr Jones...
post #2 of 24
I think pres's are figureheads more than anything and the real decision-makers are doing other things.

I think it was Noam Chomsky who said only 20% of the population is active in the country's decisions, so you only have to convice 20% to do what you want. The other 80% just have to be distracted. I'd say they are doing a pretty good job of that.

The trick is to figure out what they are doing behind the scenes.
post #3 of 24
The 2 policies stated above are merely symptoms or probable outcomes of his one true policy. Make wads of cash for the large corporations that put him in office. Don’t restrict emissions, cuts into the bottom line to reconfigure plants. Huge new weapons race is a win/win for the "military industrial complex" (could not resist as I had not heard that phrase in such a long time.)

Money for his cronies, consequences be damned. Anything "behind the scenes" I am missing?
post #4 of 24
Thread Starter 
Matt, that's pretty much the info we get over here. Guess it's fairly accurate then...

As a side issue, are you embarassed by him? Seriously, (and here comes a sweeping generalisation - sorry all you European Bush fans!) the attitude in Europe is largely the same as you'd have towards an aging, slightly senile old grandparent. You know, he's harmless enough but you just have a concern that one day he's going to get hold of the shotgun...

The thing about him pleasing the big corps seems to be true. But how can that have got him into office? Surely the US system isn't so corrupt that the larger organisationscan simply buy the votes? Is it? Or did he promise all sorts of things but is now reneging? What's his address? I'll write to him and sort him out.

Here's to democracy.



Pass me a bottle, Mr Jones...
post #5 of 24
Beyond embarrassing.
post #6 of 24
post #7 of 24
Come on, everyone is busy blaming Dubya when they don't understand who's really running the country. Dubya is merely a mime's ventriloquist's with Dick Cheney's hand up his back. Cheney and his cronies are setting our energy direction, environmental direction, and paranoid foreign policy.

Cheney & company are true believers in the trickle down theory (or trickle on theory) and will do whatever is necessary to promote big business. Luckily the Democrats now control the Senate or the Bush administration would be destroying years and years of policies and laws set up to protect the environment. Still, it is going to be nasty battle as Cheney & company try to sidestep any laws and policies they don't like in order to carry out their agenda.

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[This message has been edited by Rio (edited August 07, 2001).]</FONT>
post #8 of 24
I am APPALLED with GW. He's an idiot figurehead. The other "choice" is not much better. The issue that global warming is from the actions of humanity or not is beside the point... it IS happening, at least in the short term. And it's affecting us ALL. Can we do anything about it? Yea, if we actually make an informed decision and MOVE on it. Won't happen till enough of us start to actually suffer the consequences.

"Star wars" technology scares other governments, and brings back the idea of an arms race. But there are reasons beyond the atmosphere to develop this technology... Space junk and asteroids are more of a long term threat than North Korea or even China...
But shooting down a bullet with a bullet is quite "in your face" to other governments.

How can we get real governing happening when it's all about winning a popularity contest via contributions? When the hell are we going to get politicians (or enough of them, there are a few) that are capable of understanding the SCIENCES enough to have a real picture of what's going on, and can make real, informed decisions?

I won't even go into the "holier than thou" religious right attitudes, they make me sick to my stomach. Self-righteous religion has caused so much suffering in this world.

Popular decisions are not the right ones many times, and it takes courage to stand up. A politico will not be re-elected then, because the constituents react emotionally to the issues, as opposed to informed reality.

I watch C-Span from time to time, to figure out what's going on behind the scenes. The folks that govern us do NOT have a clue, and base their decisions on "electable politics" and not on true, informed, and MORAL descisions. It's so sad. I watch the House of Lords a bit sometimes as well, when it's aired here. As well as some other countries proceedings, notably Russia the past few years... Putin is a freakin' THUG!

This country started out as a very principled system, but it's messed up complety by looters and thugs, all dancing around the (short term) bottom line. It's disgusting, but it's how most corporations are run over here... quarterly profits, company is for the Shareholders, not the employees, or heaven forbid, and the customers that actually spend the money.

BTW, I have been voting "alternative" for years, and I am a registered Libertarian.
Business, government, and life can be run on a moral profit based incentive. Most good small businesses get it, or they would not stay in business!

Principle AND profit can go hand in hand. It may take a little longer, but it's MORAL.

