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Should ski resorts and ski shops drug test their employees? - Page 2

post #31 of 64



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post



Please stop, slow down, catch your breath and actually read what others have written. 

 

Breath tests for alchol, test if you are under the influence, hence they are effective for their intended purpose - ensuring the safety of the public.  Urine and blood tests do not test if you are under the influence, hence they are not effective for their intended purpose - ensuring the safety of the public.

 

 

 


Not exactly. Breath tests do NOT test whether you are "Under the Influence" of Alcohol, they merely test your current "Blood Alcohol Level" - which is related to being Under the Influence but specifically how much BAL it takes to actually be Under the Influence varies GREATLY from person to person. BAL is easy to test though and motor skill degradation isn't, since you don't have a baseline.

 

The current 0.08% Blood Alcohol Level that was politically pushed through under cover of darkness by MADD is Not Under the Influence for many people - though it may be for some people. There is unfortunately NO clear linkage between a specific BAL and UI, because there is so much variability in the population. Remember too that the previous BAL in most areas was 0.15%, and MADD's original founder left the organization she founded after this all happened because she felt they had become fanatical anti-alcohol whack-jobs with an agenda against alcohol rather than an agenda of improving safety.
 

 

post #32 of 64

We should have ignition interlocks on all vehicles that drive on the highway.  Any one of them could cause a multi-car pile-up on the 401, killing a planeload of people! 

 

Wait; that's not enough!  We need drug testing to get driver's licenses out of the hands of addicts.  Everybody with a drivers license please report to your local testing centres next Tuesday.  That should make our roads much safer.  There will be a small fee to cover expenses.  Nobody will mind the intrusion into their privacy and the inconvenience even though they have given nobody any evidence that they have any problem.  Come on, it's for safety!  Aren't you in favour of safety?

 

Hey!  What about gun owners.  You never know.  One of them could be an pot addict about to succumb to reefer madness and go on a shooting spree!.  All registered gun owners, hunting license holder please report to the testing  centre for urine tests on Wednesday.

 

We trust doctors with out lives.  They could be addicts!  They could be high an LSD-like drug (prescribed by one of their drug-addled  colleages) and make a life ending decision!  All doctors please report to the test centres on Thursday.

 

Wait! those guys working behind grills at fast food restaurants may suddenly decide to put rat poison in the special sauce!  All fast food workers please report to the test centre next Friday.

 

Wait! What about those profesional engineers who design our bridges, and buildings.  An engineer on crack might decide to cut the load in half on a bridge with semytrical beams, and the engineer checking it high on Mary Jane might do the same thing.  All engineers please report to the testing centre the following Monday!  (test centre workers need the week end off).

 

What if the test centre workers are high and screw up and we end up letting high pilots fly planes!

 

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!....

 

 

 

 

 

Or we could not harass folks who have given us no cause for suspicion with unnecessary, inconvenient, costly test that don't prove anything about their current state and abilities.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #33 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRISfromRI View Post



 


Not exactly. Breath tests do NOT test whether you are "Under the Influence" of Alcohol, they merely test your current "Blood Alcohol Level" - which is related to being Under the Influence but specifically how much BAL it takes to actually be Under the Influence varies GREATLY from person to person. BAL is easy to test though and motor skill degradation isn't, since you don't have a baseline.

 

The current 0.08% Blood Alcohol Level that was politically pushed through under cover of darkness by MADD is Not Under the Influence for many people - though it may be for some people. There is unfortunately NO clear linkage between a specific BAL and UI, because there is so much variability in the population. Remember too that the previous BAL in most areas was 0.15%, and MADD's original founder left the organization she founded after this all happened because she felt they had become fanatical anti-alcohol whack-jobs with an agenda against alcohol rather than an agenda of improving safety.
 

 



Good point. 

 

What is even worse thou, that 0.08...is actually 0.05 in lots of places now, and even somtimes 0.02 for new drivers.

 

post #34 of 64

CarrieNation2.jpg

Coming to a tuning bench near you!

post #35 of 64

You know for many ski shop and resort work IS a normal job right?

 

It's their business and they can do as they wish but honestly give me 5-7 days notice and I can get around itsmile.gif

 

If they were really serious about being drug free then they would use a hair follicle test, then very few would be hired and the ones that did would be worth much more $$$

 

Working anywhere stoned or drunk is reason for termination IMO.

post #36 of 64

Is it OK to crack the beers when the machines are off and we are scraping skis?

 

I was in high school during the MADDness.

 

We wanted to start DAMM- drunks against mad mothers.

 

I would never work for a firm that drug tests, what I do in my spare time is my business.

