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Does tipping order matter ?

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 

 When skiing in a way that 2 skis are engaged & tipped on edge in a turn.

 

What edge should be tipped first & or lead in the angle of tipping & which one secound ? When releasing the edges which one should be released first ? 

 

                                        TIPPING

 

 

 A)  Little toe side inside ski tips first & or leads in tipping then big toe side outside ski tips or closely follows in tipping

 

B)  Big toe side outside ski tips first & or leads in tipping then little toe side tips & or follows in tipping

 

 

C) Try to tip both @ the same time ( of course one would most likely tip one ski  sooner then other but would be hard to measure)

 

 

 

 

                         RELEASING

 

 

 A) both edges same time

 

 

 B) little toe edge first   ( might be easier less weight)

 

 

C) Big toe edge first

 

 

 

 

post #2 of 13

LTE of inside ski first for sure for tipping. Release should be two-footed ideally, getting off the old outside ski quickly so it can start tipping as the new inside. In my opinion, of course.

post #3 of 13

The new inside ski should lead for both disengaging the old edge and engaging the new edges. The disengage and re-engage of edges should be one movement anyway so we'd be better off talking about which leg initiates the transition movement. There is however only a very small amount of time difference and should probably feel like both legs tipping simultaneously.


The reasoning behind my thoughts is simple. The leg/knee of the new inside ski needs to make room for the outside leg/knee. If you take it to extremes sitting down as a test; move your new outside leg without moving your new inside leg. You'll see it can only move as far as your stationary new inside leg. If you lead slightly moving your new inside leg first you will notice you have all the room in the world to move your new outside leg.

 

I hope i have explained myself well enough and am not talking in circles ;)

post #4 of 13

I trained with a Japan National team member and he was coached to always turn the uphill ski 1st. I was trained (when lift tickets were 6 duckets ) to turn the down hill ski 1st. I have found/coached that you want to turn both skis at the same time with your knees/ankles/hips etc are always in the the same position and i know i can do this every turn when the sky is blue and there is hero/cheater snow on the ground! When i cannot see, do not know the run, or starting 109 out of 110 racers i cannot do or will not be able to turn both skis at the same time. I believe its fear or lack of ability and my survival ski mode has taught me how to turn 1st on either or both skis that has kept me from getting hurt. I think if you work both skis you will ski another day.

post #5 of 13
Thread Starter 

I was watching a ski video & the guy said always lead tipping with LTE first but he didnt say why. He then went on to say that it was the exact opposite that most skiers do & most skiers lead with BTE.

 

 I never gave it much thought before & Iam not sure what I was doing but I kinda think I must be leading with LTE because I often ski with feet close togeather & my tips very seldom cross.

 

 

 If I was leading with BTE I think my tips would want to cross.

 

 Skiers that ski in wedge from get go are developing edging skills on BTE. Then when they go to parrell their tipping of LTE is not as well developed so maybe it is easier to lead with BTE & is the reason why they want to cross thier skis & they never or find it hard to start leading with LTE.

 

 

post #6 of 13

(C) PSIA believes that edge change should be simultaneous for parallel turns.

It does not matter which ski is in the lead, they both can be tipped exactly at the same time. The new outside ski should be in the lead at the beginning of the new turn. This will facilitate starting the turn in a countered position and enable balancing against the new outside ski.

 

Please note a caveat on the term "should". Should is not meant to imply a right or wrong way to ski. Should implies ideal for most efficient. We need to acknowledge that there can be many reasons for choosing non-ideal technique.

 

Technically, wedge turns never release an edge. Skiers who are properly taught wedge turns are taught to initiate turns with a "release" of the new inside ski via a movement of the center of mass over the inside ski and a flattening of that ski. Proper wedge turns use movements that are directly usable for parallel turns. 

post #7 of 13

The Rusty,

 

I believe Crazzy Legs was describing the many skiers who were NOT taught wedge turns properly. These skiers exhibit easy-to-see but difficult-to-eradicate movement patterns, typically including a sequential turn initiation that shows a reluctance to release the new inside ski until AFTER the new outside ski is firmly planted on the BTE. This leads to a reluctant, stemmed beginning to each turn, particularly on terrain perceived to be challenging.

 

***

Crazzy Legs,

 

Instructors may combat an over-emphasis on the BTE/new outside ski by getting students to focus on releasing/tilting the LTE/new inside ski FIRST. They're trying to break old habits and build new sensations and movements.

 

The goal, eventually, is simultaneous RELEASE (the first step) and TIPPING (the second step) of both skis. As FlyingMidgets correctly noted, what you split into two questions is really two phases of a single, continuous movement. As our skis rotate from one set of edges to the other, they must at some point transition through being flat. It's all one movement.

 

BTW, the release/tilt move should begin from our feet and ankles, not with big moves of the knees, legs or hips. Focus on skiing with very relaxed feet and ankles. Then initiate each turn by just rolling them. The big move of angulating legs and knees comes later as you shape the middle and end of the turn. An instructor at Taos recently got me skiing more like this. When we started I was initiating turns with big leg or knee moves. Trying to follow him down steep, narrow bump and tree lines was like, "YIKES - I can't keep up!" Once he got me to relax feet and ankles and initiate by just rolling them, saving the big knee/leg moves for later in the turn, I started chasing him down those same lines with a "WOO-HOO - let's dance!"

