Crashed Into Much......? - Page 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost 

 

If the downhill skier suddenly decides to make a sweeping left right across the slope after making 100 fall-line tight turns, that is his right, and I have to either not pass him or pass him fast enough and far enough away that he is unable to intercept my course (period). 

 

So if I overtook you by one metre carefully on one side (thus becoming the downhill skier), then suddenly cut across infront of you and stopped, causing you to plough into me then that would be my right as the (now) downhill skier????

I'm not saying who's right or who's wrong, I'm just pointing out that people could use a little common sense and self preservation once in a while and not read into the 'Alpine code' in military fashion.

If you cut in front of me 1 m in front of me, you are skiing across my ski tips and are clearly at fault for making an unsafe pass.  If you pass me within a metre and are fast enough that I could not hit you or cut you off if I suddenly decided to head for that shortcut through the trees to the next run over, you are going 100 mph; please show me your jet/rocket ski attachment, as I would like to try it.

To give the devil his due, I would not recommend making a sudden turn right across the slope without paying some attention to who might be about to crash into you.  Who is at fault won't change who is dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by philm 

So if I overtook you by one metre carefully on one side (thus becoming the downhill skier), then suddenly cut across infront of you and stopped, causing you to plough into me then that would be my right as the (now) downhill skier????

 

I'm not saying who's right or who's wrong, I'm just pointing out that people could use a little common sense and self preservation once in a while and not read into the 'Alpine code' in military fashion.

Silly example. If you overtake someone just to totally cut them off, obviously you're at fault. You saw the person when you were behind them, you still have to avoid running into them or cutting them off completely.

Do agree that common sense goes a long way. I always try to look uphill and proceed with care if I'm cutting across a slope to get somewhere else - being safe is far more important than being right.

and this has now fallen into the same hypothetical corner case example discussion that happens to the other Skier's Code threads.

Pedestrian decides to run blindfolded across a freeway, who's at fault.

or

should i kill 1 manatee to save 2 manatees.

The corner cases are grey areas where the rules may contradict each other, but are largely hypothetical.  Just don't get into them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by markojp 


Good luck with that in court, P. And how do you determine who's 'good enough' to ski a particular hill? By your definition of 'expert', to paraphrase George Carlin, everyone going slower than you is an idiot, and everyone going faster is a fool, no?

Maybe seeing as almost everyone here seems to take the rules exactly as they are and can't use any common sense, it is obviously too confusing for people to work out for themselves if they are good enough for the hill. Maybe you should introduce a test for skiers so they have to perform certain maneuvers in order to pass their 'blue', their 'black' and their 'double black' award / certificate. Then you would only be able to ski on a slope that you have the certificate for. That would be nice and regimented so that even complete retards could understand.

Alternatively, we could all just use the 'alpine code' as sensible guidelines and maybe add a little common sense to the mix.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost 

If you cut in front of me 1 m in front of me, you are skiing across my ski tips and are clearly at fault for making an unsafe pass.  If you pass me within a metre and are fast enough that I could not hit you or cut you off if I suddenly decided to head for that shortcut through the trees to the next run over, you are going 100 mph; please show me your jet/rocket ski attachment, as I would like to try it.

 

To give the devil his due, I would not recommend making a sudden turn right across the slope without paying some attention to who might be about to crash into you.  Who is at fault won't change who is dead.

I meant giving you 1m of clearance by whatever part of me or my skis is closest to you or your skis. I would not be skiing across your tips so would not be at fault for making an unsafe pass. I would not have to go at 100mph to overtake the average wannabe racer on 155cm slalom skis, I would just have to be careful of their sudden moves. Finally, in-case you hadn't noticed this is not something I do daily, but a hypothetical situation proving that if you just follow the strict rules then there are flaws - technically I would be in the right but to anyone with more than half a brain cell then I would have made a stupid move and therefore am in the wrong in the real world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeUT 

Silly example. If you overtake someone just to totally cut them off, obviously you're at fault. You saw the person when you were behind them, you still have to avoid running into them or cutting them off completely.

 

Do agree that common sense goes a long way. I always try to look uphill and proceed with care if I'm cutting across a slope to get somewhere else - being safe is far more important than being right.

Silly example - thank you, that was exactly my point. See my above response.

I saw it. It doesn't bring anything new. The skier you're talking about was behind the other skier, sped up and ran into him. That's out of control skiing if I've ever heard of it, a violation of the rules, not an exception to them.

