or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Après-Ski › Innate Ability? does it exist? Super talented kid
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Innate Ability? does it exist? Super talented kid - Page 3

post #61 of 293
post #62 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post

You just described innate ability... 
 

 



No, I described personal characteristics. The linebackers have certain physical attributes that would cross over well to similar sports like rugby, whereas the QB's have attributes like coordination and fine motor skills that would translate well to technique-related activities like pitching a baseball or swinging a golf club.

 

It's not an innate ability for a particular sport; it's a group of characteristics that work in any similar set of activities. For example, any hall-of-fame linebacker or fullback would have made a very good rugby player if he had grown up playing the sport because the two have so much in common. Any excellent track cyclist would most likely be an excellent speed skater because of the similarities. Good basketball players would probably be good at volleyball. And so on.

 

Each person might have one sport where they excel the most, but there is usually at least one other sport in which they would have been quite good as well.

 

Innate ability is more like the artistic abilities of some musicians. They might not be able to understand complex ideas in math and science or even paint a picture, but boy can they play music.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post


 but I will tell you that your definition of a natural athlete is lacking several components, like coordination,  muscle twitch,  and fearlessness.      



You mean except for the part where I specifically mention coordination, physical abilities (like speed, which involves fast-twitch muscle fibers), and balance? The natural athlete is the one that has all three in abundance.

post #63 of 293

Good Book:

 

Bounce: Mozart, Federer, Picasso, Beckham, and the Science of Success

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bounce-Federer-Picasso-Beckham-Science/dp/0061723754/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1333126022&sr=1-1

 

It's interesting to read how the author developed his Olympic level Ping Pong ability, and other stories like Roger Federer playing a weird old British type of tennis game for the first time - and he isn't any good at it.

 

In line with this discussion, they've changed the title in paperback to:                         [can i count the ways I hate the editor on this site? arrrgh.]

Bounce: The Myth of Talent and the Power of Practice

Bounce: Mozart, Federer, Picasso, Beckham, and the Science of Success

post #64 of 293
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CerebralVortex View Post



No, I described personal characteristics. The linebackers have certain physical attributes that would cross over well to similar sports like rugby, whereas the QB's have attributes like coordination and fine motor skills that would translate well to technique-related activities like pitching a baseball or swinging a golf club.

 

It's not an innate ability for a particular sport; it's a group of characteristics that work in any similar set of activities. For example, any hall-of-fame linebacker or fullback would have made a very good rugby player if he had grown up playing the sport because the two have so much in common. Any excellent track cyclist would most likely be an excellent speed skater because of the similarities. Good basketball players would probably be good at volleyball. And so on.

 

Each person might have one sport where they excel the most, but there is usually at least one other sport in which they would have been quite good as well.

 

Innate ability is more like the artistic abilities of some musicians. They might not be able to understand complex ideas in math and science or even paint a picture, but boy can they play music.
 



You mean except for the part where I specifically mention coordination, physical abilities (like speed, which involves fast-twitch muscle fibers), and balance? The natural athlete is the one that has all three in abundance.


   You mention similar sports, like a Hockey goal tender would probably make a great catcher (same thing).  Or basketball and volleyball (same thing),   Football rugby,  same thing,     But it goes deeper than that,  would a goal tender make a good forward?   Would a reciever make a good quarterback?  NO, and that is innate ability.    

 

Edit,  add,   Physical abilities is a broad term, but okay.   Speed DOES not mean the same as muscle twitch, not at all.    The fastest sprinter on my team has almost no muscle twitch.     She may run fast because she is brutal strong, but muscle twitch is a little different (aka, reflex).    Example, a hockey goalie has great muscle twitch probably the best example, but it doesn't mean he can skate fast...  

point

 

post #65 of 293

If you're talking about the pro level--obviously a lineman won't make a good quarterback etc.  But I suspect most professional athletes were the best athletes at their high schools at just about any sport they tried.  THAT'S innate ability. There are of course exceptions--Charles Barkley and golf comes to mind.

 

post #66 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post

If you're talking about the pro level--obviously a lineman won't make a good quarterback etc.  But I suspect most professional athletes were the best athletes at their high schools at just about any sport they tried.  THAT'S innate ability. There are of course exceptions--Charles Barkley and golf comes to mind.

