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Innate Ability? does it exist? Super talented kid - Page 10

post #271 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post

Maybe that is a tactical choice....the opposite of Wozniacki.

Watch her play and make your own judgments on that one.  There are some players where the unforced errors are a tactical choice and a worthwhile tradeoff -- Federer with his forehand being one example.  In Hampton's case they don't that I've seen come from the same types of shots as Federer.  To me, she really is more like a talented 17 year old in terms of experience, and as a talented 17 year old, you expect a few space-outs here and there.

post #272 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Deeg View Post

Two observations that may be contradictory, but interesting nevertheless.

 

1. Chuck Pratt (1939-2000, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Pratt) whom Royal Robbins called "the best climber of our generation," could walk on upright wine bottles spaced a couple of feet apart. In Glen Denny's book, Yosemite in the 60s, a picture of Pratt shows him standing on one foot on the railing at the top of Vernal Falls, juggling with three balls in the air.

 

2. Jimmy Connors' ....

Not really contradictory, at all.  Climbers tend to be good at lots of jackass balance stunts, and are more likely to juggle than your average outdoor user.  They have enforced down time, evenings that not infrequently may lead to empty bottles of wine...etc.  Lots of climbers slackline, too, but it doesn't mean that slacklining helps climbing, or that the types of balance that matter for climbing matter for slacklining, or vice versa.  Lots of climbers smell and have kind of baggy clothes, too, and it doesn't mean that smelling a bit ripe or wearing baggy clothers reflects, or causes, superior generalized balance skills.

post #273 of 295
I've watched her.. She plays like 95% of the WTA. Tries to dictate with groundstrokes from the baseline. When she's on, she's great. When she's not, she hits a ton of ue's.

Her ball toss is too high, too.
post #274 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post

I've watched her.. She plays like 95% of the WTA. Tries to dictate with groundstrokes from the baseline. When she's on, she's great. When she's not, she hits a ton of ue's.

Her ball toss is too high, too.

She also has a good net game, and good touch at the net, and that backhand slice when she hits it well is actually a good weapon for her (she forces opponents to hit slice back) -- she is far from a basher, one reason why she's fun to watch.   She plays more like the 10% of the WTA that doesn't play ball machine tennis.  But, while she has that good net game, she also messes up a lot of key volleys, and overheads, witness her match with Wozniacki. 

 

Agreed that her ball toss is too high.  That will stay with her, whatever else she does, but it hasn't killed Sharapova's career.  As far as outliers, Battistone was always fun with his serve.

post #275 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

She also has a good net game, and good touch at the net, and that backhand slice when she hits it well is actually a good weapon for her (she forces opponents to hit slice back) -- she is far from a basher, one reason why she's fun to watch.   She plays more like the 10% of the WTA that doesn't play ball machine tennis.  But, while she has that good net game, she also messes up a lot of key volleys, and overheads, witness her match with Wozniacki. 

 

Agreed that her ball toss is too high.  That will stay with her, whatever else she does, but it hasn't killed Sharapova's career.  As far as outliers, Battistone was always fun with his serve.

Well, he has some serious hops, but I have to think he wastes so much energy with it. It's a bitch to return, though .... like the serve of Karlovic, but then he doesn't have the penalty of having to run almost 7' around a tennis court... 

 

Thanks for the reminder -- I just took this off of my phone, from a couple of years ago. He beat Jan-Michael Gambill in this final, after taking out Taylor Dent (I think) previously. Obviously Gambill and Dent aren't training and competing anymore, but it still was a little bit surprising to me. I haven't looked at his results for a while .. I think he's most interested in selling those funky racquets now.

 

 

post #276 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post

While watching tennis, I was thinking about Nadal and his come back after injury. 

Why is it that some athletes with similar injuries come back and some don't, seemingly with the same quality medical care, PT and training? 

 

With all of this discussion, what part does nature have to play in mental fortitude, which has a pretty big impact when it comes to "come back"s, not to mention the "go" attitude. ...

 

It seems most players (in tennis at least) are able to return to form after injury, I think most who have made it as professionals have already proven to be resilient and/or stubborn just by virtue of making it this far. Nadal's injury was not a traumatic injury so much as it is a chronic tendinitis in his knee(s?). The best thing to help the pain is to let it rest and heal. There are other modalities, of course -- I know he uses laser treatment, or at least did -- but it isn't a functional thing so much, like a torn ligament or broken arm. His knees will still be the end of him, most likely, but he sure came back from this break (not his first) playing well!  Back injuries don't work out so well, though. I can think of a few players who finally were done in by those.

 

As far as different responses from different athletes .. .depends on a lot, as far as I can tell. Tennis, for instance, is tough, since you are the only player out there. Skiing would be the same. It isn't like you can call in a sub when you are tired, or have teammates pick up some slack. When you lose a little speed or power, that can be all the difference in sports with such small margins. Or, it can be mental. Winning is a habit, and if you lose it during injury and rehab, it can be hard to gain back. Luck is always involved, too.....

 

Sharapova came back from major shoulder surgery to win a Slam. It took her a few years, having to rework her service motion, and the commentators always reminded us that no player had ever returned from such an operation to win a major tournament before, but she finally did. The serve isn't so important in women's tennis as it is in men's, but hers is definitely a weapon for her, so she needed it. 