Now if skier A passed by skier B far enough to avoid him, subsequently slowed down and then started making wider carves, it would be up to the skier B avoid him. T

There is some gray area, certainly; your example just lies outside of it.

That's a good idea.

But in an earlier post you were advocating that people shouldn't ski on any slope where they cannot or do not feel comfortable skiing exactly how you want them to ski at all times -- in a narrow, predictable corridor down the fall line.  This is obviously unrealistic.  You can't count on this, anyway; a skier or rider may have to make sudden, unpredictable avoidance maneuvers at almost any time due to obstacles that couldn't be seen from above (ice, rocks/stumps, or a fallen skier/rider, just to name a few), or could catch an edge (or hit a submerged obstacle in ungroomed snow) and fall unpredictably.

Trying to put the responsibility on a moving skier to make sure some idiot isn't bearing down on them at mach schnell before every turn is absurd.  It's good advice to be careful if you're about to cut across a wide slope or 'change lanes', but physics and sight lines dictate that it's a LOT easier for the uphill skier to do the avoiding than the downhill one.

Yes, this means you may have to slow down sometimes if the slope is crowded, or not wide enough to pass safely at a particular spot.  Suck it up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by philm 

I never said that biking and skiing are the same, I said to treat some maneuvers on skis like you would a bike (i.e. use some self preservation skills). Please read what I say properly in future. Also, you might also like to note that good skiers generally ski parallel to the fall line, with minor deviation from one side to another. Beginners have a tendency to ski back and forth perpendicular to the fall line. When I ski in beginner zones, I am extremely respectful that there may be beginners present and therefore ski at a sensible pace and give other skiers a huge margin when overtaking. However, I believe that there is some responsibility code about skiing slopes that are within your ability. If you are skiing down a blue or black run perpendicular to the fall line then maybe it's time to take a lesson or head to the nursery slopes. In 20+ years of skiing I have never had a collision with another skier; I have however, had to do some extremely quick maneuvers to avoid someone making a very arrhythmic turn out of the blue.

 

Please stay off slopes that are above your ability until you have the competence to ski them properly.

Actually you did say that and you are still saying it because you don't understand a fundamental concept of advanced skiing. The expert skier controls his or her speed by changing direction, "carving". Unskilled skiers are more likely to take a straighter course such as the one you describe, scrubbing speed by turning the skis away from the fall line but without a  significant change in direction, "skidding".

I'm a pretty good skier who tends to finish each turn with my skis perpendicular to the fall line, especially on steeper slopes. I enjoy making short little turns and big sweeping turns. Am I doing it wrong? 

If you are passing me far enough away from me that I cannot cut you off with a sudden move on my part given our speed differential, I will have no trouble what so ever avoiding you no matter what else you do once you get passed me, having seen you in my peripheral vision for quite some time, and being able to turn myself.

Well it all sounds good on paper and most of the time if everyone follows the rules it's Rainbows and Unicorns. However, that is not always the case in real life. If the party that does stray from doing it the right way or has a moment of misconception hopefully they will rethink their skiing habits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthias99 

 

 

That's a good idea.

 

But in an earlier post you were advocating that people shouldn't ski on any slope where they cannot or do not feel comfortable skiing exactly how you want them to ski at all times -- in a narrow, predictable corridor down the fall line.  This is obviously unrealistic.  You can't count on this, anyway; a skier or rider may have to make sudden, unpredictable avoidance maneuvers at almost any time due to obstacles that couldn't be seen from above (ice, rocks/stumps, or a fallen skier/rider, just to name a few), or could catch an edge (or hit a submerged obstacle in ungroomed snow) and fall unpredictably.

 

Trying to put the responsibility on a moving skier to make sure some idiot isn't bearing down on them at mach schnell before every turn is absurd.  It's good advice to be careful if you're about to cut across a wide slope or 'change lanes', but physics and sight lines dictate that it's a LOT easier for the uphill skier to do the avoiding than the downhill one.

 

Yes, this means you may have to slow down sometimes if the slope is crowded, or not wide enough to pass safely at a particular spot.  Suck it up.

I think we generally agree Matthias. Some people were saying that the downhill skier is ALWAYS in the right. I was giving some examples that are obviously extreme, purely as examples to prove that maybe the downhill skier isn't always in the right 100% of the time. I fully understand that people might make sudden changes for a bump or another skier or whatever, but my biggest concern is the 'lane changers' who apparently are very competent skiers performing rhythmic turns when they suddenly 'change lanes' drastically in cut into someone who is overtaking and has given them a very reasonable margin of area.