 



The attention-getting high school and college sports -- basketball, baseball and football --  are often ones that reward the same bundle of traits.  So, Deion Sanders and Allen Iverson could be multi-sport standouts.  However, if you round out the sports collection, those same traits aren't always rewarded.  An extreme example would be people thinking that football players would also do well at marathons, because they are "natural athletes."  For people with exposure to sports, the idea seems obviously wrong that star football players would excel at marathons, but for the general public, who just here the "all-round athlete" idea batted around, it's a common notion.

 

I assure you several U.S. ski racers who've won Olympic medal in the last couple decades would not have excelled at basketball or baseball, because while they are incredible athletes and ski racers, they lack the speed and explosiveness to do well at those sports.  It is not a knock on anyone, it's just that excelling at specialized activities takes specialized things. 

 

It's also why the crosstraining fad doesn't work too well in terms of results.

 

post #67 of 293

I was careful to use the phrase "just about any".  And I don't remember too many folks at my high school running marathons.  Of course there are exceptions, particularly when it comes to pure endurance and strength sports like marathons and weight lifting (which involves more technique than some people realize)--but you miss my point--there is a certain combination of agility, coordination, and quickness that we all recognize when we see it and which translates into success in many different sports at the amateur level.  

 

We also have to consider the fact that euros all throw like girls, because of soccer. (That is they throw like girls threw when I was growing up; girls throw fine these days, but euros don't.) My German friend--climbing partner when I climbed--is a naturally gifted climber and was also a standout distance runner in college, but he couldn't throw a ball to save his life.

post #68 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post

I was careful to use the phrase "just about any".  And I don't remember too many folks at my high school running marathons.  Of course there are exceptions, particularly when it comes to pure endurance and strength sports like marathons and weight lifting (which involves more technique than some people realize)--but you miss my point--there is a certain combination of agility, coordination, and quickness that we all recognize when we see it and which translates into success in many different sports at the amateur level.  

 

We also have to consider the fact that euros all throw like girls, because of soccer. (That is they throw like girls threw when I was growing up; girls throw fine these days, but euros don't.) My German friend--climbing partner when I climbed--is a naturally gifted climber and was also a standout distance runner in college, but he couldn't throw a ball to save his life.



I would bet a lot of American climbers and runners can't throw a ball, either. wink.gif  No, I know what you are saying. But this whole discussion is suffering because some of us are talking about people at the highest level of the sport, and others are talking about some guy in high school who was better than most everyone else. 

post #69 of 293

It is not an individuals fault if they posses innate ability.  It is just sad to see someone, as Trekchick puts it, piss it away.  That is where coaching/mentoring/ a positive figure could be very influential in guiding someone with innate ability in the direction of it becoming a passion/love for that individual.

post #70 of 293

Not only is ability innate, its presence fosters its development.  If someone is good at something or has a greater abundance of a skill, they are more likely to work on improving it.  The feedback mechanism is subconscious.  Physically gifted kids become more physically able.  The less gifted can compensate consciously for that effect, but can't make up the initial deficit, and can't make up for the initial head start, though we can do a lot.

post #71 of 293

I think innate ability/athleticism is what separates everyday ski instructors from WC pros.  They all know the right "technique," but some just execute it better for reasons you cannot teach.  It's just built in their muscles and minds.

post #72 of 293

Exercise physiology folks say there's a lot of innate variation in recovery time, speed the blood can move through arteries, potential to add muscle mass, etc. Anatomists say there's a lot of innate variation in capillary density in muscles, skeletal proportions, etc. So yeah, innate ability probably helps separate elite skiers from good skiers. Then again, lot of studies suggest that what separates winners from elites is psychological and behavioral variables. At that level they're all geniuses of the body...

post #73 of 293
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post

Exercise physiology folks say there's a lot of innate variation in recovery time, speed the blood can move through arteries, potential to add muscle mass, etc. Anatomists say there's a lot of innate variation in capillary density in muscles, skeletal proportions, etc. So yeah, innate ability probably helps separate elite skiers from good skiers. Then again, lot of studies suggest that what separates winners from elites is psychological and behavioral variables. At that level they're all geniuses of the body...


