Spring workouts - Page 3

I know this may sound crazy, but the best workout for skiing is....you guessed skiing.

Also, the best way to get better at skiing is...skiing.

Its wild.

Bingo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB Smoovee 

I know this may sound crazy, but the best workout for skiing is....you guessed skiing.

 

Also, the best way to get better at skiing is...skiing.

 

Its wild.

As far as summer activities go, also, the closer those activities are to skiing, the better both as regards keeping trained for skiing physically, and keeping some of the movement patterns.  MTB, longboard skateboarding, surfing, etc.  Probably unicycling also, that video was cool.

As far removed as it is from a true motion sport, tennis I'd rate as far better than weights, because it makes you move.  (I'd call it a footwork sport, not a sliding motion sport.)

Trail running again = better than weights if skiing is what we are talking about. 

As far as running itself is concerned, the best training for running is, again, running.  This holds even more true once you get to distances that involve sustained output of a couple minutes or more. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB Smoovee 

I know this may sound crazy, but the best workout for skiing is....you guessed skiing.

 

Its wild.

It may be wild, but it's not true.

From a skill development perspective, yes, skiing is good for getting better at skiing. But that said, developing improved athleticism through other activities will also help. In fact it will help more for those who are not very athletic. Also remember that the quality of your skiing will impact how well skiing improves your skiing. Practice doesn't make perfect; perfect practice makes perfect. 

Getting stronger, moving better, and improving speed and explosiveness are your best bets for training for skiing. In addition to improving your skiing performance, they also reduce injury risk. Skiing is a sport that's not particularly kind on the body because of the posture. Ditto cycling. And tennis. Cross-country skiing is one of the few sports where I might agree that participating in the sport is good training for the sport. Might. For everything else, injury potential will be significantly reduced with off-snow training. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by evaino 

 

...Skiing is a sport that's not particularly kind on the body because of the posture. Ditto cycling. And tennis. Cross-country skiing is one of the few sports where I might agree that participating in the sport is good training for the sport. Might. For everything else, injury potential will be significantly reduced with off-snow training. 

Not the way it works.  If you want to train for cycling, you need to get on a bike, just as one example.  Some cycling coaches use limited weight training in the off-season, though most of those actually use drills on a bike for the bulk of their resistance training.  Likewise, some coaches advocate some limited stretching, while some think stretching is counterproductive.  What they all agree on is that getting on a bike is the best training for cycling (plus a little, uh, extra, sometimes).  Like the ad says, "I'm on my bike, 6 hours a day, what are you on?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriponsnow 

...  Skiing also lacks the cardiovascular requirements to offset aging, frosty beverages, chairlifts & cheeseburgers that tend to go w/ our sport....

Skiing or riding well is actually a very aerobic activity.  One reason why things like cycling are such good crosstraining.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTKook 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriponsnow 

...  Skiing also lacks the cardiovascular requirements to offset aging, frosty beverages, chairlifts & cheeseburgers that tend to go w/ our sport....

Skiing or riding well is actually a very aerobic activity.  One reason why things like cycling are such good crosstraining.

Its actually considered an anaerobic activity unless you are hiking and skiing. Otherwise you have periods of activity followed by periods of inactivity (riding the chairlift) which makes it anaerobic. While it may get your blood flowing and heart pumping it is not an aerobic activity. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylrwnzl 

 

Its actually considered an anaerobic activity unless you are hiking and skiing. Otherwise you have periods of activity followed by periods of inactivity (riding the chairlift) which makes it anaerobic. While it may get your blood flowing and heart pumping it is not an aerobic activity. 

No.  Racers, for instance, tend to have pretty high slow-twitch ratios, and are able to pound out pretty good numbers in tests of aerobic capacity.  There is a reason for this. 

Intense skiing, like racing, calls on the range of energy sources, but a surprising amount of the energy for even something like slalom racing comes from aerobic sources.  The less intense exertion of a recreational skier on an average run is going to be even more aerobic in terms of where energy sources come from.  It is true that lift-served skiing has intervals of activity followed by long intervals of rest, but so does a middle-distance runner's workout. 

In terms of training energy systems, this is one reason why activities like riding a bike, or tennis, do work so well in terms of off-season conditioning.   Tennis being towards the less aerobic end of the spectrum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTKook 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylrwnzl 

 

Its actually considered an anaerobic activity unless you are hiking and skiing. Otherwise you have periods of activity followed by periods of inactivity (riding the chairlift) which makes it anaerobic. While it may get your blood flowing and heart pumping it is not an aerobic activity. 

No.  Racers, for instance, tend to have pretty high slow-twitch ratios, and are able to pound out pretty good numbers in tests of aerobic capacity.  There is a reason for this. 