I can spot a beginner a mile off and have no problem planning my route and speed accordingly. However, when I see someone carving consistent turns, I assume that they have a reasonable level of competency and sense and would not suddenly cut people off.....I guess I am mistaken. It seems some people are that stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by telerod15 

 

Actually you did say that and you are still saying it because you don't understand a fundamental concept of advanced skiing. The expert skier controls his or her speed by changing direction, "carving". Unskilled skiers are more likely to take a straighter course such as the one you describe, scrubbing speed by turning the skis away from the fall line but without a  significant change in direction, "skidding".

 

I'm a pretty good skier who tends to finish each turn with my skis perpendicular to the fall line, especially on steeper slopes. I enjoy making short little turns and big sweeping turns. Am I doing it wrong? 

Personally I would generally consider advanced skiing to be skiing powder / freeride terrain. Coming back to the groomers just allows you to get back to the lifts for another lap and it can be quite frustrating having intermediate skiers pointlessly carving turns on a flat cat track when everyone else is trying to keep up their speed to avoid skating / poling. Cat tracks are normally connections, not nursery slopes.

I have no problem with you doing short little turns or big sweeping turns. Just don't jumble them into a big irregular mess, especially on a constricted cat track where people may be trying to pass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by philm 

Personally I would generally consider advanced skiing to be skiing powder / freeride terrain. Coming back to the groomers just allows you to get back to the lifts for another lap and it can be quite frustrating having intermediate skiers pointlessly carving turns on a flat cat track when everyone else is trying to keep up their speed to avoid skating / poling. Cat tracks are normally connections, not nursery slopes.

 

I have no problem with you doing short little turns or big sweeping turns. Just don't jumble them into a big irregular mess, especially on a constricted cat track where people may be trying to pass.

I hope you're being ironic there. Somewhere in there is a 1990s No Fear shirt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by markojp 

Like I said P, why is it one can ski for decades and not hit someone? In the end hitting other skiers is bad. It's also very avoidable using that common sense we're all so fond of.

Have you ever had any near misses? As I said, in 20+ years of skiing I have never hit anyone, but I've had a fair share of near misses when someone has cut me up.

I agree that hitting other skiers is bad and all I've being trying to say all along is that if some people (not everyone) weren't so stuck up their own arses reading the rules in military fashion and added just a little common sense to the mix then there would be even less collisions on the mountain. Surely this is a good thing?????

To the OP, maybe chill a little and don't be telling people to STFU. Typically people with this kind of attitude are often the ones who cannot admit that maybe they were partially to blame. In the fourth paragraph, in my opinion, you have this arrogant attitude of 'I AM THE DOWNHILL SKIER AND AM THEREFORE RIGHT' rather than considering whether skiing erratically is actually a good idea or not. I would like to hear your friend's point of view of the whole situation.
 

^^^ It is Philm who is displaying a strict military attidude, and a "stuck up" enforced discipline attitude.  "You must ski ziz way, und not zat vay!"  There is no rule, thankfully, that forces one to ski in a predictable manner.  If you get the urge to make a gs turn while making a bunch of slalom turns you are free to do so.  It's called free skiing.

Yes, it is good advice to ski aware and avoid cutting off errant skiers who are passing too close, or are along side zigging when you're zagging, but that doesn't mean you have to ski in any particular disciplined fashion.

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting.  If you are almost hitting people who cut you off, you need to give them a little more room when you pass.  If you are cutting off a lot of people, you need to pay a little more attention, or maybe consider getting goggles that allow more peripheral vision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by philm 

 

Have you ever had any near misses? As I said, in 20+ years of skiing I have never hit anyone, but I've had a fair share of near misses when someone has cut me up.

 

I agree that hitting other skiers is bad and all I've being trying to say all along is that if some people (not everyone) weren't so stuck up their own arses reading the rules in military fashion and added just a little common sense to the mix then there would be even less collisions on the mountain. Surely this is a good thing?????

 

 

To the OP, maybe chill a little and don't be telling people to STFU. Typically people with this kind of attitude are often the ones who cannot admit that maybe they were partially to blame. In the fourth paragraph, in my opinion, you have this arrogant attitude of 'I AM THE DOWNHILL SKIER AND AM THEREFORE RIGHT' rather than considering whether skiing erratically is actually a good idea or not. I would like to hear your friend's point of view of the whole situation.
 

 

I wish you had seen yesterday's wreck at the local hill. A 5 year old turned in front of an expert adult male who was skiing very fast... Helicopter evac for the little guy, and a sled for the adult. Prayers for the little guy. He was the downhill skier, and he was right. 