If you are comparing Winners from elites, for sure!   It goes even deeper, how many great quarterbacks never make it in the NFL because they simply cannot perform in front of millions of viewers on Sunday.     I see that time and time again in the young athletes that i coach.  We have some SUPER talented kids that just can't compete in a meet, just can't perform when it counts.   Some learn over time, (which is fun to watch over the years), and some never get it.   On the other hand some kids actually compete better than they workout...  (usually means they are slacking in the gym and we just didn't know it.  rolleyes.gif)

 

post #74 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post

 On the other hand some kids actually compete better than they workout...  (usually means they are slacking in the gym and we just didn't know it.  rolleyes.gif)

 


 

I know quite a few people like this, I wouldn't necessarily call it slacking (well, sometimes it is) -- some just focus better when there is something at stake. This has been a frustration for us ... my son is a goalkeeper, and he is a gamer, but he isn't consistent in practice. He has been diagnosed with ADHD, pretty mild, but I'm sure this has something to do with it. 

post #75 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Not only is ability innate, its presence fosters its development.  If someone is good at something or has a greater abundance of a skill, they are more likely to work on improving it.  The feedback mechanism is subconscious.  Physically gifted kids become more physically able.  The less gifted can compensate consciously for that effect, but can't make up the initial deficit, and can't make up for the initial head start, though we can do a lot.


I have two sons--one a natural athlete (my wife's genes) and one kind of a klutz.  It's the klutz that worked the hardest (swimming and water polo--usually the slowest swimmer in the pool in polo but he did have the innate ability to cheat and get away with it--he could slow anyone down to his speed.) The athlete tried a lot of sports and would initially be very good at them, but when he got to the point where he had to work hard to get better he tended to lose interest.  He did turn into a pretty good skier after 2 years of patrol at Squaw-peer pressure. 

 

 

post #76 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post


   You mention similar sports, like a Hockey goal tender would probably make a great catcher (same thing).  Or basketball and volleyball (same thing),   Football rugby,  same thing,     But it goes deeper than that,  would a goal tender make a good forward?   Would a reciever make a good quarterback?  NO, and that is innate ability.    

 

Edit,  add,   Physical abilities is a broad term, but okay.   Speed DOES not mean the same as muscle twitch, not at all.    The fastest sprinter on my team has almost no muscle twitch.     She may run fast because she is brutal strong, but muscle twitch is a little different (aka, reflex).    Example, a hockey goalie has great muscle twitch probably the best example, but it doesn't mean he can skate fast...  

point

 



Again, we're just going back and forth on the same things.

 

Good goalies don't have an innate ability to play hockey. They have certain physical and mental traits that are useful in tending goal, but those are also useful in in other activities like catching in baseball (probably some others I can't think of at the moment). Receivers and forwards do not have an innate ability to play football or hockey. They have physical and mental traits that are good for those positions, but they also translate well into other activities.

 

Innate ability is like what you find in some painters who can't sing, can't dance, and can't play music; they might not even draw well, like Van Gogh. Or similarly there are musicians who can't paint, sculpt, etc.. These are not people who have traits that translate well in multiple art forms. They are people who have an innate ability for one specific thing. They might be average or even below average at everything else. Extreme examples are autistic people who are virtuosos or can do math like nobody's business.

post #77 of 293

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post

 

We also have to consider the fact that euros all throw like girls, because of soccer. (That is they throw like girls threw when I was growing up; girls throw fine these days, but euros don't.) My German friend--climbing partner when I climbed--is a naturally gifted climber and was also a standout distance runner in college, but he couldn't throw a ball to save his life.


You've obviously never met any European handball players.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQL-26C7h-U&feature=player_detailpage#t=21s

 

post #78 of 293
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CerebralVortex View Post



Again, we're just going back and forth on the same things.

 

Good goalies don't have an innate ability to play hockey. They have certain physical and mental traits that are useful in tending goal, but those are also useful in in other activities like catching in baseball (probably some others I can't think of at the moment). Receivers and forwards do not have an innate ability to play football or hockey. They have physical and mental traits that are good for those positions, but they also translate well into other activities.

 

Innate ability is like what you find in some painters who can't sing, can't dance, and can't play music; they might not even draw well, like Van Gogh. Or similarly there are musicians who can't paint, sculpt, etc.. These are not people who have traits that translate well in multiple art forms. They are people who have an innate ability for one specific thing. They might be average or even below average at everything else. Extreme examples are autistic people who are virtuosos or can do math like nobody's business.

Well okay, but I guess my description of Innate ability would be what I bolded in your post. :) 
 

 

post #79 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by CerebralVortex View Post


 


You've obviously never met any European handball players.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQL-26C7h-U&feature=player_detailpage#t=21s

 


Looks like they're slinging the ball, not really throwing it properly--although they are slinging it pretty fast I admit.  But I wouldn't call that throwing any more than whatever it is cricket players do. I assume you do play cricket.

post #80 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post


Looks like they're slinging the ball, not really throwing it properly--although they are slinging it pretty fast I admit.  But I wouldn't call that throwing any more than whatever it is cricket players do. I assume you do play cricket.