 

Intense skiing, like racing, calls on the range of energy sources, but a surprising amount of the energy for even something like slalom racing comes from aerobic sources.  The less intense exertion of a recreational skier on an average run is going to be even more aerobic in terms of where energy sources come from.  It is true that lift-served skiing has intervals of activity followed by long intervals of rest, but so does a middle-distance runner's workout. 

 

In terms of training energy systems, this is one reason why activities like riding a bike, or tennis, do work so well in terms of off-season conditioning.   Tennis being towards the less aerobic end of the spectrum.

Do you know what the word aerobic means in this context?

"any of various sustained exercises,such as jogging, rowing, swimming,or cycling, that stimulate and strengthen the heart and lungs, thereby improving the body's utilization of oxygen." dictionary.com

How on earth does a middle distance runner have intervals of rest like a skier? If they are using proper form, even on "breaks" they are still walking not stopping unlike skiing where your body becomes static. What kind of cardiovascular shape an athlete is in does not define the type of activity his sport is. Football players also have a fast muscle twitch and many have great cardiovascular endurance, but football is still an anaerobic sport. 

And what is an aerobic energy source? I can't find any use of that term through a Google search. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylrwnzl 

 

Do you know what the word aerobic means in this context?

 

... 

Yes, but you clearly do not.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21679319  Here's just one helpful link. 

"Abstract

Alpine skiing is a recreational sport with high demands on the cardiovascular and neuromuscular systems. It is assumed that skiing could have positive effects on the decline in aerobic capacity, strength, and balance ability of older individuals. In a 12-week intervention study,..."

If you want to learn about the various energy sources the body utlizes during exercise, I suggest Google. 

For people with reading comprehension issues, I did not say that skiing equates to marathoning.   However, the average ski run at a bigger mountain does take at least as long as the average middle distance track race, and the average skier does undertake that sustained exertion, with "high demands on the cardiovascular...systems"  8 to maybe 15 times a day. 

The idea of skiing put forward by some on here, that it is a power game that requires primarily weight training off the snow, plus maybe some plyometrics thrown in for the large numbers of Epic readers who are more fit than the junior racers for whom plyometrics are not recommended, is an interesting idea, but counter to reality.

THere are not too many former powerlifters who become elite bike racers, but there are a number of ex ski racers who end up racing bikes at a very high level.  There may be a reason for that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTKook 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylrwnzl 

 

Do you know what the word aerobic means in this context?

 

... 

Yes, but you clearly do not.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21679319  Here's just one helpful link. 

"Abstract

Alpine skiing is a recreational sport with high demands on the cardiovascular and neuromuscular systems. It is assumed that skiing could have positive effects on the decline in aerobic capacity, strength, and balance ability of older individuals. In a 12-week intervention study,..."

 

If you want to learn about the various energy sources the body utlizes during exercise, I suggest Google. 

 

For people with reading comprehension issues, I did not say that skiing equates to marathoning.   However, the average ski run at a bigger mountain does take at least as long as the average middle distance track race, and the average skier does undertake that sustained exertion, with "high demands on the cardiovascular...systems"  8 to maybe 15 times a day. 

 

The idea of skiing put forward by some on here, that it is a power game that requires primarily weight training off the snow, plus maybe some plyometrics thrown in for the large numbers of Epic readers who are more fit than the junior racers for whom plyometrics are not recommended, is an interesting idea, but counter to reality.

 

THere are not too many former powerlifters who become elite bike racers, but there are a number of ex ski racers who end up racing bikes at a very high level.  There may be a reason for that.

Again, that does not say it is an aerobic activity it says it increases aerobic capacity. You are confusing exercise that has a positive affect on the aerobic system with aerobic exercise. Lots of anaerobic exercise activities increase aerobic capacity just due to the nature of working your cardiovascular system. For instance wind sprints are an anaerobic activity, but they will have positive affects on your cardiovascular system. 

Let me lay out a basic definition between the two.

Aerobic exercise is sustained throughout the length of the activity. In terms of sports think of something like soccer or basketball where the athlete is constantly moving back and forth on the surface. 

Anaerobic exercise does not mean that its less beneficial or anything like that. It simply means that the exercise is broken up by periods of intense effort followed by periods of rest. That is by definition what skiing is. Now you could narrow it down and say that a very long ski run is an aerobic workout, but the term skiing implies the entire days event which is periods of intense effort followed by rest. Unless you are hiking or skinning after each run, then it would be considered aerobic. 

I like your explanation, however you seem to contradict yourself in the last sentence.

If you are skiing real hard for 90 seconds - say a steep bump run, not too long.  Then when you stop you are "sucking wind" and really must stop, then that is anaerobic exercise.  If you ski a long run and get to the bottom without being winded, that would be aerobic exercise.  If when you got to the bottom and there was no lift.. and you hiked or skinned back up, that would be aerobic.  Anaerobic exercise cannot be sustained.  Aerobic exercise is more of a steady state.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTKook 

.

