What's the objective of skiing? - Page 3

Ghost, crashing is fun? I must admit I don't know anyone else who would admit setting that as an objective for their ski day. Please tell me you don't do that in your car as well.

It's definitely NOT the objective.  In fact I try to avoid crashing, but I have to admit, that even during a crash, when I'm very busy doing what I can to minimize the damage, the experience is fun, right until the realization that I f**k*d up!, which usually happens right after I do a self-diagnosis preliminary first aid check and just a minute or two before the pain sets in.  I much prefer near-crashes (successful recoveries with no injuries) to crashes, and get an even bigger joy from being on the edge, but not over it.  I've crashed a motorcycle a couple of times, but have not crashed a car in over 40 years, and that was only a minor fender bender (it was an untidy sort of ditch anyway, what with hydro poles all over the place)

Do good skiers have more fun?  Or is it the other way around.  People who really enjoy skiing tend to get better at it over time?

Actually, I think it might be the slope that matters -- the periods when we are improving rapidly are best (at any sport).  Being stuck on a plateau can be frustrating and reduce the joy.  (At least for the goal-oriented sub-population among us.)

^ it's a bit of both.

The joy of discovery is one facet of the enjoyment, whether it's discovery of new places, new terrain, new technique, new discipline (e.g.  moguls, park, racing, free style, backside, back country touring, telemark, etc) or self-discovery.

A friend posted this on Facebook, thought it was relevant:

JF

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro 

Ghost, crashing is fun? I must admit I don't know anyone else who would admit setting that as an objective for their ski day. Please tell me you don't do that in your car as well.

If you ain't crashing you ain't pushing hard enough   (except in my street car )

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldschoolskier 

 

 

If you ain't crashing you ain't pushing hard enough   (except in my street car )

Crashing is so over rated. Wanna ski well?  Try not crashing.

I happened to be at a seminar where the speaker spoke about the zone. I remember vividly how he pointed out that 100% is all we can give and all the talk about 105% is actually setting you up for failure since it's not possible. In fact, he spoke about 98% effort as where the zone begins. The transcendental state of being one with the moment has also been associated with the zone. In my world this means pushing myself to improve but not in a linear way. Personal bests often don't feel like they are occurring, it's only when we stop that we realize what just happened. So plateaus need to be thought of as part of the process. Eventually we become very capable of consistently performing at the threshold of the zone and on occasion we surprise ourselves with a personal best performance. That, IMO is why those moments are so magical and a bit like quicksilver. Experiencing what it feels like to actually hold that quicksilver, even if it's only briefly, is why I ski. Making that an objective is often why it eludes so many.

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro 

I happened to be at a seminar where the speaker spoke about the zone. I remember vividly how he pointed out that 100% is all we can give and all the talk about 105% is actually setting you up for failure since it's not possible. In fact, he spoke about 98% effort as where the zone begins. The transcendental state of being one with the moment has also been associated with the zone. In my world this means pushing myself to improve but not in a linear way. Personal bests often don't feel like they are occurring, it's only when we stop that we realize what just happened. So plateaus need to be thought of as part of the process. Eventually we become very capable of consistently performing at the threshold of the zone and on occasion we surprise ourselves with a personal best performance. That, IMO is why those moments are so magical and a bit like quicksilver. Experiencing what it feels like to actually hold that quicksilver, even if it's only briefly, is why I ski. Making that an objective is often why it eludes so many.

 

 

In other words, the objective should be "Just go ski!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarryZ 

Crashing is so over rated. Wanna ski well?  Try not crashing.

To achieve the next level, one has to step over the limits (hopefully in small steps), and when one does, on occasion one crashes, bound to happen sooner but preferably a lot later .

I live by; is it crazy or is it stupid.  Crazy, I know the limit and intentionally exceed it to improve the skill set or stupid, do I exceed it because I don't know or care where that limit actual is and step well beyond it?