Looks like throwing to me.  Looks like fun too....would like to have a rec league for that in our area.

 

post #81 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by billyymc View Post


Looks like throwing to me.  Looks like fun too....would like to have a rec league for that in our area.

 


Play it with a hardball, flattened baseball bats, and no pads and you have Irish hurling.  Makes hockey look like chess. 

 

post #82 of 293
Here's a fun example of innate ability (musical).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBfEHF_7vxg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
post #83 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post


Looks like they're slinging the ball, not really throwing it properly--although they are slinging it pretty fast I admit.  But I wouldn't call that throwing any more than whatever it is cricket players do. I assume you do play cricket.



Their shooting style has do to the rules and nature of the game. The goals are too small and there are too many defenders for long-range shots with a proper throw, so they have to get closer and jump up or sideways to get a shot past the defenders (having to release the ball before their feet touch inside the arch). But occasionally, when the goalie nabs the ball and picks out a teammate with a long pass on the break, you can see they know how to throw properly.

 

I don't play cricket; I'm American. That said, the bowling style is due to the rules (have to have the arm straight). But, when a fielder grabs the ball and throws it back in, you can tell they know how to throw. They're basically like barehanded baseball players.

 

 

 

post #84 of 293

Yes, innate ability exists. A friend of mine recently took his PSIA L3 exam and outskied his examiner. This individual has never had a formal ski lesson, yet is in the top percentage of ability.

post #85 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post

Well okay, but I guess my description of Innate ability would be what I bolded in your post. :) 
 

 



Originally, I thought of it that way as well, but I gave in to pedantry. See, the definition of innate is "natural, as opposed to acquired from experience." Some people require less experience to learn particular tasks than others, but they still require experience.

 

For example, the girl in the OP didn't just show up to a gym one day and start doing a gymnastic routine out of nowhere. She had to learn the techniques and practice them. Even physical characteristics like balance and coordination have to be worked on; hence, uncoordinated babies who struggle to walk eventually growing into coordinated adults. I'm sure the girl's balance is even better now than it was when she first started gymnastics due to the training.

 

Personally, I always get a bit angry when my brother acts like I was better than him at soccer due to natural ability (even though he's stronger and faster than me). Apparently, he's forgotten about the hundreds of hours I spent practicing with my team, his team, and anywhere else I could kick a ball around.

post #86 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by CerebralVortex View Post



Originally, I thought of it that way as well, but I gave in to pedantry. See, the definition of innate is "natural, as opposed to acquired from experience." Some people require less experience to learn particular tasks than others, but they still require experience.


 

Meh, that's too pedantic ...  Otherwise the only innate abilities would be breathing, eating, sleeping, and peeing.

post #87 of 293
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post


 

Meh, that's too pedantic ...  Otherwise the only innate abilities would be breathing, eating, sleeping, and peeing.

Agreed,  Innate ability would be the kid who picks up techniques or tricks in a couple of attempts as opposed to months or years.    Someone who just gets it, you tell them and they say "like this" and do it perfect.  
 

 

post #88 of 293
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xela View Post

Of course innate ability exists, either by that name or something similar.

 

Imagine trying to argue the opposite: that everybody has exactly the same raw material and that after one week of coaching, each kid would have identical skills--no differences at all.  Pretty boring world, and unlikely.

I think some people actually believe that if anyone works at anything they can master it,  I call that denial.   
 

 

post #89 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post


 

Meh, that's too pedantic ...  Otherwise the only innate abilities would be breathing, eating, sleeping, and peeing.



Walking is a fun one -- have a few knee surgeries or other rehabs, and you realize that, though most of us are pretty well-suited for walking, even as adults you have to pay attention to keeping a normal stride.  For sure toddlers have to practice hard to learn to walk, though they need to the physical/neurological building blocks in place first.

 

CV's soccer practice example is a good one too, though.  I'd go so far as to say at least 25% of the population could play some position in soccer for a good U.S. college program, IF they have the requisite drive towards practice, which virtually no one does. 

 

post #90 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

CV's soccer practice example is a good one too, though.  I'd go so far as to say at least 25% of the population could play some position in soccer for a good U.S. college program, IF they have the requisite drive towards practice, which virtually no one does. 

 


 

That's nucking futs. You don't need extremes in size or strength in soccer, but you can't play for a good college program without speed, which is just as "innate."

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Après-Ski
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Après-Ski › Innate Ability? does it exist? Super talented kid