Innate Ability? does it exist? Super talented kid - Page 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

I believe that at least 50% in innate ability lies in mental attitude and confidence.  Mind over matter is a real phenomenon.  Having great natural balance, speed, and coordination is also a nice gift.  It can fuel the mental attitude and confidence and vice versa, having to guts to try things develops strength and coordination.  However, the two (attitude and physical ability) can influence each other, but are mutually exclusive at the highest level.

I'm with you on the first part, but not sure I get/agree with the last. (Maybe if the context is strictly developmental.) For example, Federer played Nadal, and won, this past weekend. He won because he maintained a confident, positive, ( some would say "GO" ;-), attitude, and that was reflected in his play staying at a high level. He has had a mental block when it comes to Nadal, and although he frequently starts strong typically he loses confidence at some point of the match and his level (physical ability) drops significantly. I would say even at the highest levels attitude and physical ability can be (anfd often are) inextricably intertwined!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skiing-in-Jackson 

One of the coolest things I've ever witnessed was a bunch of soldiers dropping into Corbet's.  Most of these guys had never skied before- ever- they were on rental gear.  The ski schooler was doling on about Corbet's when one non army guy just rolled past and dropped right in.  So this Army Guy looked around for a second and drops into, and lands Corbet's!  No Shit, just sticks it.  Over the course of about thirty seconds, without hesitating, the entire group of eight or so guys dropped right in and every one landed it.  It was the standard gnarly Corbet's entrance.

Maybe they just had a healthy dose of weed, whites and wine. ( They were there for R&R, right? ;-)

Seriously, guys like that are finely tuned machines, deeply in touch with their bodies, and not lacking in confidence or ruled by fear. Maybe more than anyone they embody the GO attitude. Still, it's not like they just bungee'd off a bridge. You said they all stuck the landing. That is mightily impressive!

Waterskiing, like snow skiing is a skill sport. I am an active waterski junior development coach. I have seen some extremely naturally talented kids - they do OK. But the stars who go to the next levels are not naturally talented. They are unnaturally driven.

My sister-in-law is very frustrating to coach. She has the flattest learning curve. But she keeps plugging away and has now scored several national age division records plus National and World medals. Natural talent is not a factor in her success. Drive is everything.

My son is a "natural" flipper. He is was the star of his high school springboard dive team and has a waterski run with enough flips to qualify him onto Open. But when he was learning flips I remember an eleven year old kid who struggled mightily. His flips were ugly and inconsistent. "How can I learn my trampoline backflip?" My answer: "do 100 backfilps off the dock into the water". He took his wintertime ski ride and stayed in his wetsuit. While the rest of took our sets he did backflips off the dock into the cold water. What started as lame splats ended (seriously) 100 flips later with a kid who everyone now calls a natural flipper.

I tried to do 100 backflips off a dock. By 20 attempts, I was spent. My stomach muscles hurt for days. My respect for my son's drive is immense.

Of course as TC noticed, my ability to find skis is innate. I so seldom fall....

Eric

I suppose it's splitting hairs a little, but I think fear often prevents a person from putting into practice what they may actually have the skill or ability to do already.

For example, you could teach a person how to effectively ski steep terrain, and that person may master the strictly technical skills necessary and be able to demonstrate them on very short pitches....say 50-100 vertical feet.  Take them to an identically angled steep slope of 500+ vertical feet, though, and he/she may pass on it.  Requires the same skills they've already mastered, but it appears too intimidating for 'em.

I guess you could find similar examples with trees, nasty crud, etc..... 

As to the original question, I absolutely believe some people have innate ability....for all sorts of different pursuits, be that gymnastics, skiing, or whatever...

Look at child prodigies for various musical instruments....or chess.  I'd say those alone are the essence of innate ability.
 

I had a 2hr. private lesson with a girl of about 8 years this winter. She was from Texas or some other warm place and had never seen snow before, her parents were not skiers, but just wanted to do a winter vacation. After about 5 minutes of magic carpet, I was starting to go wow. I took her up the lift and was like "OK, just follow me". By the time the 2 hrs was over, she was making decent parallel turns on blue trails. The parents didn't even really ask how she did, they were just ready to continue the vacation, go tour the Ben and Jerry's factory or whatever. I told them "I think you may have found her sport".

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdiddy 

Makes you wonder what else is out there, and if she will ever ski again.  

 

Same kid may well be tearing up a skatepark somewhere.