I rarely crash, if it happens I've had a momentary brain lapse (I'm old enough to blame the age thing) and I do enjoy pushing the limits to achieve the next level.  Why? Because I can

Time and place.  Crazy is pushing the limits at a time and place where there is a strong possibility of ending up dead for overstepping them. You don't want to overstep the limits where missing a turn will get you torn to pieces in the trees, unless you have a death wish.  Even falling on a plain ordinary groomed run at 60 mph can lead to much unpleasantness.  I recommend against crashing.  It's usually possible to overstep the limit slightly and then recover without crashing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro 

I happened to be at a seminar where the speaker spoke about the zone. I remember vividly how he pointed out that 100% is all we can give and all the talk about 105% is actually setting you up for failure since it's not possible. In fact, he spoke about 98% effort as where the zone begins. The transcendental state of being one with the moment has also been associated with the zone. In my world this means pushing myself to improve but not in a linear way. Personal bests often don't feel like they are occurring, it's only when we stop that we realize what just happened. So plateaus need to be thought of as part of the process. Eventually we become very capable of consistently performing at the threshold of the zone and on occasion we surprise ourselves with a personal best performance. That, IMO is why those moments are so magical and a bit like quicksilver. Experiencing what it feels like to actually hold that quicksilver, even if it's only briefly, is why I ski. Making that an objective is often why it eludes so many.

 

 

With regards to giving 100%.

Remember the movie True Grit?  The horse at the end gave 100%.  Worked out great for Mattie Ross.  Not so good for the horse.  Maybe the horse gave 98% for too long.  When you have 100% of something, it implies there is nothing left as in the case of the horse.

It's just another math problem.  You can even take it to - person A's 98% being equivalent to person B's 105% as A's 98% is unachievable by B.

When stuck on a plateau, you can still be giving 98%.  It might not feel like it.  It's just that the plateau is longer than you thought.

Ken

Hi Ghost,

That's the definition of stupid

Crazy is just what other people think you are doing (that is well beyond their ability). IE some of the lines the extremely good skiers are doing in this group. They are just running at or slight above their limit, and occasionally they crash, but again they know the limits, the risks and have ensured the best possible outcome in the worst case.

Stupid exactly as you described, doing this without having any foresight, grasp of limits, prevention or outcome just plain stupid.

No argument with not crashing is the best outcome in anything, but will happen, ideally controlled, but a lesson is learned.

Hopefully the my statement which is intended with humor is taken as such .

What's the objective of skiing? For me it is the following.

Breck on Monday, Employee Day. M and I toured up Pioneer and over to Peak 6 trees. The turns were nice and easy. The scenery 'the usual'.

Its all about the sights, the sounds (employee day was the loudest I've ever heard the ski area with all the whooping and hollering), the companionship, the snow. The sound of the snow was incredible and indescribable, but I'll try. It sounded like a continuous rain stick but high pitched, a sort of white noise. It was effortless to ski.
 

Yesterday at Breck was also spectacular. I happened to meet a neighbor at the bus stop, but the schedule had just changed so rather than wait a half hour for the next bus, he drove us to the gondola; he lives 100 feet from the bus stop. Getting off the gondola, I saw a racing friend and she saw another person she knew, so we all joined up to take some runs. We skied past CJ and T, two icons of Breck out for their daily ski. The two of those guys are on the mountain practically every day.

By 9:00 am, the lower mountain had a thin layer of soft snow which just got better. We headed for the upper mountain at about 10 and had great spring conditions with high winds and lots of sun. The pictures aren't so good (I'm being challenged by new phone's camera).

Top of Peak 8. The rope line separating Lake Chutes from the upper Imperial Bowl was superb.

We had thought we'd go out the gate to Peak 6 today, but the lift served skiing was far too good to bother. We skied long and hard, working through some foot cramps M came up with later in the day; water, emergen-C and time sitting helped considerably. The amount of fresh tracks we got was unbelievable. It was busier on employee day than yesterday.

Somedays it is about this.

Somedays it is this.

Or this.

All in all, it is about the experience, which will be different for everyone. It is whatever you want it to be.

The important thing is that you end up with a smile on your face.

MR, I am filled with envy, but the next best thing to being there and enjoying it in person is being able to read about it and see it through your eyes!

You said it all, and more! Thx for sharing!

Quote:

Originally Posted by L&AirC 

 

 

With regards to giving 100%.

 

Remember the movie True Grit?  The horse at the end gave 100%.  Worked out great for Mattie Ross.  Not so good for the horse.  Maybe the horse gave 98% for too long.  When you have 100% of something, it implies there is nothing left as in the case of the horse.