 

If you have issues with my job performance so be it, but otherwise butt out of my life.

 

I am both an employee (winter) and employer (summer) and testing has never been a part of

either experience.  It is just a general, often insurance mandated, cop out for HR.  A simple

if grossly broad, invasive, and ineffective technique that attempts to provide "standards" for employees.

 

Too hard to quantify actual performance or judge a person's character I guess.

post #37 of 64


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeUT View Post


Did this make sense when you wrote it? We're talking specifically about a pilot. I already said drug testing is overkill for most jobs at a ski resort.

 


 

Somehow it did. I must have been high at the time. 

 

 

(The reality is that I was sober. Oops.)

post #38 of 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by supergaper View Post
I would never work for a firm that drug tests, what I do in my spare time is my business.

If you have issues with my job performance so be it, but otherwise butt out of my life.

I totally agree. What people do in their free time it's their own thing. If they drink, smoke stuff, or go to church, it's their problem, not employer's problem. As long as this doesn't influence their work, noone has anything to bother about it. But reality is, that more and more companies are doing exactly this. Not with some real and justified reason, but just to show their employees that they own them, and they can get away with anything they want... unfortunately.

And as you wrote... I would never work for company, that would do drug tests. Not that I would have anything to hide, but it's just principle. Today it's drug test, tomorrow it's blood test for god knows what reason, day after tomorrow its... Sorry no go with me.

post #39 of 64

There is a zero tolerance and lifetime ban on a CDL. It keeps drivers from being under the influence (which is a good thing) but all the drug testing does not change the level of competence or personal pride in doing the right way. You can't fix stupid. Now if you had a test for that!biggrin.gif

post #40 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

We should have ignition interlocks on all vehicles that drive on the highway.  Any one of them could cause a multi-car pile-up on the 401, killing a planeload of people! 

 



I'm actually pretty sure I agree with this part of your "don't tread on me" rant.  The rest of it, well who is to say.  However, making it illegal to drink alcohol and drive period is common place in Japan and Brazil, .02% in several European countries.  Please explain why anyone needs to drive after drinking alcohol anyway?  If you can afford to alter your mind you should be able to afford a taxi or other transportation.

 

Car vendors are actually testing a device that analyses the sweat from your palms against the steering wheel and locks a vehicle if alcohol is detected at a certain level.  This part of the Dr Cockteau Demolition Man nanny society isn't really all that far from becoming reality.

 

Vietnam, and parts of Africa have no limit.  Party on there..

post #41 of 64

Hell, I know some ski shops that won't hire you if you don't do drugs...

post #42 of 64

LOL, props to you there.

 

 

High on the drug of LIFE, man!

post #43 of 64

Hmmm.. I work in community mental health, so I see the effects of people whose casual use of a variety of substances, legal or otherwise, end up causing lots of problems for themselves and others.  Loss of work, increase of physical and mental health symptoms, loss of home, family cut off, poverty and complete reliance on public health and social services, which all the rest of us get to pay for. So this is far from a private issue or "what I do on my own time is my own business."  

 

I am emphatically not stating this is the norm, but rather a very real outcome possibility.  Most people do not consider that their private recreational use may become a social services issue.

 

*Side note: I feel the same way about tobacco use.  Yes it's legal, albeit with restrictions these days on where you can smoke.  However, there is no dispute that it leads to lung cancer and emphysema at a much higher rate than non-smokers.  Most people with lung cancer and or COPD will lose their ability to work and therefore no longer have health insurance through their employer, if they had that at all.  Even if they do they will exhaust their lifetime benefits, then they will run out of money and be poor enough to qualify for Medicare and Medicaid and the rest of us wil pay for their very expensive care. 

 

OK, rant over.

 

Personally I do not believe in drug testing for most occupations.  I agree that pre-employment testing for certain professions should be mandatory.  I really don't care if someone's individual right to smoke a bowl on their own time is violated (a right they don't actually have).  Public safety is far more important.

 

BTW, medical marijuana is legal only for certain cases (to help with nasea for chemo patients, for example, but not for pain management or mental health disorders) at least in Washington State.  It's unlikely to impact a hiring decision.