 

THere are not too many former powerlifters who become elite bike racers

Two ends of the spectrum,I'll take neither as it relates to skiing

I've had the opportunity to regularly watch elite national team x country and dh athletes train at a facility near my home that I use.  The workouts for each discipline have similarities and distinct differences, which makes sense because x-country skiers train for endurance for the most part and dh train for power over shorter periods.   These folks dryland have similarities, but the balance of the workouts is shifted cross the disciplines.

The X country athletes do some  plyo, some weights, occasional power lifting, a lot of core, and huge amounts aerobic endurance training and intervals (anaerobic).     The dh athletes do a lot of plyo, strength, Olympic lifting, and core.  Although the focus is less on endurance aerobic training, this is still part of the program while including interval training.  Both groups do agility exercises, upper body strength, flexibility, etc.   During dryland, both groups get into the gym a fair amount, but the focus of the gym work has a different emphasis.  This reflects what they need for their sport…. x –country folks must be able to sustain work over long periods (sometime hours) whereas dh folks must sustain intense power over short time periods.  All of these people are excellent athletes, but the emphasis is in developing endurance and speed for the x-country skiers and power, speed and some endurance for the dhers.  Nonetheless, to be good at each sport, there must be balance.  Both groups need  agility, strength, endurance, and power.  Both groups spend most of their time actually skiing (when snow is available) but dryland is an integral part of what they do.

For me, balance is necessary for my own training for skiing and biking (my two main sports).  That is why I include lifting, including power lifting, throughout the year.  Having said that, I’m training for a 4 day mtb stage race this July/August, and I have decreased the number of gym sessions.  Once the race is over, I’ll gradually build up the strength training in anticipation for skiing.  I feel best with dh skiing when I maintain balanced training over the course of the winter which includes ski skating, strength and power lifting, core, some spinning (including both long slow and interval) and back country skiing.   I also believe that having a good level of strength from lifting (in addition to the other stuff I do) decreases the chances of injury when skiing.  I have no claims to being an elite athlete – far from it – but maintaining balance in training, I believe, keeps my old body in good working order and absolutely improves both my performance and enjoyment of the sports that I do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylrwnzl 

 

 

Again, that does not say it is an aerobic activity it says it increases aerobic capacity. You are confusing exercise that has a positive affect on the aerobic system with aerobic exercise. Lots of anaerobic exercise activities increase aerobic capacity just due to the nature of working your cardiovascular system. For instance wind sprints are an anaerobic activity, but they will have positive affects on your cardiovascular system. 

 

Let me lay out a basic definition between the two.

 

Aerobic exercise is sustained throughout the length of the activity. In terms of sports think of something like soccer or basketball where the athlete is constantly moving back and forth on the surface. 

Dude.  Soccer involves a lot of suddent bursts and a lot of standing around.  Actually, not dissimilar to tennis in that way.  Very seldom in either soccer or singles tennis are you going to have a full two minutes, say, of sustained effort.  Doubles tennis, obviously even less so.  Skiing?  Yes.  View a continuum.  Motocross is more aerobic than skiing, e.g., but like skiing uses a range of energy systems and like skiing, many top athletes train by among other things spinning on a road bike.  The reason that spinning on a road bike can be so effective relates to the demands of the sport.  Google those energy sources again. 

I did not say that skiing is as aerobic as marathoning -- of course, running the mile is not, either, and most people would agree that, while milers are more out of breath at the end of a race than ski racers generally are, milers are still very aerobically fit, and being a middle distance runner is a fairly aerobic thing (whereas being a pure sprinter is not). 

Once you get down to the level of how best to train for it, and where the energy that powers the activity is coming from, skiing is, again, surprisingly aerobic.  A ski run is not 10 secoinds of all-out effort that leaves you gasping for breath and unable to maintain technique, or even stand, on the 11th second.  It is what it is.   45 seconds to sometimes 3 or so minutes of sustained effort for intense, world-class performances, that require technique and coordination be maintained (i.e. you cannot completely redline) and for recreational skiers often even 10 or more minutes of sustained effort, repeated throughout the day, when at bigger mountains.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriponsnow 

Ok... I'm going to pull the pro card! As a PT/CSCS, there is next to no aerobic component to skiing unless you are terribly deconditioned to start. Second, the longest WC runs are lesser than 90 seconds in nature. Most rec skiers stop 10 times on the way down a 700 ft mtn.
Skiing is almost as pure anaerobic as you can get.
Let's get back on track w the thread, what are folks up to this weekend?

This pretty much shows that you may be a great PT, but know jack about the physical demands of skiing, and for that matter have a very limited view of the range of recreational skiers.  The longest DH races are well over 2 minutes, some big mountain descents, likewise; many rec skiers will do things like ski top to bottom @ Jackson or Snowbird with no or few stops.  I've done tram laps at Snowbird with a 7 year old with the first one with no stops -- not fast, but slow and steady. 

