Live from Jackson Hole: My Fischer Vacuum Thread - Page 2

agree with the above, Head's approach in CC is an awesome idea. We used to measure foot volume with a water replacement device, eventually our eyes caught up and we don't use it now. That said it would be great if there we're such standards across the industry. A few years back we took on the manufacturers in Italy, tried to get some standards put in place to help us bootfitters out, Flex testing; 3 and 5mm allen bolts only, standard last information (some count the liner, some don't) we also asked for a panel on the Coller with an area where we could measure to assertion the width of plastic at the met heads. Most were keen some we're not, they don't like each other too much in Italy, always love bitching out the competition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beyond 

Slight drift, but I'd love to have someone standardize what "high/low volume" means. 

I have come to understand "high volume" as meaning a high instep.  Would a bootfitter please step up and clarify?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquidFeet 

 

I have come to understand "high volume" as meaning a high instep. 

Why limit "high volume" to just "high instep"?    That's like saying "social media" to mean just Facebook. 

If you look at SZK's post just above - high volume means high volume.   They were measuring volume by the equivalent amount of water the clog  would hold - but then they decided that was just too laborious and just eyeballed it from experience. 

Trouble is, there is no /standard/ as in "A 26.0 shell should hold 1600 cc below the pivots" and even if there was it would require case-by-case translation to determine what such a measurement would mean to the individual skier.     Hence the eyeballing is actually quite a labour-saver, since both the "rough evaluation" step and "translation to individual" step can be done in one practically-trained go. 

Hi, Stephen.  Great thread.  Very informative.  My only reservation on using the Intuition liners has been that they pack out pretty quickly for those of us who spend every day on the hill.  I've gone to the Surefoot version of the Conformables for this reason, plus I like the precise fit around all the nooks and crannies of my foot.  Would this liner be a viable alternative to the Intuitions?  Any feedback appreciated.  Thanks again!

Quote:

Originally Posted by cantunamunch 

 

Why limit "high volume" to just "high instep"?    That's like saying "social media" to mean just Facebook. 

 

If you look at SZK's post just above - high volume means high volume.   They were measuring volume by the equivalent amount of water the clog  would hold - but then they decided that was just too laborious and just eyeballed it from experience. 

 

Trouble is, there is no /standard/ as in "A 26.0 shell should hold 1600 cc below the pivots" and even if there was it would require case-by-case translation to determine what such a measurement would mean to the individual skier.     Hence the eyeballing is actually quite a labour-saver, since both the "rough evaluation" step and "translation to individual" step can be done in one practically-trained go. 

 

I thought that's what it meant, and how it was used in the trade.  

Time to go to lines and offsets, just like for boat hulls.

Is this boot a good choice for an aspiring beginner skier?

This boot is the best choice for all living humans, and any lower primates who care to ski. Shakier for quadrupeds, Yak may prefer the Lange models.

Anyway, welcome to Epic, and my non-ironic answer is that it's apparently a very nice, fairly expensive boot that has been mercilessly overmarketed as everyone's breakthrough solution, but probably is mortal after all. OTOH, it is worth a look if you already know you have feet that won't be happy in other brands.

If you're an "aspiring beginner," though, doesn't that mean you want to start skiing, but haven't yet? In any case, good on you for starting with boots, then worrying about skis. I'd go to a good fitter and try a number of different brands. One or three will probably work for you. The fitter may be able to give you the best suggestions about where to go from there. Which might include Fischer, might not. Keep in mind, in a system like this, there's some blind faith involved. You have no way of knowing much about the shell until after you've slapped down the plastic hard, and then been molded. Nor, since you've done very little skiing, apparently, do you have much to compare to for the sake of the fitter. Like being able to say, "I had these XXX's, and I liked them except at the heel, but YYY's sucked everywhere and ZZZ's let me sleep during turns." Put another way, advise against showing up and saying, "Hi, I've skied twice, using rentals that were like small naval barges, and I've decided I want these boots I read about at Epic." 

We have a nice "Ask the Boot Guys" forum, incidentally, where you can post this very query...