 


Edited by DesiredUsername - 3/28/12 at 2:19pm
post #44 of 64

One has more chance of injuring them self in an impaired state and the employer pays for medical insurance... this could be one reason they want to test.  Even in a ski shop there is machinery to sharpen the ski edges, hot irons for waxing, tools etc.  I don't however agree that an employer should be able to arbitrarily check for substance abuse at any time but I understand their desire to do so.  A person not working may party a little when they're not working and not partake when they have more responsibilities.  I feel their checks should be limited to the same checks they are authorized to do for any possible character traits.  A criminal record check (theft, fraud, impaired driving, violent crimes, etc that may turn up as a reason not to employ someone), reference checks with personal references and former employers (if there was problems or red flags then don't hire), and now they also like to do an internet search on people's emails, names etc for any other red flags.  If you don't find any red flags and the person interviewed well and has the skills you need then hire.  A drug test should be no more allowed then test to provoke someone and see how quickly they anger.

post #45 of 64

 

Quote:

I don't think anyone except for Police and transportation, (drivers/pilots/train subway operators) should be tested.

 

What about the guy (or girl) welding that high pressure gas pipeline that runs through your back yard?

 

What about the guy stitching you up after a bad crash?

 

What about the guy setting the charges in a mine?

 

There are thousands of safety critical jobs that require complete concentration and have a very serious risk of fatality or other huge loss if the person performing them is impaired. In Oil and Gas, many companies have a requirement for a 5 panel test if you are involved in a safety or asset loss incident with immediate dismissal if you fail the test.

 

How would you feel if the Deep Horizon well rupture was a result of a poor decision made by an engineer under the influence of a drug or alcohol?

post #46 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesiredUsername View Post

Most people do not consider that their private recreational use may become a social services issue.

 

Same is more than true of alcohol.

Hmmm, maybe we should ban it.....
 

 

post #47 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skierish View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DesiredUsername View Post

Most people do not consider that their private recreational use may become a social services issue.

 

Same is more than true of alcohol.

Hmmm, maybe we should ban it.....
 

 



Same is true of skiing, see all those hundreds of thousands of people with brain injuries from skiing? 

Maybe we should ban it....

 

 

Heck while we are at lets ban all outdoor activity, and sport.  Lets just lay around on the couch where its safe and listen to our arteries harden...oh wait that is bad too!  My god, I am starting to think that no matter what I do I wont be able come out of life alive!

 

post #48 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post



Same is true of skiing, see all those hundreds of thousands of people with brain injuries from skiing? 

Maybe we should ban it....

 

 

Heck while we are at lets ban all outdoor activity, and sport.  Lets just lay around on the couch where its safe and listen to our arteries harden...oh wait that is bad too!  My god, I am starting to think that no matter what I do I wont be able come out of life alive!

 


Humm.... if the net social gain from skiing (benefits, health, entire local economies, etc) don't outweigh the detriments (less than half the injury rate of bikes and less than a third of the death rates of swimming) than maybe we should.  Next we should see how the net social benefits of drinking and drugs compare to the detriments.  Humm, a glass of red wine has health benefits..  If your life sucks smoking weed or getting drunk helps you not stress about it so much.  Not sure what else we've got there though..

post #49 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post


Humm.... if the net social gain from skiing (benefits, health, entire local economies, etc) don't outweigh the detriments (less than half the injury rate of bikes and less than a third of the death rates of swimming) than maybe we should.  Next we should see how the net social benefits of drinking and drugs compare to the detriments.  Humm, a glass of red wine has health benefits..  If your life sucks smoking weed or getting drunk helps you not stress about it so much.  Not sure what else we've got there though..


There are tons of benefits:

 

For example the drunker I get the less annoying many people seem and the more charming and witty I become!  Alcohol also helps ugly people pick up in bars....the list goes on and on.

 

 

 

Seriously thou, if you just objectivley looked at drug and alcohol on a benefit/consequence basis alcohol would be banned long before many of the drugs that are illegal. Further if you took your cost/beneift approach to sport, I do think many would be banned.  Like football (grid iron)...I mean what benefit does this game possibly have vs the life long injuries it instills, any benefit that football has can be achieved via other less damaging sports.  Not saying we should go down this road, but if you do, then you need to apply the logic across the board, you might just be surprised what falls out.
 

 

post #50 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

Alcohol also helps ugly people pick up in bars....

 

Excellent point!  I'd be in deep, deep trouble without it!

Hmmm, maybe we shouldn't ban it.....
 

 

post #51 of 64

Are there seriously not enough prospective candidates that even if you fire the employees, there is no one else that wants to step up that is capable enough to work in the ski industry?

I thought there was an unemployment issue in the US?

 

I don't think you should be prosecuted or sent up the river for it; but at the same time you shouldn't feel entitled that having illegal drugs is your unalienable right and employers are forced to employ you without asking about it.   If you'd rather have pot over your job, that's your decision, but I think you may want to swallow your ego that you are irreplaceable and there are plenty of other people who are ready to choose the job and work just as good if not better than you while being drug free..  