I've never really seen an organized attempt to map which sports place a premium on which physical and neurological traits, but skating, mtb, surfing and skiing all seem pretty closely linked, and to take a slightly different set of skills than, say, tennis, which is different from, say, basketball.   

I was evaluated for soccer ability at around 5-6 yrs old. The coach's son was 1 year younger and had never had any training or instruction, except his dad's genes. He was, and is, miles above in ability. As a matter of fact he plays in a professional league. 

I believe there is such a thing as innate ability and parents should be trying to find their child's. Just not in the overbearing and controlling way that most parents choose to do this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by epic 

I had a 2hr. private lesson with a girl of about 8 years this winter. She was from Texas or some other warm place and had never seen snow before, her parents were not skiers, but just wanted to do a winter vacation. After about 5 minutes of magic carpet, I was starting to go wow. I took her up the lift and was like "OK, just follow me". By the time the 2 hrs was over, she was making decent parallel turns on blue trails. The parents didn't even really ask how she did, they were just ready to continue the vacation, go tour the Ben and Jerry's factory or whatever. I told them "I think you may have found her sport".

Ice skating, kids hockey, and figure skating is actually pretty popular among folks in Texas and other southern areas these days.  It might have been that she already skates.  A couple of years playing hockey certainly made my transition to skiing pretty easy.

When I was in college there was a hockey coach--Joe Horn.  He had been an all-american lacrosse player but my college had a lacrosse coach and needed a hockey coach. Joe got a pair of skates, a stick, and a puck, practiced for 5 days and could outplay anyone on the team.  The most graceful athlete I've ever seen. I took some PE classes from him--soccer, ice skating, and hockey. The thing about Joe was, he didn't care if you were an athlete or not--he gave the same encouragement to everyone.  After a few years  he left college to coach and teach PE to mentally disabled kids at the high school level.

I have my doubts about some of the sports kids play--kids are risking a lifetime of physical disability at an age when they are unable to understand the consequences of what they are doing, and their parents and coaches are too eager to see them win to worry about their safety.  Girls gymnastics may be the worst. The girls peak so early, so the pressure to do the hardest skills at an early age is intense.   I believe a lot of these girls will have serious problems later in life. My wife was a national class gymnast through college and she is paying the price now--neck, back, knees, shoulders. Her orthopedist was astounded when he saw her MRI and how many collapsed vertebrae she has. And the skills girls are doing now are orders of magnitude harder than what she did. (Funny thing about my wife--she is an amazingly graceful athlete--into her forties if we went to a pool with the kids and she started to dive everyone would stop swimming to watch, but she looks awful on skis, can't carve a turn to save her life, has no interest in getting any better--she's burned out on being coached, but she can get down anything by virtue of fantastic balance, and skis like a bat out of hell.) 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skiing-in-Jackson 

The genetic code dictates that some individuals have kinky hair, darker or lighter skin, different bone structures, you name the characteristic and you'll find a genetic trait that makes us all different, or alike.

 

Circa 1992-1993ish:

 

Although I haven't seen them this season, the Green Berets have been coming to JH  for Winter training/R & R for years.  One of the coolest things I've ever witnessed was a bunch of soldiers dropping into Corbet's.  Most of these guys had never skied before- ever- they were on rental gear.  The ski schooler was doling on about Corbet's when one non army guy just rolled past and dropped right in.  So this Army Guy looked around for a second and drops into, and lands Corbet's!  No Shit, just sticks it.  Over the course of about thirty seconds, without hesitating, the entire group of eight or so guys dropped right in and every one landed it.  It was the standard gnarly Corbet's entrance.

 

Literally, some of these guys had never skied before- ever.  They were just strong and adventurous.  Innate ability gentlemen?  I saw it right ↑.  Amazing it was.  Flat out, some people are smarter, better, faster, stronger than others.  And the age at which these traits come to fruition also differs.  Nothing is more fun to see than an older new skier really excel at skiing- discovering their innate abilities.

 

 

Not so amazing considering what it takes to make it through selection and training though.  Jumping into Corbets probably is about as scary as jumping out of an airplane at 30,000 ft. and having to position their bodies to the nth degree or tumble off course.  Most of the hurdle in jumping or dropping something is from fear, and those guys have already had it trained out of them.  

I have no problems taking rollers flat out and going weightless or *gasp* catching air over the top, but cut the top of that same roller off and make it a tabletop, and I won't go near it.