An expert skier who skis very fast anywhere near a 5-year-old is not an expert skier.

Hope the little guy is OK and hope the adult learned something (after maybe getting his stupid ass taken to court, or paid the little guy's medical expenses, heli-evac included).

Quote:

Originally Posted by markojp 

I wish you had seen yesterday's wreck at the local hill. A 5 year old turned in front of an expert adult male who was skiing very fast... Helicopter evac for the little guy, and a sled for the adult. Prayers for the little guy. He was the downhill skier, and he was right. 

 

Have to quote myself and add that the details are not in. My mistake. The bottom line is hitting kids is almost always the adult's fault. To answer P's question about close calls, yes, we all have I'd guess. I each case I slowed down or stopped and apologized. Cat tracks? We all ski pretty close to each other on our local hill on a couple of cat tracks that have heavy skier traffic. When you're overtaking, it's best to let the skier ahead know. It doesn't have to be loud. An "on your right/left" to a skier or "on your front/backside" to a boarder, tapping your poles together, etc... make for a safe pass in close quarters. If it's a wobbly beginner, give them much more room. It's simple. There's no yelling or drama involved. I also look at it this way. If you're an expert skier, you have a duty when skiing in proximity to others to use all your skills and experience to avoid collisions whether or not you're 'right' or 'wrong'. You know not to fly over a roll over on a groomer without a spotter. Yesterday it was a mom helping her little girl just below a transition that a boarder almost creamed. Having seen the aftermath of the incident mentioned earlier, I went so far as to stop above them until they were put back together and on their way. Look out for yourself, and look out/help others who might need it. It's just what you do. Hitting people isn't likely to end well for anyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by markojp 

When you're overtaking, it's best to let the skier ahead know. It doesn't have to be loud. 

When they have tunes blaring in their ear buds, it sure as hell does!  

I'm thinking of investing in a portable air-horn.....
 

Some female tourist a couple seasons back had one.  And she kept using it!!  Horrid!!
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skierish 

When they have tunes blaring in their ear buds, it sure as hell does!  

 

I'm thinking of investing in a portable air-horn.....
 

 

You know you want one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by slider 

You know you want one.

To paraphrase Will Smith, "I've GOT to get me one of THOSE!!!"

Don't fret, Sib, it would be used strictly for dire cat-track blocking emergencies only!
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by philm 

...I fully understand that people might make sudden changes for a bump or another skier or whatever, but my biggest concern is the 'lane changers' who apparently are very competent skiers performing rhythmic turns when they suddenly 'change lanes' drastically in cut into someone who is overtaking and has given them a very reasonable margin of area.

 

I can spot a beginner a mile off and have no problem planning my route and speed accordingly. However, when I see someone carving consistent turns, I assume that they have a reasonable level of competency and sense and would not suddenly cut people off.....I guess I am mistaken. It seems some people are that stupid.

You keep saying you "understand" this, and then make statements indicating you either don't get it or refuse to accept that it has to be done this way for safety purposes.  The uphill skier/rider is in a MUCH better position to watch and avoid the downhill skiers/riders.

On the flip side of this, one of my biggest concerns while teaching is people who overtake without giving enough clearance.  If you have given someone a "reasonable" margin while passing them, they should not be able to cut in front of you no matter what they do.  If you can't overtake them without risking them cutting you off, you are way too close to them and/or moving way too fast relative to them.

There is no requirement for people to ski "consistently" in the way you seem to be demanding, beginners or not.  They're not 'cutting you off'; you're getting WAY too close to them.

I think it all comes down to, you MUST obey the Responsibility Code, but beyond that, have some sense and ski defensively.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by sibhusky 

I think it all comes down to, you MUST obey the Responsibility Code, but beyond that, have some sense and ski defensively.  

Nice going.  If you resort to simplicity and common sense, what will become of this thread???  

FWIW, I always try to remember to glance over my shoulder when making a sharp and sudden change of direction.  I like the "crossing the street" analogy; I'd rather get across the street than get smacked by a car but be in the right, so I look both ways anyway even when I have the right-of-way.  

I'd also rather keep skiing the rest of the day than be right about having the right-of-way and be hit from behind anyway.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skierish 

 

When they have tunes blaring in their ear buds, it sure as hell does!  

 

I'm thinking of investing in a portable air-horn.....
 

 

If you can't safely pass without issuing a verbal warning that your potential victim can hear, you're doing it wrong. Do I need to wear a bright orange vest with "DEAF SKIER" on it?