 

What about all the military vets, or the machinists/factory workers or the entire city of Detroit that we always hear about being hit by unemployment.  Surely ski operations or repair shop is within their capabilities, especially if they are hungry enough to put in the effort

post #52 of 64



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by raytseng View Post

Are there seriously not enough prospective candidates that even if you fire the employees, there is no one else that wants to step up that is capable enough to work in the ski industry?

I thought there was an unemployment issue in the US?

 

I don't think you should be prosecuted or sent up the river for it; but at the same time you shouldn't feel entitled that having illegal drugs is your unalienable right and employers are forced to employ you without asking about it.   If you'd rather have pot over your job, that's your decision, but I think you may want to swallow your ego that you are irreplaceable and there are plenty of other people who are ready to choose the job and work just as good if not better than you while being drug free..  

 

What about all the military vets, or the machinists/factory workers or the entire city of Detroit that we always hear about being hit by unemployment.  Surely ski operations or repair shop is within their capabilities, especially if they are hungry enough to put in the effort



You would think so...but in reality, many ski industry jobs go unfilled.  See, your entire argument is based on a false assumption.  You are assuming you can live in a ski town and make money.  Yes some can.  Most cant.  The cost to live there is so high, and the wages are so low...that usually it is a losing proposition.  Many if not most show up in a ski town with savings...they leave at the end of the season with zip.

 

Just getting a job in a ski town is easy...getting a job that allows you to live reasonable is very difficult.

 

If you showed up with no experience and no savings you would be in serious trouble...worse if you showed up with debt, you would starve...even if you had a typical minimum wage ski town job, it would not likley cover 100% of your living expenses.

 

post #53 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post



 



You would think so...but in reality, many ski industry jobs go unfilled.  See, your entire argument is based on a false assumption.  You are assuming you can live in a ski town and make money.  Yes some can.  Most cant.  The cost to live there is so high, and the wages are so low...that usually it is a losing proposition.  Many if not most show up in a ski town with savings...they leave at the end of the season with zip.

 

Just getting a job in a ski town is easy...getting a job that allows you to live reasonable is very difficult.

 

If you showed up with no experience and no savings you would be in serious trouble...worse if you showed up with debt, you would starve...even if you had a typical minimum wage ski town job, it would not likley cover 100% of your living expenses.

 

 

Hmm, so the industry is dependent each season to tricking a new supply of drug-addled employees who burn through their savings at a negative cash flow, but still are able to fund their recreational drug habit.  I guess we are worse off then I previously thought.

post #54 of 64

"You are assuming you can live in a ski town and make money.  Yes some can.  Most cant.  The cost to live there is so high, and the wages are so low...that usually it is a losing proposition.  Many if not most show up in a ski town with savings...they leave at the end of the season with zip."

 

Talk about assumptions. Ski towns aren't necessarily gold mines, but there are plenty of people that don't leave after one season with their heads low and pockets drooped.

 

post #55 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by raytseng View Post

 

Hmm, so the industry is dependent each season to tricking a new supply of drug-addled employees who burn through their savings at a negative cash flow, but still are able to fund their recreational drug habit.  I guess we are worse off then I previously thought.



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeUT View Post

"You are assuming you can live in a ski town and make money.  Yes some can.  Most cant.  The cost to live there is so high, and the wages are so low...that usually it is a losing proposition.  Many if not most show up in a ski town with savings...they leave at the end of the season with zip."

 

Talk about assumptions. Ski towns aren't necessarily gold mines, but there are plenty of people that don't leave after one season with their heads low and pockets drooped.

 


Not sure what you two are on about.  Never suggested anyone was tricked or drug addicted.  Merely pointed out that finding employees is not as easy as was suggested.  Sure some manage to live in ski towns year round and make it....what could I possibly know about thatrolleyes.gif.  But you obvioulsy have never done it if you think it is easy, and that you can show up with no experience, ie cant get a job elsewhere, and just make money in a ski town.

 

Without question the vast majority of ski town employees are seasonal, and most of those last 1 season or less. 

 

Sure everyone knows this one guy who just showed up and it landed in his lap.  Great.   What I wrote is reality...for most people...

 


As for head low?  Ha! Now I know you have never done it! Most that leave broke, cant wait to come back and do it again! 

 

 

My unedited post below...added some bold as you clearly never read it.

 

Quote:
You would think so...but in reality, many ski industry jobs go unfilled. See, your entire argument is based on a false assumption. You are assuming you can live in a ski town and make money. Yes some can. Most cant. The cost to live there is so high, and the wages are so low...that usually it is a losing proposition. Many if not most show up in a ski town with savings...they leave at the end of the season with zip.