BTW I skied off and on growing up but never got anywhere, but friends put me on a snowboard on a powder day and the light bulb went off.  By the end of that first season of following my instructor friends around trying to keep up, I was able to jump off the Wall at Kirkwood and ride the mogul fields down below.  Admittedly it was maybe a 5 ft cornice at best, but pretty good for a first year beginner.  I was instructing the next season (in my late 20's).  

I have alot of innate ability on a board, but the best thing for me was the push from better riders taking me down slopes they knew I had the skills to do but would've been too scared to do by myself.  My first run down the Wall (on the groomed section) I sideslipped the first 30 ft until about 3 friends yelled at me to turn.  Then I linked a few turns and was fine after that.  I already had the skills, but just needed the push.

I also know a few people that have way more innate ability than me, but they didn't have the advantage of following a bunch of instructors around for an entire season.  The top performers in any sport is usually a perfect storm of talent and work ethic along with having discovered their calling early.  If every inner city kid got a chance to ski or snowboard...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skierish 

 

I suppose it's splitting hairs a little, but I think fear often prevents a person from putting into practice what they may actually have the skill or ability to do already.

 

For example, you could teach a person how to effectively ski steep terrain, and that person may master the strictly technical skills necessary and be able to demonstrate them on very short pitches....say 50-100 vertical feet.  Take them to an identically angled steep slope of 500+ vertical feet, though, and he/she may pass on it.  Requires the same skills they've already mastered, but it appears too intimidating for 'em.

 

This describes my wife perfectly. She has the skills, but fear takes over.  Happens to her in skiing, kayaking, mountain biking. She gets nervous just approaching a "black" run before ever even seeing it -- if you put a "blue" label on it she'd be fine. 

I have one daughter who has a lot of natural athletic ability. Last year she picked up a basketball, and at first she couldn't even reach the rim from the free throw line.  Within a few weeks she was routinely banging down shots from all over the driveway, and at 10 y.o. was beating some athletic 16 y.o. boys at "PIG".  When she picked up a lacrosse stick, she just started catching and throwing - no problem, it seems easy to her. And she's tremendously strong.  I weigh about 225, and she can lift me up and carry me across the kitchen -- she's 11.

But right now she has no drive or passion for any sport. If she gets it, the rest of the kids better watch out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Octavian 

I was evaluated for soccer ability at around 5-6 yrs old. The coach's son was 1 year younger and had never had any training or instruction, except his dad's genes. He was, and is, miles above in ability. As a matter of fact he plays in a professional league. 

I believe there is such a thing as innate ability and parents should be trying to find their child's. Just not in the overbearing and controlling way that most parents choose to do this.

But, is this innate ability or just good coordination in general? That is, if the two of you learned to play tennis, ice hockey, or any other sport at the same time, would he have also turned out to be better than you?

I had an ex-girlfriend who was just plain coordinated. She was a high-level handball player (serious injury kept her from turning pro like her sister), but she was basically good at any sport she tried. For example, although she'd only played a bit of tennis and had no real coaching, I could teach her things in minutes that would take others weeks or months to master. She was also one of the best female skiers I'd ever seen in person. Basically, in anything that involved coordination and technique, she was far above average.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdiddy 

It is a tough sport, but if a kid loves it,,, they love it.    Be like making child bump competition illegal because its going to give them bad knees when they get older.  We all know what the outcome is for many sports and do it because we love it.  

 

I have no problem with adults doing any sport they please--with or without a helmet, airbag, etc. It's different with kids.  They may love it, but they have no way to evaluate the consequences, either short term or long term.  We as adults have an obligation to protect them, and not live vicariously through them.  It's ironic that we abolished child labor in the west, and protest child labor in Asia, yet we allow our children to pursue dangerous and body-damaging sports.  I'm not advocating banning any sport, but I am suggesting that we keep kids' welfare in mind when we supervise their sports.  I don't know enough about gymnastics to suggest how that might be done.  I don't know if there are long term studies following gymnasts for decades after they stop competing--if there aren't there should be.  If the NFL can start to worry about the brain health of it's adult players, certainly we can do so for children. 

My opinion on this subject.  I don't believe anyone has an innate ability of a specific sport, rather some folks are just blessed with an innate abiltiy for sports in general.  These folks seem to have better balance, are stronger and in general are more co-ordinated than most.  That allows them to pick up just about any sport and become proficient in a short time.