I'd like to compliment Stephen on a well written thread,it's pretty clear that the new technology never fully lived up to the hype , but resourceful minded guys (and girls) always find a way around things not quite working as advertised.  This is the most informative thread I've seen on the Fischer Vacuum.   If you were my boot fitter you'd have me completely sold on them.  Although I'm curious if anyone has combined a Zipfit with this boot ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wikked1 

Although I'm curious if anyone has combined a Zipfit with this boot ?

I skied with the stock liner for a couple of days, and the Zipfit World Cup for over 40.  I molded the Zipfit using the microwave method.

I’ve got the dreaded wide forefoot, very high arch and narrow heel.  Got good performance with a Tecnica racing boot with a foam liner for the past decade, but no comfort at all.

Just got the ’13 model 12+ vacuum hybrid two weeks ago with the newer liner. The walk mode makes it much easier for me to enter and exit the boot.

They were molded @ a pressure of 280. First two days out had the usual pressure over the arch and numb toes after 90 min of skiing on warm days.   L   They skied very differently at first, but then I got used to them . Lots more flex, but more responsive on blue groomers.

 Took them back and sprung for the Zip Fit Gara model liner (love, love, love that stretchy toe box).  My experienced boot fitter skis a vacuum boot with a Zip fit which is partly what sold me on this setup.

 Remolded the shell at a pressure of 220 this time with two pads, rather than one taped over the arch. I also asked that the shells be cooked for 12, rather than the recommended 10 minutes. You could noticeably smell the shells this time after cooking them and they appeared softer as well. Viola.

The arch area of the shell was noticeably expanded and the toes felt great. After removing all the padding, the top of the boot just barely closed over the arch without the arch buckle tightened ( a few moments of concern for me, although they  can always be remolded with  less padding if they leak). The toe end of the overlapping top of the boot had to be trimmed a touch, as it was overlapping the white plastic part. Another confirmation that the shell had actually changed shape.

Have yet to ski them, but we clearly got more arch space and toe comfort the second time around (at least in the shop). If the heel  isn’t firm enough, it was suggested that I come back to reheat the liner alone and then we could crank the buckles down some. You really can’t  tighten the buckles while molding the shell as not to elongate the buckle mounting holes.

Hope to get on the slope next week and try them out.

I have a flat foot, small ankle and wide forefoot.  They are a beaut!  Anyway, I bought some Fischer 110's last year and within 30 minutes on the mountain my feet were ice.  Looks like the liner is the main/only culprit.  Fitter said we can either wait for some 2013 liners they have requested for customers like me or go with an aftermarket (intuition/zipfit).  I opted for the cheaper replacement liner to try first, but since I don't live near a ski hill I am wondering if I should just bite the bullet on the zipfits?  My feet are generally cold anyway so the added warmth could seal the deal for me. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by envgeo 

I have a flat foot, small ankle and wide forefoot.  They are a beaut!  Anyway, I bought some Fischer 110's last year and within 30 minutes on the mountain my feet were ice.  Looks like the liner is the main/only culprit.  Fitter said we can either wait for some 2013 liners they have requested for customers like me or go with an aftermarket (intuition/zipfit).  I opted for the cheaper replacement liner to try first, but since I don't live near a ski hill I am wondering if I should just bite the bullet on the zipfits?  My feet are generally cold anyway so the added warmth could seal the deal for me. 

I use an Intuition liner in my boots.  Zip Fit is also good.  I like the warmth and the fit and will likely never use a stock liner again.  What is the "cheaper replacement liner" you are speaking of?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie 

 

I use an Intuition liner in my boots.  Zip Fit is also good.  I like the warmth and the fit and will likely never use a stock liner again.  What is the "cheaper replacement liner" you are speaking of?

the fitter has requested that Fischer send the Vacuum 2013 liners as replacements for the Vacuum 2012 liners. I was under the impression that Fischer would send these gratis.  thanks for the feedback on intuition/zipfit.

Hi Stephan! 

What a extensive review... 

As I've never been happy with my pair of Vacuum boots since last season, I really need some help.

I bought my boots in a local ski shop in Switzerland.

Since they don't have enough experience about Vacuum boots, my fitting was not so successful.