 

Just getting a job in a ski town is easy...getting a job that allows you to live reasonable is very difficult.

 

If you showed up with no experience and no savings you would be in serious trouble...worse if you showed up with debt, you would starve...even if you had a typical minimum wage ski town job, it would not likley cover 100% of your living expenses.

 


 

 

post #56 of 64

More assumptions. Unless you have some research to back up "most" and "many," you're talking out the other end. I really don't think that most people that come to a ski town leave after one season, not in my experience anyway. Yes, I have indeed lived for several seasons in a ski town, came without the foggiest idea of what I was going to do and landed a decent job. I wasn't getting rich, but I had a year-round job that paid well enough to live comfortably. And so did a lot of the people I worked with (who, incidentally, had been there for more than one winter). It's about the person as much as the place. If you come to work minimum wage, ski a season and leave, that's what you'll do. But you can certainly do more than that if you want. 

 

But I guess I don't have the extensive research you do rolleyes.gif

post #57 of 64

Well since you like my assumptions....let me make another.

 

Your experience is limited to the "ski town" you moved to and live in....ahem...SLC????

 

ROTF.gif Nice one. 

post #58 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post


There are tons of benefits:

 

For example the drunker I get the less annoying many people seem and the more charming and witty I become!  Alcohol also helps ugly people pick up in bars....the list goes on and on.

 

 

 

Seriously thou, if you just objectivley looked at drug and alcohol on a benefit/consequence basis alcohol would be banned long before many of the drugs that are illegal. Further if you took your cost/beneift approach to sport, I do think many would be banned.  Like football (grid iron)...I mean what benefit does this game possibly have vs the life long injuries it instills, any benefit that football has can be achieved via other less damaging sports.  Not saying we should go down this road, but if you do, then you need to apply the logic across the board, you might just be surprised what falls out.
 

 


I'm an all or nothing kind of guy.  I'm all for people being able to do whatever they want in th proper environment, home, clubs, etc.  I'm just totally against anyone driving or doing anything else that risks others.  I agree that many people can perform better under the influence of small amounts of pot and other things.  However, once that optimum amount is exceeded the risks increase exponentially.  So, I'd rather not allow those small amounts either on the road.  I'm also in favor of allowing athletes at pro levels to use performance enhancing drugs.  If they want to destroy their bodies for our entertainment then beercheer.gif popcorn.gif

 

post #59 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post


I'm an all or nothing kind of guy.  I'm all for people being able to do whatever they want in th proper environment, home, clubs, etc.  I'm just totally against anyone driving or doing anything else that risks others.  I agree that many people can perform better under the influence of small amounts of pot and other things.  However, once that optimum amount is exceeded the risks increase exponentially.  So, I'd rather not allow those small amounts either on the road.  I'm also in favor of allowing athletes at pro levels to use performance enhancing drugs.  If they want to destroy their bodies for our entertainment then beercheer.gifpopcorn.gif

 


Hard to disagree with any of that...except maybe for the pros using performance enhancing drugs part.  But then, I am in favour of professional female mud wrestlers and their...um "enhancments", so I guess I would be a hypocrite if I didnt support football players basically doing the same thing and taking enhencments to improve their performance also...ski.gif

 

post #60 of 64

Back on topic of stoners in the ski shop.   I  once knew these kids (young men) that worked in a very busy custom cabinet shop  (wink wink nudge nudge).  Very tedious and repetitive tasks using power tools, but since the furniture was all custom they had to pay attention and conceptualize each component when designing, cutting, assembling and finishing.  If they took a few puffs in the morning they turned into  machines, burying their heads in their work and cranking out cabinet after cabinet, table after table without coming up for air.  Probably worked about 40% faster than they did totally sober.  But, if the soup dejore was a lot stronger than usual, or if they did too much somebody usually screwed up something that was usually a simple task.  There are also diminishing returns and increasing harm with age.  It seems that older folks cross that line quicker than they did when they were younger too. In the three years that this person worked in that envirnment two peopleeek.gif lost at least one finger on tablesaws.  Both were over 30.   Most people reach a point/age when they become  toast if they don't cut back when older, say around 30-35.  Example, Chong! 

 

I can visualize a kid in a tech room being able to crank out a stack of skis, all different tunes and mountings quicker if they did just enough to clear their mind and focus.  I can see them mismounting bindings and over grinding bases if they cross that line (pun intended).

 

So, in the back room I guess I'm OK with it.  Just keep the stoners off the sales floor right after their break hahaha..


Edited by crgildart - 3/29/12 at 6:24am
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