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# What is best edge angle for max grip

What is the edge angle that allows for the most edge grip. If a ski is put on an edge angle higher then 45 degrees would it not start to lose grip past the 45 degree angle ?

I was trying to figure out how wide of a ski to buy. If I buy to narrow when high on edge the boot will drag through snow. If I buy to wide There is to much leverage for putting the ski up on edge quickly. So no sense in going any wider then that which would allow for max edge grip.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krazzy Legs

If a ski is put on an edge angle higher then 45 degrees would it not start to lose grip past the 45 degree angle ?

A working practical answer requires you to make some assumptions about how much the ski bites into the surface (and to have grip at all it has to have some penetration into the surface).

There is no single answer for all skis and all surfaces.

thanks, Cantunamuch

A turn will create centrifical force & the tighter the turn the more centrifical force.

The centrifical force energy I think can be used to drive the edge deeper into the snow but would also be used to cause the ski to skid accross the snow. Would there not be a precise angle where the percentage of the G forces to cause the ski to drive deeper into the snow be @ the highest ? Also is there a precise angle where the ski will be the sharpest to cut into the snow? Maybe the centrifical force energy can not be directed down ? but only @ the angle of travel which would be the same angle as the slope of the hill.

Based on tracks skiers leave it seams the G forces can cause a ski to dig deeper in the snow.

It's the MINIMUM angle and engagement with the snow needed to support the load that you are looking for.  After that,  It's just drag.

Ice skates represent one extreme.

I would sure love to hear what the centrifical force energy is? Maybe we can talk about Christoffel symbols and time curved manifolds after.

I was just asking the Blizzard rep for western Canada as to the edge bevel on my Bonafides. He said it was .7*base, 2*side and that if I changed the base bevel from .7 to 1 it would make the ski less grippy and more forgiving.

I try desperately to keep my a** off the snow, that's (cyphering....go"s in ta, Pie are not round)  Um keeping my body less than 90 degrees from vertical....(I think, maybe...)

Slider?  can you google that and see if I have it more or less correct?

BTW if I get to gathering next year let me buy you a beer!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazzy Legs

What is the edge angle that allows for the most edge grip. If a ski is put on an edge angle higher then 45 degrees would it not start to lose grip past the 45 degree angle ?

I was trying to figure out how wide of a ski to buy. If I buy to narrow when high on edge the boot will drag through snow. If I buy to wide There is to much leverage for putting the ski up on edge quickly. So no sense in going any wider then that which would allow for max edge grip.

Regarding booting out: Even if you're skiing on a skinny 65mm ski, you'll have to tip well over 60ish degrees to boot out. (how fat are your boots?) See this thread. If you're really concerned, you could use a plate to rise your boot to enable greater tipping. However, on the wider end of the ski spectrum, you're completely right that it takes more effort to put skis high on edge quickly. On the other hand, the amount of edging is only one factor in your turn shape. There's also ski stiffness both across the ski and torsionally, the amount of pivoting, the amount of pressure against the ski, snow conditions, etc...

To me, the question of the maximum possible edge angle seems highly theoretical. From a practical perspective, I try not to overthink it as few people ever approach a maximum edge angle.

We need some of those racer pics with the single edge engaged with the athletes knee almost on the snow ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spooky

I would sure love to hear what the centrifical force energy is? Maybe we can talk about Christoffel symbols and time curved manifolds after.

I haven't thought about those for 30 years.  Scratch that.  I'm GLAD I haven't thought about those in 30 years.

Thanks guys

Metaphore, thanks for link, my boots are 98mm , You could be right I most likely dont have to worry & I am over thinking. I dont have a lot of experince on shaped skis & my straight skis are most likely about 61mm underfooot so boot out is easy on outside ski in large turns if feet wide apart. In the 90s I demoed a shaped ski & booted out on large carved turns but I think they had a very narrow waist. I tried a pair of 135cm shaped skis  70mm waist about 3/4 in rise for carving & I got no boot out on the carved turns. I think I should be okay buying a ski with a 65mm waist  because I bought some knee binding & the lift is something like 1 1/4 inches & a narrow waist will be quicker for short brush carved turns down fall line which I prefure to do most of the time.

