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Icelantic Keepers - Page 2

post #31 of 52
5/15/12 at 3:02pm
Thanks for that further information. I"ll definitely get my 2012 Keepers stone ground and tuned at the shop before I take them out. I believe the factory bevels are 1/2. If they're anything like the Shamans - I note they have a similar side-cut and turning radius - they will need their tips and tails detuned.

One thing I like about the 2013 Keepers that the 2012s don't have is the black base.

Here is a link to a video from Icelantic on their 2013 line-up.

http://vimeo.com/36033370
Edited by Surly Bob - 5/15/12 at 4:55pm
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post #32 of 52
5/15/12 at 3:10pm
[
Edited by Surly Bob - 5/15/12 at 4:34pm
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post #33 of 52
5/15/12 at 3:20pm
I
Edited by Surly Bob - 5/15/12 at 4:33pm
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post #34 of 52
5/15/12 at 5:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post

YES!  this is very true, be very careful. I had a pair of Pilgrims that were so off, the guys at the shop were floored.  Funny story: I took them to Chile to ski; brand new just mounted up. they were OK in the soft but were crazy hooky and unbalanced in anything remotely firm or groomed. I skied so poorly and I couldn't figure out why I sucked so bad......  until we found out just how edge high they were and it all made sense. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cstreu1026 View Post

I like the new graphics.  Speaking of a factory stone grind someone told me that Iceltanic's skis weren't "finished" when they left the factory and require a tune before skiing.  Is there any truth to that because that was first time I had heard that but it would explain all the work I had to put in on the 2 pairs I've owned as well as a buddy's.

That is exactly how my Pilgrims skied. Both my Keepers and Pilgrims required some grinding to get them flat. My buddy bought a display model of the 2013 Shaman that were just dull. I needed having a local shop do a quick stone grind to make sure they were flat before I finished them by hand.
Edited by cstreu1026 - 5/17/12 at 9:24am
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post #35 of 52
5/17/12 at 9:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surly Bob View Post

Thanks for that further information. I"ll definitely get my 2012 Keepers stone ground and tuned at the shop before I take them out. I believe the factory bevels are 1/2. If they're anything like the Shamans - I note they have a similar side-cut and turning radius - they will need their tips and tails detuned.
One thing I like about the 2013 Keepers that the 2012s don't have is the black base.
Here is a link to a video from Icelantic on their 2013 line-up.
http://vimeo.com/36033370

 

i detune all my soft snow skis down to the contact points and then a couple inches further.  

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post #36 of 52
5/17/12 at 11:24am
Thread Starter 

I lightly detuned all the rocker on my Keepers down to the extended contact point when the camber is completely flexed out, which has been working fine for me, but I have not skied them on any really hard snow.

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post #37 of 52
5/17/12 at 12:11pm
So by "camber completely flexed out" you mean pressure is put on the ski so the bottom of the ski is flattened. Correct?
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post #38 of 52
5/17/12 at 3:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surly Bob View Post

So by "camber completely flexed out" you mean pressure is put on the ski so the bottom of the ski is flattened. Correct?

Yes, they gain a few cm of rocker front and back when they are flexed.  There are some other schools of thought on detuning rocker like increasing the bottom bevel and leaving them sharp instead of dulling them, but I am not too concerned about hard snow carving so I just went with a little dulling.  You may want to do a little internet research and check TGR, there might be some other options to experiment with.

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post #39 of 52
5/17/12 at 7:42pm
I talked to Ben before you responded and he said to detune 5cm past the point of contact. However I certainly see the logic of your method as well.
Edited by Surly Bob - 5/17/12 at 7:53pm
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post #40 of 52
5/18/12 at 5:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post

 

i detune all my soft snow skis down to the contact points and then a couple inches further.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surly Bob View Post

I talked to Ben before you responded and he said to detune 5cm past the point of contact. However I certainly see the logic of your method as well.

 

yeah, like I said, I do all soft snow skis like this. It keeps them from getting edgy and they ski smoother. At times you are skiing in trees and there can be small twig branches especially in early season and you don't wan the ski to bit on those if possible. 

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post #41 of 52
5/18/12 at 11:35am
Thread Starter 

Originally Posted by mudfoot View Post

I lightly detuned all the rocker on my Keepers down to the extended contact point when the camber is completely flexed out...

 

Originally Posted by Surly Bob View Post

I talked to Ben before you responded and he said to detune 5cm past the point of contact. However I certainly see the logic of your method as well.

 

 

 

I think the result is virtually the same. However you do it you need to feather the transition from the dulled to sharp sections of edge.

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post #42 of 52
5/18/12 at 12:13pm

yeah, I would agree this is pretty much the same. ^

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post #43 of 52
5/18/12 at 6:42pm
Thread Starter 

This is something I received from Icelantic when I sent them some questions about the Keepers.  They also said the recommended edge bevel is 1 degree on on the bottom and 2 degrees on the side.

 

 

--The 30cm of early rise in the tip includes the tip rise, so that measurement is from the very end/tip of the ski, (same thing for the early rise in the tail).  When flexed, the length of rise changes from 30cm to 36 cm (tip) and 25cm to 29cm(tail).


Edited by mudfoot - 5/18/12 at 6:55pm
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post #44 of 52
5/24/12 at 3:10pm
In other words the length of the ski in effect shortens by 10 cm.