I already did 2 times of fitting with Vacuum station, and expanded forefoot width once more.

However, I still have pain on my outside of my footbed, and inside of knee.

After the first fitting, I thought the forward lean (default) is too much, and stance (default) is too wide.

That's why I did the second fitting, with a smaller lean and a narrower stance.

After the second fitting, forward lean problem is solved, but weird pain on my knee and footbed is taken place.

I thought it was because of the narrow shape of the forefoot, and took extra expansion of forefoot, but the problem remains.

I inspected my boots and realized the cuffs are molded extremely outward, although my legs are slightly knock-kneed. 

Also, I remember that when I do the second fitting, they didn't change the setting of knee pad, and decreased foot stance only.

This inappropriate canting occured the pain, I guess.

Now the question comes...

1. How should I ask them to adjust the stance and knee distance?

- Should I ask just as narrow as possible? Do you think it would be enough, for slightly knock-kneed person like me?

For sure, my ski shop will not make 'narrower' stance as you did.

2. I really hate the liner... Should I buy the Intuition liner?  

- As you mentioned, the stock liner never expands... and compresses my forefoot and toes too much.

Although They padded 2 layers of foam around my forefoot, 2 fischer toecaps, and so on... my feet are quite tired in the liners.

It definitely limits the expansion of the forefoot and toebox, which I need so badly.

(In addition, it makes my feet cold after 1-2 hours of skiing.)

The way of making some room by placing cork and heel lift outside the liner are fantastic.

Do you think it should work if I ask them the way you did?

Also, you did some work with Intuition liners, which are heat mold-able.

Since my ski shop don't have such a molding equipment, I checked Dreamliner, which does not require extra heat molding process. Do you think this combination might solve the problem?

I'm sorry for such a lengthy question...

All the bests,

MJ

Had trouble getting the top of the boot over the arch to close adequately as noted in my prior post. We remolded them a third time @ a pressure of 300. Now have good closure, good arch space and I can now keep the boot buckled for an entire half day and no numb feet. By far the best fit ever for this weird foot of mine. Well worth all the time, effort and $$. It helps to have the bootfitter on 2 mi from the house as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie 

I skied for about 20 days in the stock liner and really tried to make it work for me... started to develop a horrific Achilles tendon problem that became the deal breaker between me and the stock liner.  Jeff made some clever modifications to the liner, but they never quite got the problem fixed.

...

 

I ultimately got an Intuition Powerwrap put into the boot.  This made the Achilles problem go away and made the boot FAR easier to get on and off.

Can you say more about the achilles issue? As I say in my RC4 Pro Review the one concern I have is with Achilles tenderness on one ankle. That's a little scary because it almost put me out of commission. That was from a pair of Salomons and I don't think the issue was the construction of the liner but it's shape -- I think it was because they had a very narrow channel leading up from the toe pocket that sort of in-cased the tendon -- any up and down movement (like form skating after kids) would cause friction. I had no issues at all in this area with my Atomics RT Tis -- and one of my favorite things about that boot was how tight the heel pocket was. And they had almost farcically thin liners. With the sallies we tried cutting out the area around the tendon, but to no avail; I ended up ditching them for the Atomics. So I'm wondering if actually the issue might be that I need to lock the heel down more, vs. adding space (padding around for molding process) around that small area in the achilles.

I know this is one of those areas where people have to agree to disagree, but I have a perhaps un-reasonable aversion to moldable liners. It sounds contradictory given that I now have a moldable boot :), but the point I've heard made by people I trust is that having your foot fully entombed can interfere with subtle ankle movements. I don't feel that way in the Fischers -- the fit is enveloping, but I can still wiggle my foot around a bit and I don't want to lose that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie 
My first day out, I was really starting to wonder if I had made a horrible expensive mistake.  I got used to the boot fairly quickly and love it now.  In fact when I ski in my old boots which I used to love, they feel strange and low performance even though the "fit" is still awesome.  I wonder if what I experienced out of the gate with the new boot is the root cause of some of the other peoples negative reviews?  Small Zoo Keeper talks of people making a few runs hating the boot and never looking back.  This was my initial experience also because it was so different from what I had before.