As or myself, I don't fit into that group.  Back in grade school, I was always among the last to be picked for any team in any sport. I wasn't overweight but just a scrawny kid.   I couldn't do a pushup or pull up till my senior year of HS when I decided I was going to get myself in shape because I wanted to learn how to ski.  While learning, I took many many falls while taking many many lessons.  It took me longer than most to finally learn how to link turns.  But I was determined.  I continued to work out, got stronger and took more lessons.  It finally clicked with me around my 2-3rd season and I have not looked back.  I just finished my 40th consectutive season and at age 57 ski at a very high level.  Many of the kids in my old HS ski club who kicked my ass on the slopes no longer ski or just ski occasionally but I RIP!!!!

Contrast my story with a young man I just met in Big Sky.  He was about 15 and he got on a chair with me.  By the way he got on and off the chair I had assumed he had been skiing for years.  I chatted with him at the top and found out that the day before was his very first day of skiing.  Obvisously he was naturally gifted as an athlete and would be good in anything he tried. 

However, no matter how gifted you are, if you don't take it seriously and work at it, you will reach the same plataue as everyone else, you will just reach it sooner than most.

Ski on!

Rick G

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vitamin Ski 

And there are the two chess master sisters who hate chess because their dad forced it on them growing up

If you're referring to the three Polgar sisters, I doubt if they hate chess, as all three are still professionals in their 30's and 40's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Polgar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sofia_Polgar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r

Their father trained them extensively in chess as children, as an experiment to show that genius could be created through hard work.  It's fair to say that the experiment was a success.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickg 

My opinion on this subject.  I don't believe anyone has an innate ability of a specific sport, rather some folks are just blessed with an innate abiltiy for sports in general.  These folks seem to have better balance, are stronger and in general are more co-ordinated than most.  That allows them to pick up just about any sport and become proficient in a short time....

 

...However, no matter how gifted you are, if you don't take it seriously and work at it, you will reach the same plataue as everyone else, you will just reach it sooner than most.

 

Ski on!

 

Rick G

Hopefully this doesn't come across as arrogant or bragging.  Please don't take it like that.  I just thought I'd share my experiences because for the most part I agree with Rick.

Personally, I've always had a proclivity toward skill-based activities coupled with a borderline OCD desire to perfect movements.  My first day of skiing as a kid I had my first and ONLY lesson ever and was parallel turning within a few hours.  I soon became obsessed with perfecting my skiing skills.  I would literally ski the same run at our little SE Michigan mole hill, by myself, from bell to bell as often as I could just trying to to get better - still do.  I even got my parents to buy me some rollerblades (back when they were cool) and cones so that I could practice running gates in the summer - I think I saw something about using them to train in the off-season in a ski magazine.  This was all 100% self motivated - I'm an only child and my parents, at the time, were non-skiers.  I actually didn't know anyone else who skied.  I just saw ski racing on the Olympics, thought it looked cool, and my parents were awesome enough to take me, but for many years I skied alone.

After all that practice, I have literally had race coaches/instructors approach me to complement my skiing.  I once had a guy ask if we could ride up together and then ask me how he could learn to ski like me.  When I taught, the guy who ran the ski school (a level III instructor) would use me as the example of proper technique for the rest of the instructors during our clinics.  So I seem to have had some innate ability, but I also worked very hard to develop that ability further.

My wife gets annoyed with me because I'm pretty good at anything I try in pretty short order.  But I think it's because of all the time I spent as a kid practicing all sorts of sports skills.  The same type of obsession with skiing was repeated with soccer, tennis, mtn biking, diving, shooting, and most recently Olympic weightlifting (as an aside, I've observed that there seems to be great carryover between O-lifting and skiing).  I think it's all that base building during my developmental years that helps me to pick things up quickly now.  Although I seem to be good at picking up skills, I admit I am limited athletically by mediocre speed, strength, and endurance .

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdiddy 

Now obviously some athletes find everything easy,

This is the whole point. Some people are just naturally more coordinated and better able to focus on technique than others. So, when it comes to throwing a football, swinging a racket/club, riding a snowboard/pair of skis, or any other skill, they pick it up much more quickly and easily than the average Joe.

That's not to say they could be a pro at any and every sport. After all, size, strength, and speed come into play. But, they would probably be well above average at most things they try.

For example, I saw Michael Jordan picking up a pair of skis in Park City last week. Now, he might not have ever won an Olympic gold even if he'd skied his entire life, but I'd bet you anything he can learn to ski much better than the average guy off the street who started at the same age he did just because of the difference in balance, coordination, and focus.