Where's Deming (real) or Gault (fiction) when ya need 'em? Objective reality folks, puuuulease! Neither of these two would "make it" as politicians in our present system.

BTW, The infamous Jesse Ventura (MN Governor) used to be my mayor, and he is one who "gets it". He's a little "over the top", but he will stand up for principle and make a LOUD noise. Much better than Perot ever was.

My $2.00 worth... Yawn if ya want to, but it's NOT boring to me...

Visit me here >>>SnoKarver

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[This message has been edited by SnoKarver (edited August 07, 2001).]</FONT>
post #9 of 24
Can someone explain to me how American politics, or any of the other lobby related topics that have appeared on this board are
season sports. If I wanted to catch up on world events I'd read the news paper.
post #10 of 24
If enough folks here want to talk about something, I guess it's a topic. I think Johnny Boy saw the opportunity to discuss some things that bug him, and he feels that he has some (ski) buddies over the pond here.

I think it's neat that Johnny Boy brought it up. International flavour. I enjoy these topics when I go to dinner with students.

Don't take part in the discussion, if you don't want to. I talk about this stuff with friends on the lift sometimes... If this is an innapropriate topic for this forum, I welcome any and all to visit me at, and we can take it from there....

AC? What do you think? It's your place and space, isn't it?

What, where, and HOW are we gonna ski/snowboard/skiboard if all our snow melts to water, and nobody has the extra time and $$$ to enjoy it, eh? There is a broad connection there, I hope.

Visit me here &gt;&gt;&gt;SnoKarver
post #11 of 24
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[This message has been edited by ti (edited August 07, 2001).]</FONT>
post #12 of 24
I might not be yawning if you guys were bringing something new to the table. This is just the same old shite. I thought the discussion on the powder board
, despite its title, was much more interesting.
post #13 of 24
Not suprised Gonzo, not at ALL...

Your posts have quite a "sense of life". AttaBoy! Really!

Visit me here &gt;&gt;&gt;SnoKarver
post #14 of 24
Hey SnoKarver,

I'd be interested in your review of the Lords. I sometimes have caught a bit of PM's questiontime (though William Hague was like a yipping dog sometimes; no wonder why the Tories have a mess -- of course, they forgot what century it is, too). Are the Lords, in your opinion, just oblivious enough of popularity to be "real" or were they way out in space???


Dante non ha mai immaginato questo cerchio dell'inferno!
post #15 of 24
Thread Starter 
Whoa! Quite a response.

For all of you who felt this is an inapprpriate discussion topic for this forum, I do apologise for offending your hard core ski only sensibilities. Thig is, I don't have that many American pals with whom to discuss this over here, you know what I mean? This is about the only avenue I have to sample what you guys think and believe. I hate to say it, but if this bores you, don't read it. Sorry about the tired adage. Also, I'm bored at work and needed something to think about.

Anyway, I'd also like to thank all those who have contributed positively. Interested to hear what you thought about Hague, LisaKaz. Over here we thought of him as a bit of a sniveller, but about the most talented debater around. If he had anydecent policies, he'd be the PM for a long time.

Anyway, that's even further off topic. Back to Bush and Cheney. What do they want? What's their agenda in all this? Presumably some personal gain, political and financial, but don't you think they're being a bit blatant in how they're doing it? To me, it seems very obvious that they don't really know what's going on, but then as I said wew only really get the bad news, so I guess there could be more to it.

I should note for the sake of my transatlantic reputation that I am not boring. Politics doesn't really grab me. I'm 24 for Christ's sake. I like drinking too much, swearing, cheating the tax systems, staring openly at young women etc etc. Just so's you know.



Pass me a bottle, Mr Jones...
post #16 of 24
Bloody Hell, Gonz "who is John Galt" was my tag line on another forum! Knew there was a reason I liked you!
post #17 of 24
Well, that figures, you too Robin? Heh Heh.

Visit me here &gt;&gt;&gt;SnoKarver
post #18 of 24
House of Lords is quite interesting, but it's still a lot of debate to get something accomplished. Lot of tradition in that political body, eh? William Hague reminds me of a very highbrow version of Python's argument clinic. Where's the beef?