Your pro card is revoked.

Spring training... 

Highline Trail today had several areas of avalanche debris across the trail.  This one was was at least 50 feet wide at the trail intersection.  

Last Sunday - the other side of the valley -  no snow on the sunny side  - 4.5 hours in the saddle -  actual riding time

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTKook 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriponsnow 

Ok... I'm going to pull the pro card! As a PT/CSCS, there is next to no aerobic component to skiing unless you are terribly deconditioned to start. Second, the longest WC runs are lesser than 90 seconds in nature. Most rec skiers stop 10 times on the way down a 700 ft mtn.
Skiing is almost as pure anaerobic as you can get.
Let's get back on track w the thread, what are folks up to this weekend?

This pretty much shows that you may be a great PT, but know jack about the physical demands of skiing, and for that matter have a very limited view of the range of recreational skiers.  The longest DH races are well over 2 minutes, some big mountain descents, likewise; many rec skiers will do things like ski top to bottom @ Jackson or Snowbird with no or few stops.  I've done tram laps at Snowbird with a 7 year old with the first one with no stops -- not fast, but slow and steady. 

 

Your pro card is revoked.

...oh wait you are serious. Lets see, Bryan has years and years of training, sits on one of the top skiing safety councils in the country, and works with rehabbing skiers all the time. He knows skiing. Have you read his workout regimen that this thread is about? I'm pretty sure he knows a heck of a lot more about classifications of physical exercise and training than you do too.

What is your information based on? I've yet to see any source other than your claim of 'well its common knowledge' (excepting the study you posted the abstract to earlier that was misapplied and taken out of context).

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTKook 

.   45 seconds to sometimes 3 or so minutes of sustained effort

Right smack in the glycolytic pathway,  Anaerobic

Regarding the aerobic vs anaerobic debate.  From a personal perspective, unless I actually do sustained aerobic exercise during the winter, my aerobic capacity in the spring is much lower - even with dh skiing three or more days per week.  I suspect that most people would say the same.  Yes, skiing long runs without stopping (e.g. Kicking Horse top to bottom - 4130 feet) requires good endurance, but it does not lead to the same level aerobic fitness that an aerobically sustained sport does.   A ten run day at Kicking Horse (41,000 vert) is more like doing moderate intensity intervals with long gondola rests all day than doing a pure sustained aerobic workout even if each run is skied non-stop.  All exercise utilizes aerobic respiration; however, the muscles switch to anaerobic respiration during explosive exercise and intense exercise to supplement aerobic respiration.   One could ski relaxed and never reach an explosive or intense level that requires anaerobic respiration, but with the short duration of most ski runs, this would not facilitate aerobic conditioning very much.  Skiing  a lot during the winter does contribute to power - again, from a personal level, I have good power for biking short hill climbs (e.g. two to five minutes) in the spring, but it takes training time to feel good on longer hill climbs (e.g., over 20 minutes).  This reflects the adaptation that my body has made with respect to skiing - i.e., short and intense periods of work - not sustained aerobic conditioning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriponsnow 


Just for clarity, I've raced or coached nearly every venue on the continent. Unless you are a member of the USST, you will rarely encounter a 2' run unless the above holds true.

Uhh...you'd said that "Second, the longest WC runs are lesser than 90 seconds in nature. Most rec skiers stop 10 times on the way down a 700 ft mtn."  What you'd said just happened to be demonstrably false, and you got called on it.  The recreational skier can often encounter  runs much longer than two minutes, as I'd also said, and which you also tried to contradict. 

It is what it is.  Maybe pay attention to the actual nature and demands of the sport?  Just as plyos and O-lifts don't make for good middle distance running training, someone deciding that skiing is as anaerobic as it gets, and training with that in mind, would imo be poorly served.

All you experts sure do make this sound complicated.

Can you please get back to basics for those of us following along.

I seem to recall learning long ago that aerobic was where oxygen was continually supplied by the lungs and circulation system at the needed rate, and anerobic was where the muscles used more oxygen than could be supplied, running up an oxygen debt. 

I don't recall any requirements that the aerobic activity had to last for 1/2 an hour or anything like that. 

BTW I am a recreational skier, always have been.  Unless I'm waiting for someone to catch up, or get ahead I ski top to bottom.  I'm guesssing that when I have "felt the burn" at the bottom of a mogul run, i was doing anaerobic skiing, but when I was out of shape and breathing hard all the way down the hill with no changes in breathing rate, heart rate, or changes in my sensations of need for more oxygen, that I was doing aerobic exercise.  I would say most my runs on a decent sized hill are a mixture of aerobic skiing with bits of aneorbic activity (e.g. not crumpling up like a pretzel in a compression, hard turn or combination of both) frequently thrown in.