I agree with pdiddy ... I mean, sure, a pro athlete is going to be better at most physical endeavors than Joe Couch Potato, and there are a few people who seem to have all the strengths. I just think different sports require too broad a range of necessary skills and strengths for even most experts to have innate ability at all of them.  I wouldn't want to watch Michael Jordan try to do a backbend or heck even a cartwheel. I am pretty sure Lance Armstrong  has said he has terrible hand-eye coordination. And surely you've seen Charles Barkley swing a golf club.

Actually -- that reminds me -- I have played tennis with (and watched tennis lessons of) some ex-NBA players, as well as with some ex-Div 1/NFL practice squad type football players,  all of whom were spectacular athletes when it comes to speed and strength (and competitiveness), and pretty good tennis players to boot because of it, but there is a lack of something -- not sure exactly what it is. Tennis looks forced to them, they aren't smooth. They hold a racquet like a cudgel. They definitely don't look natural. They have no "innate ability" for tennis, believe me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by segbrown 

I agree with pdiddy ... I mean, sure, a pro athlete is going to be better at most physical endeavors than Joe Couch Potato, and there are a few people who seem to have all the strengths. I just think different sports require too broad a range of necessary skills and strengths for even most experts to have innate ability at all of them.  I wouldn't want to watch Michael Jordan try to do a backbend or heck even a cartwheel. I am pretty sure Lance Armstrong  has said he has terrible hand-eye coordination. And surely you've seen Charles Barkley swing a golf club.

 

Actually -- that reminds me -- I have played tennis with (and watched tennis lessons of) some ex-NBA players, as well as with some ex-Div 1/NFL practice squad type football players,  all of whom were spectacular athletes when it comes to speed and strength (and competitiveness), and pretty good tennis players to boot because of it, but there is a lack of something -- not sure exactly what it is. Tennis looks forced to them, they aren't smooth. They hold a racquet like a cudgel. They definitely don't look natural. They have no "innate ability" for tennis, believe me.

 

 

You're giving a lot of apples-and-oranges comparisons there. For example, Lance Armstrong has certain physical abilities, but then you're saying he has no coordination. That's apples and oranges. That's like talking about Shaun White's ability to run marathons. Speed, strength, and stamina are completely different from balance and coordination.

If you ever watched Charles Barkley play basketball, you could see his game was not as much about technical skill as it was physical ability and good decision making. Hence, a technical game like golf doesn't suit him as much as a guy like Michael Jordan, who was very much a skill/technique kind of guy (who also happened to have physical ability and good decision making); hence, he's a pretty good golfer.

The tennis example is also similar. If you take a linebacker and compare his tennis ability to a highly skillful QB, the results will be night and day. Linebackers are all about physical abilities combined with good decision making. QB's are more about technical skills (also combined with good decision making), so they are usually far better when it comes to learning games like tennis and golf.

Barkley would have made a better LB than Jordan, but Jordan would have been a better QB. Jordan would be a better skier, but Barkley would probably be a better Olympic wrestler. The girl in the OP would have been a very good figure skater and maybe even freestyle skier/snowboarder because of her balance and physical control, but I wouldn't expect her to be all that great at running a marathon, and she might not be good at tennis or soccer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CerebralVortex 

 

You're giving a lot of apples-and-oranges comparisons there. 

I know, that was the point.  Innate ability includes apples, oranges, pears, bananas ... 

It's True,  Apple trees have the innate ability to produce ....Apples!

Quote:

Originally Posted by segbrown 

I know, that was the point.  Innate ability includes apples, oranges, pears, bananas ... 

I think that's where we're differing then. I don't think there's such a thing as an innate ability for a particular sport. I think there are just basic characteristics like coordination/fine motor control, balance, and athletic abilities (strength, speed, endurance).

So, rather than an innate ability for a sport, there are characteristics that are beneficial within groups of sports. The "natural athlete" who's good at everything is the guy or girl who has all three types. If you combine that with a mind that excels at problem solving, pattern recognition, and creative thinking, you get someone who just blows you away.

"Faster, and Faster, Until the thrill of Speed Overcomes the FEAR of Death"

Hunter S. Thompson

That's why Kids make easy training athletes  (and soldiers)  They have yet to learn to fear pain.

Just doesn't make any sense to me,  but then,  I'm not in the entertainment business, which  sport is.

What one does for personal recreation resides under a different heading.