I'm having difficulty believing that you're booting out and not just loosing the downhill edge from pilot error. I only say this because we raced for years on skinny skis w/o plates, achieved high edge angles, and hardly ever truly booted out. When you do with the downhill ski loaded up to the degree necessary to get the edge angles near the boot surface, the resulting crash happens the instant the boot contacts the snow. On a side note, really deep tracks left in groomed piste say more about issues with fore/aft pressure management than anything else. You tip up and pressure only enough to make the turn you want. No more, no less. Too much 'more' makes trenches. 'Just right' leaves nice fast parallel pencil lines.

Mark

You could be right it could be a misjudgement on my part. Because of the firmness of the snow in a race course the ski does not sink much whould not subtract from width of ski. In ripe corn snow (not mash potatoes) that has been groomed the night before with no tracks I thought I was getting boot out on my narrow straights in large turns only on outside ski feet wide apart. The type of corn that allows excellent edge grip & turns can be made on a dine with 9 cents change. (if doing  short turns)  On my wider powder skis I think I get higher angles in same snow conditions & I never feel as though Iam getting boot out.

The most grip would be the most acute angle, but even if strength of grip and instant response are the over-ruling priorities, and even if you are a very highly skilled ice skier, the point of diminishing returns is somewhere around 0 degrees base and 6 degrees side. However, for most of us, 0.5 3 is a better compromise for most conditions, and 0, 5 is about as high as anyone would want to push it on ice; we would probably find the closer to 0 base, once past 0.5 and the further above 4 side, the harder it is to be smooth and it would actually make things worse.

If the snow isn't boiler plate, the boot can cut an extra line beside your ski's track without lifting the ski out of the groove.  Boot out is not a problem on hero snow.  Although, if your boot can sink into the snow, the edge angle of your tune isn't going to matter too much.

I see your beer skier j and raise you a pitcher in Montana and your pretty close.

http://www.real-world-physics-problems.com/physics-of-skiing.html

Also Ron LeMaster- Ultimate Skier

http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/the-planes-and-axes-in-skiing

Krazzy Legs--I suspect that it's a bit more complicated than you've been imagining--or perhaps less. The surprising fact is that edge angle on the snow surface has nothing to do with how well a ski grips or slips. Nothing! Indeed, there are many situations where a ski with a higher edge angle will not hold and carve as well as a ski with a lower angle. "Booting out" is one of them, of course, but there are other situations too. I'll get to that later, but let's look first at how edging influences a ski's grip, if the edge angle on the snow has nothing to do with it.

There are two ways (at least) to measure and describe edge angle, and they are both important in skiing but for different reasons. The first and most common is to describe the edge angle relative to the snow surface. The second--and the one that matters here--is to describe the edge angle relative to the force the skier applies to the ski. This is the intriguing concept often called "critical edge angle," or more recently "platform angle" (both terms originated, I believe, by Ron LeMaster). We've discussed these things before at EpicSki, but it's time to raise them again because they're very relevant to your original post. It's not easy to explain, from my experience, but once you get it, it may create an "ahah!" experience that brings many things into focus. Here goes....

"Critical Edge Angle" or "Platform Angle"
Imagine standing still on a very slippery, icy staircase. If the steps are level or tilted slightly toward the staircase, you won't slip off. But if the steps tilt out away from the staircase, you're probably doomed. Here's a crude illustration of what I'm describing:

Fig. 1. When the platform is level (A), you won't slip off no matter how slippery the surface because the force you apply to the step (straight down, due to gravity) is perpendicular to the step surface. When the step tilts toward the "hill," as in B, gravity tends to pull you toward the staircase. But when the platform tips away from the hill as in C, gravity will cause you to slip off the step.

Assuming the edge is sharp enough, a ski with pressure on it will carve a little "step" in the snow surface very similar to the steps of the staircase in the example in Fig. 1. When standing still or traversing across the hill in a straight line, gravity's straight-down pull is the only significant force, so the angle of the step cut by the edge works the same way as the steps on the icy staircase. When the ski edge is level (perpendicular to the downward pull of gravity) as in skier A1 or tilted a little toward the hill (B1), the ski will hold. When the edge tips downhill slightly (skier C1), it releases as the force of gravity literally pushes the ski out of its little notch, off its step. Here's an illustration:

Fig. 2. When standing still or traversing, the force applied to the ski (red arrows) is vertical, due solely to gravity acting on the center of mass. Skiers A1 and B1 will hold because the "platform angle" is 90 degrees (A1) or less (B1) from the angle of the force applied to the ski edge. Skier C1 will slip, just like the person standing on the slippery, tilted step above (C). Note the small notches or "steps" carved into the snow by the skis, very similar to the steps on the staircase in the first illustration.