That's a really insightful comment. I think one reason I had such an initial wow experience was because I knew what I really wanted and was just looking for the right boot combo that would give it to me. The RC4s gave me what I wanted and more, but what I was looking for was something that was way different than what I was used to. Most people are looking for a boot that skis "just like my existing boot only better" and they might be in for an unpleasant surprise.

Some people ski more in their bodies, some more in their heads, and for better or worse I think I fall into the latter category. I could see someone who is used to trusting their muscle memory -- like a natural athlete, which I am not -- and was looking for a boot that complimented their intuitive sense of how things should work to feel really tossed around and quickly get frustrated by it. It's just a very different feeling boot. To compare it to a car, there is much less "on center" feel. Tip it and it wants to go, and in particular I found the new outside edge wants to engage more quickly -- again, that was precisely what I was looking for. I wouldn't think the RC4 Pro in particular would make a very good cruising ski and I suppose it could be even feel edgy in some cases. And on the other hand, I wonder if a Power skier would find themselves initially over-powering it vs. a more Finesse oriented skier. To be clear, I am not contrasting skiers skills, but style.

I have to say I can't understand anyone who would take something out for a few runs and decide they hated it. That sounds a bit fishy to me. :) Anyway, my feeling is that shops that were ready to educate their customers about the difference rather than reinforcing a negative experience after the fact would have much more positive customer reactions. My dealer emphasized a number of times that the boot would ski very differently from what I was used to, and I'm extremely happy to report that he was exactly right. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodro 

 

Can you say more about the achilles issue? As I say in my RC4 Pro Review the one concern I have is with Achilles tenderness on one ankle. That's a little scary because it almost put me out of commission. That was from a pair of Salomons and I don't think the issue was the construction of the liner but it's shape -- I think it was because they had a very narrow channel leading up from the toe pocket that sort of in-cased the tendon -- any up and down movement (like form skating after kids) would cause friction. I had no issues at all in this area with my Atomics RT Tis -- and one of my favorite things about that boot was how tight the heel pocket was. And they had almost farcically thin liners. With the sallies we tried cutting out the area around the tendon, but to no avail; I ended up ditching them for the Atomics. So I'm wondering if actually the issue might be that I need to lock the heel down more, vs. adding space (padding around for molding process) around that small area in the achilles.

 

I know this is one of those areas where people have to agree to disagree, but I have a perhaps un-reasonable aversion to moldable liners. It sounds contradictory given that I now have a moldable boot :), but the point I've heard made by people I trust is that having your foot fully entombed can interfere with subtle ankle movements. I don't feel that way in the Fischers -- the fit is enveloping, but I can still wiggle my foot around a bit and I don't want to lose that.

 

Also, I'm not sure why you didn't get them re-molded when that's one of the points of having the boots..?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's been a while, but as I remember it....  The liners developed a crease down the back from me shoving my foot into them and pushing them down.  Even though I would always pull the liner back up, the crease just got bigger and the problem got steadily worse and it really hurt.  I found the boot very difficult for me to get off and on with the stock liner.  I don't have those problems with the Intuition.  I love the feel of the Intuitions and use them in all of my ski boots.  Yes, I do have a small quiver of ski boots.  At first my foot felt entombed, but that is not how it feels now.  I do have subtle ankle movements and wiggle room in my toe box.  It isn't even that the liners packed out.  The liners I'm using now have over 100 days on them and they are still going strong.  I cracked the original vacuum shells and placed the old Intuitions in the new shells this year.  This years fit is very good right out of the gate.  I had the left toebox stretched a few days ago and that might be all that gets done this time.  The stance and the canting feel spot on.

The reason I didn't get them remolded had to do with scheduling.  I am in my boots literally almost everyday.  Yes there are a few days when I snowboard, tele ski, or take a day off, but I never quite know when those days are coming.  Also as a shop rep I get treated very well with pricing, deals, and other things, but I get bumped when a paying customer comes along for bootfitting and the bootfitters were busy a lot last season.  This and the fact that you can't really use the boot for 24 hours after a remold kept me from wanting to go the full remold route on the toe box issues I had last year.  It wasn't so bad that I couldn't live with it like the achilles issue became, but it wasn't the fit that I was looking for and have now.  My left big toe was slightly numb until about mid May.  This year my bootfitting may be done for the season in one molding and one quick secondary visit.  I was careful to get in and deal with it while the shop was still slow.  In another week it will be harder for me to coordinate the time between both my schedule and the shops schedule. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by epic 

Would that even be desirable? I'd rather have solid lugs that can be lifterized, canted and planed easily.