Yesterday I was in a ski shop that carries a wide array of dedicated powder skis. A couple of the skis were actually next years models. I noticed that on skis with early rise rocker, some traditional camber - although perhaps not as much as the Keeper - seems to be becoming more common.

Anyway, the early rise on these skis would also increase as the camber was compressed. In the past skis with an early rise seemed to be quite flat up to the point where the rise on the tips and tails began.
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post #45 of 52
5/24/12 at 4:48pm
Thread Starter 

A full reverse camber ski has no camber, so the length of the tip and tail rocker are always the same no matter what the ski is doing. You cannot compress the bottoms together because they are already touching.  The Keepers have a cambered section, but when you are standing on the ski, regardless of whether it is on hardpack or deep snow, the camber is compressed to flat or reverse, so the "extra" 10 cm of rocker are effectively always in play.  The length of the ski does not shorten.  For practical purposes the length of the Keepers' rocker does not really change.  You just need to make sure you are getting to all of it when you detune them because at that point they have no weight on them and the camber is showing. 

 

Virtually any rocker/early rise ski with camber will increase the length of the rocker when the camber is depressed.  Some skis have true reverse camber (always shaped like a smile), and some have flat camber, while the Keepers have a little camber in the middle.  Some skis with only front rocker like the Atomic Access have camber extending almost to the end of the tails.  Lots of options resulting in varying performance differences.

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post #46 of 52
5/25/12 at 6:43am

Great Job Mud!  Bob, early rise is just a small amount of rocker.

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post #47 of 52
6/18/12 at 9:34am

Thanks for that Mudfoot. The part about depressed camber increasing the rocker on any ski with rocker/early rise  makes sense.

 

Because you have a lot of experience with the Keeper  and we appear to be roughly the same height and weight, I was hoping to pick your brain on where to place the bindings.   I plan on using the Keepers for cat and heli-skiing exclusively.  My buddies and I have been taking an off-piste excursion each year for about 7 years now.   My experience with cat-skiing (and also to some extent with heli) is that while you do get deep powder days reasonably frequently, there is also a considerable number of days when you end up skiing in less than ideal snow - slightly crusted, heavy cement, tracked up, etc. 

 

I purchased the Look Pivot. One of the reasons I bought them was that they look like they won't plug up with powder too easily.  I think you my have mentioned earlier on in this string that you have the same binding on your Keepers.

 

Anyway, any pointers on how far back to mount them?  Or should I just go with the centre line?

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post #48 of 52
6/18/12 at 10:25am
Thread Starter 

SB:

 

Yes, I have the Look Pivots on my Keepers too.  I have no experience with anything but skiing them mounted on the BC (boot center) line.  The other line is marked CC (cord center) and is used as a reference for mounting them with tele bindings.  The other people I know all mounted them on the line. You may want to PM Alpinord. He demoed some rentals in the 178 and 189 before buying a pair and may have some experience in powder with other binding positions.  The bottom line is that I've never heard of anybody complaining about them mounted on the recommended BC.

 

I have a few days on them in deep snow (7"- 30") of varying densities and only had one occasion where I got my weight in front of them and experienced some tip drag.  Nothing fatal, but enough to bother me.  After years in Kryptons I have a bit of a hang on the front of the boot style. Keepers have a long "early rise" in the tips, as opposed to a high "rocker", the later of which makes it almost impossible to bury the tips.  I think the tip rise and flex on the Keepers is a huge part of what makes them such a great funky snow ski, more of a driver than a total floater.  The Keepers are so easy to ski in deep snow that I started to get so relaxed I would get sloppy with my technique, which is probably what let to the tip drag scenario. Like my friend said during our first day on our Keepers in 30" of cold smoke, "our biggest problem is not falling asleep."

 

You can go on TGR and find a little info on Keeper mounting points, but my thinking is that because of the shark nose tip the effective sidecut does not start until fairly far back, so it is a shortened part of the total ski length.  If you combine that with the fact that it is only 18m radius, in some situations it will feel like a short turny ski, so moving the binding forward or back will have a much more profound affect than if you were dealing with a "regular" 189 length ski.  Notwithstanding the foregoing, no one ever describes the Keepers as hooky.  If you are only going to be using them in deep snow (and depending on your body type, foot size and skiing style) I suppose you could mount them back a little, but personally I would not go more than a cm or two, if anything.

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post #49 of 52
6/18/12 at 11:44am

Thanks again MF.

 

Prior to your response, my best guess was that sticking with centre-line would make the most sense but I felt I should have that confirmed.  For what it's worth, I have about a size 12 Head Raptor 130 boot (very well fitted) and (predictably given the boot I use) I tend use a lot of edge without much pivot - although I certainly modify this approach a little when I'm on powder, especially in trees or other situations that are tight. 

 

Not sure whether any of that favours moving the mounting point back a tad.

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post #50 of 52
6/18/12 at 12:04pm

always safe at BC or +1 on almost all icelantics.

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post #51 of 52
6/18/12 at 2:07pm
Thread Starter 

Unless you see some strong evidence to the contrary, I don't see any persuasive reason not to mount them on the line.  Like I said, I have not heard of anyone who really didn't like it there.

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post #52 of 52
6/18/12 at 8:24pm
Thread Starter 

For anyone who cares and didn't find it, here is some TGR info on the Keeper mounting point.

 

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/207130-Icelantic-Keeper-Mounting-Point

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