In the second illustration, it's important to note that it does not matter how steep the hill itself is. The steeper the hill, the greater the edge angle relative to the snow surface, but the angles of the "steps"--the "platform angles"--do not change. In other words, you really do not need to tip your skis any more to hold on a steep slope than you do on a shallow slope. As we've all experienced, all it really takes to hold an edge when standing across a hill or traversing is a little ankle tension to cause just slight angulation to tip the skis to "critical edge angle" of level or slightly tipped into the hill. Likewise, releasing the edge to start a new turn involves little more than relaxing the ankle (or ankles) to let go of the mountain and let the skis slip.

Finally, in a turn, other forces arise. Centrifugal force, resulting from the turn itself, pulls out away from the center of the turn, and we lean (incline) into the turn for balance. (Please do not argue about centrifugal force here--no matter how you may prefer to explain the phenomenon, your body knows perfectly well that it needs to lean into a turn for balance!) These combined forces and the resulting lean of the body (center of mass) cause the direction of the force applied to the ski to tip away from vertical. As we incline into the turn, our skis naturally tip to a higher angle against the snow surface (unless we work hard to prevent it), but the critical edge angle that creates the platform angle stays the same, relative to the now-tilted force. And the ski's tendency to grip or slip depends as before on that angle--not on the edge angle on the snow. In other words, it is the shape of the skier's body--"angulation" or the lack thereof in ankles, knees, hips, and spine--that determines grip, NOT the degree of inclination, which largely influences the ski's edge angle on the snow.

Fig. 3. Here, skier A2 is standing still or traversing and therefore "vertical." His ski grips because of slight angulation (lateral angles, essentially) in the ankles, knees, and hips, which creates the platform angle of less then 90 degrees to the (vertical) force applied to the ski. Skier B2 is in almost exactly the same posture as skier A2, but because he is turning, his whole body--and skis--tip into the turn. The platform angle remains the same as skier A2, even though the edge angle on the snow has increased. Skier C2, even though his edge angle on the snow is about the same as skier A2, does not hold because he is "banking"--leaning his upper body into the turn and causing the platform angle to increase greater than 90 degrees to the angle of the force he applies to his ski.

So that's "critical edge angle" or "platform angle" in a nutshell. Basically, if the ski is tipped perpendicular or to an acute angle with the line of force, the ski will tend to hold. When tipped to an obtuse angle (greater than 90 degrees) to the line of force, the force will tend to push the ski right off its platform and cause it to skid, no matter how high the edge angle on the snow surface. (Of course, if you want to get picky and technical, factors such as the ski's torsional stiffness--how much it twists along its length when tipped on edge--come into play, skewing the numbers somewhat. Overall sharpness, base and side edge bevels, and snow conditions factor in as well.)

---

So, if it does not influence the ski's ability to hold, what DOES edge angle on the snow do? It plays an entirely different, but no less important, role, and as skiers, we must control both edge angle on the snow AND platform angle independently, but simultaneously, continuously, and accurately. Essentially, a ski's edge angle on the snow, combined with its sidecut radius (and sufficient pressure to bend the ski, properly located), influences the size of the turn the ski "tries" to carve, as the following illustration shows:

Fig. 4. On hard snow, the higher the edge angle (on the snow), the tighter radius turn the ski wants to carve. The basic formula is sidecut radius X cosine of edge angle = carving radius. (In soft and deeper conditions, sidecut and edge angle are less significant, as it is primarily the ski's flotation and flexibility, combined with the amount and location of pressure on it, that causes it to bend.)

Here too, the simple formula represents only an approximation, as torsional stiffness, flex pattern, sidecut shape, fore-aft pressure distribution, snow conditions, and other skier movements and factors all influence ultimate turn shape and carving radius. And, of course, in powder, crud, and other soft-snow conditions, sidecut plays a much less significant role.