Epic,

 This is a very interesting question, but here is my personal experience. I have been fitting the Vacuum boots for several months now and I got a pair of the Ranger 12's. I got these boots b/c I already have a boot that I absolutely love (Dalbello Viper Strike ID with the Dalbello Intuition tongue liner swapped for a Dalbello Intuition Power wrap pro) and I did not have a good hiking boot. First off as a bootfitter, I should have known better than picking the boot I wanted, and picked a boot that actually fight somewhat correctly. (I have a 99mm(ish) last and a VERY narrow heel). But Being a geek, I wanted to see how much I could actually mold the boots down onto my foot using the stock liner. I have a very odd stance and my cants are 2.5 degrees on left and 3 on the right. After the first mold, I really still wasn't tight enough, but interesting enough, my cant had been molded in almost to the point that I was basically flat. Well, I remolded with zero internal padding, and a whole lot of 1/4" high density padding on the outside of the boot and 3/8" of high density "L" pads on the outside of the shell (kind of like we may have done in the past to the outside of the liner) to get some heel grip into the boot then cooked the boot for an extra 1.5 minute past recommended time to get it real soft (if you do this, do it at your own risk and for the love of everything good on this earth please do not overtighten the buckles as you can easily stretch the rivet holes and rip them off) and setmyself into the machine at max PSI (360 i think) and holy cow, It molded a whole lot better than I could have dreamed. The boot fits really well, not perfect, but a whole lot better than I would have thought, and the cant was almost perfect without any actual canting. To finish the fit off, After the boot had cooled, I pulled out the Dalbello intuition ID liners that had come with my Strikes, and presto, Awesome, they really do seem to work great. I still like my Strikes when it is time to turn on the afterburners, but for comfort, and being in them all day, The Fischer Vacuum Ranger 12's are awesome.

appreciate the write up.  and the insight about boots...  well your point about weight is right on.  so many of the industries combo ski-bindings are so heavy.  its like park skis are the lightest but not necessarily the best performing all over.  would like to hear more about that weight issue and equipment reviews in that vein.  do you have any reviews/suggestions for wide forefeet and prominent ankles? thanks

Ok, stupid question: How would I get replacements?  Through my original bootfitter or from Fischer directly somehow? (I honestly don't know).

I skied the 110s about 50 days this year. Previous boots were Fischer's and Full Tilts. I wear a 11.5 B New Balance athletic shoe with a thick sock. I was shell fit, tried a smaller size and it clearly was too small and bought the 28.5. It has a shorter BSL than my other boots. I've never had much foot discomfort or problems with cold feet in previous boots. My old Fischer's skied great but were difficult to get on and off and it hurt my 65 yr old back to deal with them. I selected the Vacuum because I liked the SOMA fit and found the new Vacuums easy on - easy off.

I read this post and others before my initial fitting and used extra padding around the toes during the initial fitting. I have never had a boot that skied so accurately but they never really fit right on the front. It was very hard to get to fit comfortably around my toes and forefoot.

After weeks in the boots I developed numb toes and what I self diagnosed as Morton's Neuroma. We tried modifying the stock liner and then different liners. We punched the toes across the front and little toe side of the shell three times. It never solved the COLD problem and the numbness and Morton's problem developed over time. Late in the season I spent the $$$ for Hotronics hoping it would not only solve the temperature issue but also the numbness. We did not have much late season cold weather so the temperature was not a problem but the numbness continued.

Intuition liners were recommended but my previous experience with Intuition Power Wraps were, "Like the way they skied but they make my feet sweat" plus I thought the really firm fit of the Power Wraps was not something I wanted to deal with since my feet had already started to hurt - for the first time in my life.

Looking forward to next season and some upgrades from Fischer.