Meetings, dissertations, arguments are all well and good, but when it's only about the process, and not results... well it get's old. I hate meetings just for the sake of meetings. Would rather dig a useful ditch.

Obviously, I don't mind particpitating in debate myself, but I'll opt out when it gets silly. But this is not a silly one at all.

Johnny boy, I used to feel the same way about politics myself, but became quite active locally (in MN) in my late 20's. And yea, I think it's great that you want to talk "international". Very cool. Glad to see you're paying attention. What do you do for work?

Bush and Cheney are pretty blatant about it, but it's business as usual. Politics is a business here, and it's becoming a lot like being on stage and acting or something, because it's not about the content. It's about popularity with those with the purse strings. Follow the money.

Won't change much either, because the US way of business, etc. is more about selling, and moving money around, than it is about producing anything useful, i.e. the "hollow company" syndrome. Just like Dilbert, only a few get anything done, everyone else fakes it.

Things are going to get pretty wild if the economy goes into the dumper. I don't think we'll quite get to a full on recession, but a lot of the economy has been built on a speculative house of cards, and the country (world) is looking for the next big thing. And there may not be one for a while.

So, maybe humanity needs to get back to the basics of reality and living a bit more simply.

BTW I have a map of Glenshee, from a student of mine

Visit me here &gt;&gt;&gt;SnoKarver
post #19 of 24
Who elected Bush? Folks who can afford to bring their families to a destination ski resorts and take ski lessons.

Think about the cost of a week at Vail, Breck, or Aspen. It's not autoworkers kids that we are teaching!

An average American family couldn't buy lunch at a Colorado resort.
post #20 of 24
Oh, believe me, I wouldn't bite the hand that feeds me, no way Rusty...

However, all the money that is spent on politics as usual could be put to better use elsewhere... Campaign reforms are needed, etc. I like wealthy folks who create, because they actually produce more $.

The $ is a very moral thing, when done right.

Visit me here >>>SnoKarver

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[This message has been edited by SnoKarver (edited August 08, 2001).]</FONT>
post #21 of 24
Thread Starter 

I have just completed the academic stage of my legal training. I am moving to London this Saturday to start a year's legal practice course before starting next September as a solicitor with Linklaters & Alliance in what is arrogantly known as "the City". (aside - one of my honours courses was American Constitutional Law)

It is true that our political system allows for a lot of paper shuffling, circular discussions, pointless debates etc, but as you pointed out, there's a lot of tradition involved. I think a lot of it is getting better and decisions are coming thicker and faster now.

Tony Blair is OK but the American President (whoever it may be from time to time) will always be the daddy and Blair will always be the bitch. That is the way of the world. The UK PM is scared to lose the US as a political ally - they carry too much clout and the PM likes to think that the 2 administrations have similar agendas and together can get anything done. Which is a shame because I think Blair should take Bush in hand and teach him a thing or two about the world.

OK, that's my rant over and done with.

Thanks for the input

post #22 of 24
Most 12 year olds know more about the world than GW. This is an individual that is so self absorbed in his own surroundings that he could not think of the name of the leader of the US's largest trading partner.
post #23 of 24
Bush is nothing but a spoiled playboy who is fairly clueless as to what is going on around him.
post #24 of 24
Hey JB,

You'll almost be in my neck o' the woods. Have been doing a little bit of work at the London Metropolitan Archives, which is off Farringdon Road (I think it's Rd), though I walk back to my lodgings via Russell Square.

I really don't think "Lady" (ahem) Thatcher was Reagan's lap dog. I mean, she sure ain't that for her hubby and Ronnie was asleep at the switch anyway. Blair might be in the pocket of the City coterie who see profit in configuring Britain as the "51st state". The funny thing is, that (to them) is the logic of the free market and yet the big lovers of the free market (the Tories) can't give up the pound out of loyality to their sense of British identity, let alone become the junior associate of America. Whadda dilemma! Heh, heh, heh -- sure is funny to watch. This is essentially why a rapid defender of Englishness like Hague becomes seen as irrelevant and why the Tories are in a continued big mess if they continue with this policy: they need to reinvent themselves or Britain to accomodate both sides (the capitalism and the sense of authentic identity). Dem be my serious thoughts -- and you didn't even have to pay tuition.


Dante non ha mai immaginato questo cerchio dell'inferno!
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