How can a ski hold LESS well when tipped to a higher edge angle?
Because edge angle on the snow plays such a significant role in the carving radius of a turn, too much edge angle can actually cause a ski to hold less well than "just enough" edge angle. Especially at high edge angles of 45 degrees and up, a slight change in edge angle can have a tremendous influence on the ski's carving radius. For example, an edge angle (on the snow) of 60 degrees (cosine = .5) creates a theoretical carving radius of one half the ski's sidecut radius. Increasing the edge angle just 15 degrees further from 60 degrees to 75 degrees (cosine = .26) nearly cuts the theoretical carving radius in half again--about one quarter of the ski's sidecut radius! When the ski bends into a tighter radius arc than the turn the skier is trying to make, it will not carve--or hold--nearly as well as when tipped to the optimal angle. Conversely, if you let the ski tighten the turn to whatever radius it bends into, it will cause a dramatic increase in the g-forces (centrifugal force) caused by the turn. That can cause the snow itself to break away under the load, and can also increase the stress on the body, making it more difficult to sustain the intense force--either way resulting in the ski skidding because of too-high edge angles.

---

Whew! Well, that was a good exercise for me, as I've wanted to create some illustrations to try to help explain some of these technical concepts. I hope they help clarify some interesting technical details and potential paradoxes of skiing! As others have suggested, Krazzy Legs, it is at least possible that what you've described as "booting out" could be due to some of the other reasons that skis will break away and slip or skid due to extremely high edge angles, as I just described. Of course, it could be that you've booted out, too. It does happen, especially on very narrow skis without much "lift" under the boots. And some boots are wider and more prone to booting out than others.

If you have some video....

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
PS--here's an animation that I made several years ago in an attempt to illustrate Critical Edge Angle:

Thanks for the reminder, Ghost!

...and another animation from the same time, that shows how platform angle/critical edge angle changes through turns to allow edges to grip and shape the turn in the shaping phase, then release to start the new turn. I tried to show also how the slope angle affects edge angle on the snow as the turn progresses, and how the center of mass moves about with changes in body position, the balance point changes smoothly from foot to foot, and a few other things, but I was never convinced that this animation worked very well. You have to watch it a bit, at the very least!

Best regards,
Bob

Bob

Thanks for taking the time & energy to do such an amazing job to make it easier to understand the concepts involved in edgeing. (much appriciated)

You should write a book

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazzy Legs

Bob

An encyclopedia.

Bob

I read some of the reviews of your book & after the picture perfect words & pictures you used for making crystal clear understanding I can see why everyone was giving it a 5 out of 5 star with very positive comments.

On all the differnt sites I have posted no one has ever replied to any of my posts with so much quality

This is great stuff. Have a question: Impact of angle of the ski edge, rather than edge angle. Assume that on hardpack, it isn't the ski base that's in contact with the slope, but the edge. Thus, (may be wrong) that the angles created by the base and side of the ski edge are assumed in these diagrams to be 90 degrees, eg., 0/0. But no one skis a 0/0 set. If we have say a 1/3, which is a typical aggressive non-racing hardpack edge prep, then I think (may be wrong) that the actual angle formed by the ski relative to the slope goes to 92 degrees, doesn't it? (90 + the diff between the acute 88 degree total edge angle and the actual slope, or 2 degrees.) Which means that you pick up 2 more degrees out over the slope, thus 2 more degrees to let your COM wander the wrong direction. Or of your COM is where it should be, 2 degrees more with which to change the turning radius of the ski. Yes? No? Maybe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond

This is great stuff. Have a question: Impact of angle of the ski edge, rather than edge angle. Assume that on hardpack, it isn't the ski base that's in contact with the slope, but the edge. Thus, (may be wrong) that the angles created by the base and side of the ski edge are assumed in these diagrams to be 90 degrees, eg., 0/0. But no one skis a 0/0 set. If we have say a 1/3, which is a typical aggressive non-racing hardpack edge prep, then I think (may be wrong) that the actual angle formed by the ski relative to the slope goes to 92 degrees, doesn't it? (90 + the diff between the acute 88 degree total edge angle and the actual slope, or 2 degrees.) Which means that you pick up 2 more degrees out over the slope, thus 2 more degrees to let your COM wander the wrong direction. Or of your COM is where it should be, 2 degrees more with which to change the turning radius of the ski. Yes? No? Maybe?