 

It's just another math problem.  You can even take it to - person A's 98% being equivalent to person B's 105% as A's 98% is unachievable by B.

 

When stuck on a plateau, you can still be giving 98%.  It might not feel like it.  It's just that the plateau is longer than you thought.

 

Ken

 

So Ken, Here's a thought...

...that percentage is not relative to others, nor is it measurable against others. It also doesn't include killing yourself. Raising your game to a new level and exploring the nuances of performances at that higher level is a plateau but that doesn't mean the experiential learning stops. Lateral learning at it's best is non linear.

Eventually your capacity for work increases along with your talent level and what that means is the 98% mark changes. That IMO is the crux of what Nolo is suggesting, learning improves the skier and that new found capacity offers us more ways and more opportunities to experience transcendental moments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by L&AirC 

 

 

With regards to giving 100%.

 

Remember the movie True Grit?  The horse at the end gave 100%.  Worked out great for Mattie Ross.  Not so good for the horse.  Maybe the horse gave 98% for too long.  When you have 100% of something, it implies there is nothing left as in the case of the horse.

 

It's just another math problem.  You can even take it to - person A's 98% being equivalent to person B's 105% as A's 98% is unachievable by B.

 

When stuck on a plateau, you can still be giving 98%.  It might not feel like it.  It's just that the plateau is longer than you thought.

 

Ken

 

So Ken, Here's a thought...

...that percentage is not relative to others, nor is it measurable against others. It also doesn't include killing yourself. Raising your game to a new level and exploring the nuances of performances at that higher level is a plateau but that doesn't mean the experiential learning stops. Lateral learning at it's best is non linear.

Eventually your capacity for work increases along with your talent level and what that means is the 98% mark changes. That IMO is the crux of what Nolo is suggesting, learning improves the skier and that new found capacity offers us more ways and more opportunities to experience transcendental moments.

 

JASP,

I was referring to when others say "I need you to give 110%."  I've always rolled my eyes at this.  Heard it a lot in the Marines (not known for math skills ). 

I do think people can give 100% of their "focus" for quite some time, but that too will eventually exhaust them and is probably closer to what this thread is about.  For me, mental exhaustion has always lasted longer the physical.

It's just that the statement has always annoyed me.

I agree that will your improvements, your 98% will include more abilities.

I tend to believe I can set up activities where a student might experience an epiphanal learning spurt but most of the time exploring those so called plateaus is where and when those epiphanies spontaneously occur. That's why (IMO) rote learning and task / command teaching activities often fail to produce epiphanies. They work well to introduce ideas but the real learning happens when the student begins to express those concepts through their actions. It's also when ownership of those movements occurs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by L&AirC 

 

 

JASP,

I was referring to when others say "I need you to give 110%."  I've always rolled my eyes at this.  

 

I rolled my eyes when I was advised that my golf swing should be at 80%. 80% is more powerful than 100% !!???

Aside from the math issues and people saying it just because it's popular, I often translate this kind of request into the concepts of stretch goals and engineering ratings.

It's a known management concept that employees will deliver more simply if they are asked to. The concept here is to not stop trying just because you've met the goal.  The other part of true stretch goals is that they require you to do things differently (e.g. tools, tactics, techniques). So think of 110% as a request to do things differently vs a request to just try harder.

To continue , so many things in today's society are "safety" rated where there's plenty of safety cushion to go beyond 100%. I will always remember my Indian neighbor asking me how I could drive my limited to a 15 degree slope lawn tractor up my 30 degree front yard. And finally, I would be remiss without a spinal tap reference.

The back story behind this is that Marshall really meant something when they introduced 11. At 10 the sound was clean. At 11 there was some distortion that added a desirable quality to the sound (at least for some, eh?).

Pleasure, pure and simple.

You mean this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jc-ski 

You mean this?

I have never seen that flick, found a few more clips that were filmed right in my neighborhood...  Brings back some good memories, thanks!

Winter a go go LOL, there is a burger place up the street called Burgers a go go.

JF

I'm going to copy and paste something I wrote on another thread because it's relevant here.  I am only plagiarizing myself, and with a broken wrist, it's easier than re-typing something similar. 