 

post #8 of 13
Thread Starter 

 Thanks, guys

 

 I wanted to get a better understanding as to why the guy in video said it was best to start tipping with LTE first

 

When getting air between turns such as porposing in & out of powder the LTE is most likely engauging first if legs are extended out equaly because it would be the first ski landing. It might be a good thing this happens naturaly for skiers like me that keep skis tight togeather when skiing powder because if the out side one landed first I kinda think the tips would want to cross because it would be turning first & as the snow became denser as the ski sinks if the outside ski sunk further then the inside it would have firmer snow to bank against causing it to turn sharper. Since the inside ski sinks lower when porpoising in & out of powder it has firmer snow to bank against then outside ski & is perhaps the reason I can never remember crossing my tips when skiing powder.

post #9 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

(C) PSIA believes that edge change should be simultaneous for parallel turns.

It does not matter which ski is in the lead, they both can be tipped exactly at the same time. The new outside ski should be in the lead at the beginning of the new turn. This will facilitate starting the turn in a countered position and enable balancing against the new outside ski.

 

Please note a caveat on the term "should". Should is not meant to imply a right or wrong way to ski. Should implies ideal for most efficient. We need to acknowledge that there can be many reasons for choosing non-ideal technique.

 

Technically, wedge turns never release an edge. Skiers who are properly taught wedge turns are taught to initiate turns with a "release" of the new inside ski via a movement of the center of mass over the inside ski and a flattening of that ski. Proper wedge turns use movements that are directly usable for parallel turns. 

 

+1

 

Edge release/initiation should be simultaneous as COM crosses over the BOS (or BOS crosses under COM, depending on turn). That's an ideal turn, at least. Sometimes the most practical turn for a situation is not an ideal turn. In those cases a sequential edge release/initiation may be called for. And the order of release and engagement will vary depending on on the situation. At times, I may release one edge and keep another engaged to create a 'crabbing' move. I may use a christie move due to space constraints, as a speed check, or as a recovery maneuver.

 

Long story short, aim for a simultaneous release. Adjust as necessary for what's in front of you.
 

 

post #10 of 13

One of the best ways I've heard it described is 2 edges to 4 edges to 2 edges.  This means as the Center Of Mass moves across the skis you transition from the "uphill edges" (2 edges) to flat skis (4 edges) to "downhill edges" (2 edges).  A good parallel skier will be going for smooth simultaneous tipping.

post #11 of 13

2-4-2

 

post #12 of 13


Quote:

Originally Posted by Krazzy Legs View Post

 Thanks, guys

 

 I wanted to get a better understanding as to why the guy in video said it was best to start tipping with LTE first

 

When getting air between turns such as porposing in & out of powder the LTE is most likely engauging first if legs are extended out equaly because it would be the first ski landing. It might be a good thing this happens naturaly for skiers like me that keep skis tight togeather when skiing powder because if the out side one landed first I kinda think the tips would want to cross because it would be turning first & as the snow became denser as the ski sinks if the outside ski sunk further then the inside it would have firmer snow to bank against causing it to turn sharper. Since the inside ski sinks lower when porpoising in & out of powder it has firmer snow to bank against then outside ski & is perhaps the reason I can never remember crossing my tips when skiing powder.


Makes sense to this non-instructor, and if you've never crossed tips in powder then your legs ain't all THAT crazzy! wink.gif

 

In the 2-4-2 video posted by Phoenix, check out the air and landing @ 1:24. In the air he's in something resembling mid-turn position, in that his legs and skis are angulated out to the side (an "airplane turn", as the Egans tried to teach me). However, unlike the position he'd be in if he were actually turning with skis on snow, while in the air and at touchdown his legs are equally extended - a minor stylistic variation. Because his inside ski engages first it begins carving first and this causes his tips to DIVERGE momentarily. Once he sinks further to absorb the landing his outside ski eventually engages and all is soon parallel again. This proves your point by demonstrating the opposite effect from the opposite cause.
 

 

post #13 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazzy Legs View Post

 Thanks, guys

 

 I wanted to get a better understanding as to why the guy in video said it was best to start tipping with LTE first

 

When getting air between turns such as porposing in & out of powder the LTE is most likely engauging first if legs are extended out equaly because it would be the first ski landing. It might be a good thing this happens naturaly for skiers like me that keep skis tight togeather when skiing powder because if the out side one landed first I kinda think the tips would want to cross because it would be turning first & as the snow became denser as the ski sinks if the outside ski sunk further then the inside it would have firmer snow to bank against causing it to turn sharper. Since the inside ski sinks lower when porpoising in & out of powder it has firmer snow to bank against then outside ski & is perhaps the reason I can never remember crossing my tips when skiing powder.

He probably said it because if that is what you are thinking, then you will make the right movements. There are some who argue that tipping with the LTE automatically causes simultaneous BTE tipping.

 

When skiing powder it helps to think of both skis as one unit and use functional tension in your muscles to actively resist external forces that attempt to influence one ski unequally over the other. Have you ever skied in foot deep powder with a one inch crust on top? Density can vary at any level in the snowpack. A skier has to use force to smooth out the differences.
 

 

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