I'll take a stab at this.

Over the summer I read a paper or two that were 1) over my head and 2) full of math but discussed this in great detail.  What I do remember is that even on hard pack, the base of the ski is still the predominant contact point.  The metal edge cuts through and is "carving" a slot for the ski to ride in.  Also remember that even on hard pack, the base of the ski digs in deeper than the tip.  This has nothing to do with pressuring the tip but the design of the ski.

Here's a pic

So even on hard pack, you can see on the ski on the right, the tip slices through and the waist and tail form a platform.

Now, if you want to talk about skiing on ice, I believe you're on to something and explains why most have such a hard time holding an edge; no platform.

Here is a snapshot from the work the picture came out of.  144 pages of physicists describing skiing.   Yes, it was a very long summer.

Beyond,

It is the base edge that would be creating the platform angle. Remember, there is centrifugal force pulling you out of the turn. So, in your example you need to angulate .5 degrees more to compensate for the base bevel to get to the critical edge angle Bob describes.

Look at the last animation in Bob's post and you can see where the stickman uses more angulation to create a tighter turn ie tips the skis over further then necessary to simply hold.

It is true that most won't use a 90 degree edge on hard surfaces. The edge bevel creates a void between the surface and side edge of your ski to allow you adjust your edge angle without interference with the surface. If you use a 90 deg bevel then attempt to tip to a greater angle to the surface, the side edge could contact the surface causing your edge to be dislodged off of its platform.

yer on and I call

Quote:
Originally Posted by slider

I see your beer skier j and raise you a pitcher in Montana and your pretty close.

http://www.real-world-physics-problems.com/physics-of-skiing.html

Also Ron LeMaster- Ultimate Skier

http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/the-planes-and-axes-in-skiing

Good discussion, guys. L&AirC--I like the image from the simulation you referred to, showing the part of the ski typically engaged in hard vs. soft(er) snow. Of course, real snow varies from rock-hard ice to ultra-light deep powder, and skis run the gamut from very stiff to very soft, with varying flex patterns as well, and the fore-aft location of the center of pressure also plays a role...so the simulation shows just a couple examples from the spectrum of possibilities. I think it shows pretty much the same thing as the following illustration that shows skis sinking into and bending in soft snow. It's the soft-snow complement to "Figure 4" in my earlier post, which shows skis bending on very hard snow due to sidecut and edge angle.

Here, skis bend due to the foot pressing down in the middle while the snow presses up on the tip and tail, similar to how the ski would bend if you suspended its tip and tail on two chairs and pressed down in the middle. The radius of the bend depends on many factors, including snow density, overall ski flex and flex pattern (ie. even flex or stiffer tail), camber/rocker/"early rise," ski shape and "taper," skier weight, speed and turn radius (because these influence the force applied to the ski), ski width, and even, to some extent, sidecut, because it affects the ski width and thus the relative flotation of the tip, tail, and center of the ski.

Of course, booting out tend only to be a problem on hard snow.

Best regards,
Bob

PS--Krazzy Legs, if you don't mind, I'd like to move this thread to the "Instruction" section of EpicSki. I'll wait for your approval before I move it.

Bob

Done, KL. Thanks!

Best regards,
Bob

http://www.epicski.com/t/111959/back-to-basics

Re "edge angle to hold", more or less edge angle, to an extent, isn't going to make any difference.  Whether you hold (or not) for a given edge angle has to do with whether you're balanced against the ski, not over it. See LeMaster, I can't remember which book.  He has a chart where he shows what the difference in edge angle is really all about. We talk about 12.7M skis, or 12.3M skis. None of those numbers are gimmes. You have to do the right thing to make the ski carve an arc at those radiuses. But if you can carve at different edge angles, a 45 degree angle, for example, won't give you the same radius of turn that a 60 degree angle will, for the same ski.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazzy Legs

What is the edge angle that allows for the most edge grip. If a ski is put on an edge angle higher then 45 degrees would it not start to lose grip past the 45 degree angle ?

I was trying to figure out how wide of a ski to buy. If I buy to narrow when high on edge the boot will drag through snow. If I buy to wide There is to much leverage for putting the ski up on edge quickly. So no sense in going any wider then that which would allow for max edge grip.