The meaning (or objective) of skiing to me:

Here is the way I see it. I see two reasons to ski. One is related to our animal needs. Animals display dominance in many ways: by fighting, or dancing, or singing... some fresh water dolphins lift rocks to show dexterity, bison throw up dust, there's a bird that collects blue objects to attract a mate. It's natural to want to be the best at something. As humans we have a lot of activities to choose from. Skiing is a great and challenging sport. It's natural to be attracted to the accomplishment of being good at it. The other reason to ski is more human than that. We want to enjoy life. Skiing helps with that. What is the point of getting good at anything if you don't enjoy being here regardless of accomplishments? Skiing won't heal the sick or anything, but what is the point in healing the sick if the sick person you heal won't enjoy life or want to be here whether they're sick or not? I think that enjoying life, in general, and helping others to do so is the most important thing in life because there's little point to doing anything if you're dealing with an existence that doesn't want to be in existence. Skiing is a great way to enjoy life.

The two reasons to ski are connected. The better you are at skiing the more you can enjoy it, usually.

So the objective is the same as the meaning behind it to me... to be good at it and to help you enjoy life. 

The Objectives of Skiing.   My objectives change sometimes ten times a day.

The early years in the yikes zone survival was an objective and this could alternate from stopping crisis to turning crisis in the matter or a few yards.  Above all though I had fun, took a lot of spills and was frustrated often but kept on smiling.

Then I raced and speed became an objective and maybe more importantly I learned how to achieve speed and still finish a race.  This 20 yr period also introduced me to some really life long friends. Raced hundreds of times and only had 3 races where I was in the Zone; one slalom lat Mammoth, one Super G at Mammoth and one Super G at Northstar.  My objective were met and I moved on from racing.

In my later years my objective was to become an instructor and did this for 5 years until I became completely fatigued with too much technique and not enough fun.  Always loved to teach but soured on Silver Mt's ski school.  When I moved to IDAHO I didnot know one single person in the the entire State and my objective was to meet some people and ski.

I left the ski school and joined up with Van and John and began my latest objective.  Learning how to ski off piste and to learn to ski powder.  We ski probably 85% off piste now and have been Cat and Heli Skiing in BC.  A few years ago I would have never gone Heli Skiing, no way was I good enough.  Had a great Heli trip this year and met my objective and even surpassed the objective by Van and I being the best skiers on our Helicopter.  This was a real eye opener for me but a very rewarding one.

OBJECTIVES CHANGE continuously and that is part of what makes skiing such a great sport.  An endeavor that one can undertake and enjoy his/her whole life.  Skiing from the Top (picking the right line, chosing the right place to turn, controlling your speed, entering at the right spot with the right technique.  YES, into the powder with the proper anticipation of the snow density, turns that match the pitch.  NOW into the trees, ski the gaps not the trees, look ahead and see whats coming.  Out of the trees now is sun baked frozen snow, adjusting  quickly.  Down the moguls with the right line, onto the run out and carrying speed all he way to .....................

Maybe  part of this question should be not what are the objectives or skiing BUT what are the results of skiing.

The results are good, great memories and great anticipation and maybe the best results is the friendships made.  Included by all means is "Thankyou Epic for  Letting me Ski with You".

     Heli Skiing in BC

     Hours tuning skis

   Cat skiing with Big Red in BC

   Part of the Gang at Lookout Pass.  L to R.  Carol, John, Sandee (wife), Van my main ski partner, Deb and Randy.

  Old me with Epic ESA at Big Sky few years ago.

Objective Fun - Check

Objective Speed - Check

Objective:  Lifelong dreams met-great friends made-good turns-deep powder-gold medals-heli skiing-cat skiing-skiing in August in Chili- skiing in August and racing in Australia- Beat LAPD at Mammoth-Doing over 60mph (on radar) in a SG-cold-warm-deep and frozen all check, check check.

AND THE VERY BEST OBJECTIVE   -----   NEXT SEASON 

YES!!!

For me, it varies.

Sometimes it's specific, like learning a new drill, or nailing those darn moguls.

Sometimes it's abstract.

Other times it's work.

It's always enjoyment, occasionally Zen-like enjoyment, when I'm in the zone, and nothing else matters.

It's about being one with nature, regardless if I have slalom or xc skis on.

It's like 4ster said, about freedom.

It's about challenging myself.

It's about mastery.

It's about life.

It's about love.

Nartare, ergo sum.

Could the objective be, 'all of the above'?