To Krazzy Legs :-

SkiRacer55  has it well explained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazzy Legs

What is the edge angle that allows for the most edge grip. If a ski is put on an edge angle higher then 45 degrees would it not start to lose grip past the 45 degree angle ?

The answer to the question "What is best edge angle for max grip?" is: It depends on the radius of the turn and the speed.
Also, we assume you are attempting to carve cleanly on a hard surface.  That means all the "ah-but" stuff people throw in about snow quality, depth, temperature, what you ate for breakfast - can be assumed to be irrelevant.

The answer is: as has been covered above:  It doesn't matter what the slope angle is (up to the limits of carving that is), or how far over you are leaning.

Here's why:- You cut your own groove.  Your ski bears down on this groove at 90 Degrees to the "wall" of the cut groove.
If that isn't happening, then you're skidding. :-)

I look at it like this:

For each unique combination of forward speed and radius of turn you try to make; you need to have chosen the one and only edge angle in order to hold and not break away.

For Example:

(Do a "Google" for engineering calculations for inclined railway tracks. (I found this if it's of interest) There is only one unique speed for a given angle of track banking where the force of the weight of the locomotive goes at right angles down into the tracks.

Our skis make grooves like railtracks.  But we can vary the angle of inclination of the track - unlike the loco driver who must regulate speed exactly for every curve.)

You achieve this choice of speed and angle by feel.  If it isn't right you make subtle adjustments to the inclination, the speed, the radius of turn.  You change speed by choice of line. You don't need to throw them sideways.

Equipment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazzy Legs

I was trying to figure out how wide of a ski to buy. If I buy to narrow when high on edge the boot will drag through snow. If I buy to wide There is to much leverage for putting the ski up on edge quickly. So no sense in going any wider then that which would allow for max edge grip.

How wide of a ski to buy?

For instance - in the top levels of ski teaching exams, you have to choose one pair of skis. You can't nip back to the lodge to change.

On piste, your skis have to allow you to ski precisely , but also ski bumps and offpiste in all sorts of variable conditions.
So:-

I'd say: Go for a longish GS "Oversize" cut.  Long (e.g 180cm - 185cm) to give you support in the deep.  GS (e.g. 21m Recreational GS Sidecut radius). The longish sidecut radius? that means you can "separate the concerns" of establishing grip separate from carve turning a variable arc.
It also means they're not too wide underfoot - so this is faster edge-to-edge.  ("Disadvantage" is they don't float high in powder.  But that allows a more skilful 3D turn in powder where you move like a dolphin, diving deep and getting the vertical dimension up to the surface again.  If the ski is long enough and "oversize" (not competition cut), the ski will work well in powder for intermediates).

Carve Turn Range

GS Skis can carve a bigger range of radii than a ski of short sidecut radius. (Ski starts to carve at RTurn=RSidecut.  Then tighter as you lean them over in the turn.).
See this link to get the bend radius created for a particular edge angle applied during the turn for a  family of skis of different sidecut. (The assumption is reasonable that the bent ski will carve that radius out on the snow. As the angle is varied during the turn, the bend radius changes continuously during the turn).

GS skis if made to grip early using ankle pressure laterally, can then be leant over solidly as much as you can go to make continuous, tightly carved progressive arcs of decreasing and then increasing radius.
Once you have the edge gripping at the top of the turn, you can progressively apply edge angle at an increasing rate to get your chosen direction.
At high edge angles, you'll carve a 5m radius turn at the tightest part of the arc.  Once you have that new direction you can quicky reduce the edge angle and avoid grinding at the end of the turn.  This means you don't need collossal strength at the end of the turn; you'll carry more speed into the next turn and have plenty of time to feel for the new edge, grip, then whack-on a big edge to nail the next turn.

This isn't park-n-ride circular arc skiing. (Constant-radius long-arc). That would be an intermediates' turnshape and that's limited because at higher speeds, you'll never release the over-pressured outside ski at the end of the turn until you slow down a bit.

The GS Shape is for more accomplished skiers - It's dynamic, fast, grippy and will give control of speed and direction in the carve like a real expert.

If you go for short, tight sidecut skis, you have to be super-quick to establish the early grip.  You won't have time to do this if the ski is already whacking into a 10m curve on the slightest inclination.

Edited by Davey - 11/8/15 at 2:52am
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