 

Google Stu Holden or Brian Baker if you want to read some inspiring yet depressing stories about repeated injury.

post #277 of 295

Skiing actually gives lots of injury rehab info.  Diligence in rehabbing an ACL isn't the same thing as practice from a technical perspective, but it's at least a cousin.  While the severity of the injury, including any cartilage issues, etc., also has a big bearing on outcomes, someone being willing to do the rehab and be diligent about it, every day, has a huge impact on whether the knee ends up basically as good as new, or not.  It's very easy to also end up with things like a permanently affected gait.  I'm often amazed at how otherwise responsible people sometimes don't take their rehab seriously.  It would be cool to see whether blowing off rehab on the downside (don't do enough) correlates strongly with having poor practice habits.  Anecdotally I'd say that there may be a strong correlation there. 

post #278 of 295
post #279 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias99 View Post

http://ideas.time.com/2013/08/20/dont-just-practice-over-practice/

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/6/2182.abstract (full paper available for free)

 

Another side to things, perhaps.

 Oh yes. My soccer coach was a firm believer in this, 30 years ago. Don't know if any studies were out then, but he was a Harvard and MIT grad, so ... maybe he just knew. ;-) 

post #280 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post

 Oh yes. My soccer coach was a firm believer in this, 30 years ago. Don't know if any studies were out then, but he was a Harvard and MIT grad, so ... maybe he just knew. ;-) 

Kinda relates to the difference between game speed, and raw foot speed.  Also why crosstraining at the expense of practice that can lead to direct skill acquisition is such a bad trade for people who are not yet truly elite at a skill sport.  For skiers, this could mean thinking that squats will add more to their skiing than an inline skate; for climbers, it would be thinking that campussing has more value than doing bouldering intervals; for tennis, maybe going anywhere near a kettlebell rather than hitting.

post #281 of 295

I think was it boils down to is a good equilibrium.  Especially for park rats, I still don't understand how those lil stunters know where they're going when they're upside down, sideways and 1/2 way through their 3rd rotation.  Boggles my mind.

post #282 of 295

Was talking about gundogs recently with someone in a way that's actually on point, sorry for the pun.  You can teach a german shepherd or beagle to point birds if that's what you want, though there are some things that you can't teach, like long and efficient legs if you want those, or a coat if you want that (tough to turn a beagle into a big-running, as opposed to steadily running, dog).  But, in terms of the pointing birds part, there's no substitute for time on birds.  One reason people make livings (if not rich livings) training bird dogs.

post #283 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

Was talking about gundogs recently with someone in a way that's actually on point, sorry for the pun.  You can teach a german shepherd or beagle to point birds if that's what you want, though there are some things that you can't teach, like long and efficient legs if you want those, or a coat if you want that (tough to turn a beagle into a big-running, as opposed to steadily running, dog).  But, in terms of the pointing birds part, there's no substitute for time on birds.  One reason people make livings (if not rich livings) training bird dogs.

 

Gun dogs a re pretty amazing. I'm always blown away when a dog points a bird it has never seen before. Like a dog raised on chukar and huns that points a woodcock the first time it is exposed to it, but yet does not point every single other bird in the grouse woods.

post #284 of 295

Actually, Rafa's problem is congenital. He was born with a bone in his foot that was formed as cartilage instead of bone. This almost took him out of tennis permanently a few years back, as there has been and is no surgical nor medical cure. Nike& his Dr.'s worked diligently to pad his shoes (by the way it is his left knee), and this change of padding  in his shoes to take the pressure off of the bone, exacerbates his knee problem by changing the displacement of weight and alignment of his knee. Additionally,  being left handed and hitting with a 2 handed back hand put s as much as 1000 lbs. of torque and pressure on that knee on his back hand, which just adds insult to injury!

Quote:ce
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post

 

It seems most players (in tennis at least) are able to return to form after injury, I think most who have made it as professionals have already proven to be resilient and/or stubborn just by virtue of making it this far. Nadal's injury was not a traumatic injury so much as it is a chronic tendinitis in his knee(s?). The best thing to help the pain is to let it rest and heal. There are other modalities, of course -- I know he uses laser treatment, or at least did -- but it isn't a functional thing so much, like a torn ligament or broken arm. His knees will still be the end of him, most likely, but he sure came back from this break (not his first) playing well!  Back injuries don't work out so well, though. I can think of a few players who finally were done in by those.

 

As far as different responses from different athletes .. .depends on a lot, as far as I can tell. Tennis, for instance, is tough, since you are the only player out there. Skiing would be the same. It isn't like you can call in a sub when you are tired, or have teammates pick up some slack. When you lose a little speed or power, that can be all the difference in sports with such small margins. Or, it can be mental. Winning is a habit, and if you lose it during injury and rehab, it can be hard to gain back. Luck is always involved, too.....

 

Sharapova came back from major shoulder surgery to win a Slam. It took her a few years, having to rework her service motion, and the commentators always reminded us that no player had ever returned from such an operation to win a major tournament before, but she finally did. The serve isn't so important in women's tennis as it is in men's, but hers is definitely a weapon for her, so she needed it. 

 

Google Stu Holden or Brian Baker if you want to read some inspiring yet depressing stories about repeated injury.

post #285 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 

Gun dogs a re pretty amazing. I'm always blown away when a dog points a bird it has never seen before. Like a dog raised on chukar and huns that points a woodcock the first time it is exposed to it, but yet does not point every single other bird in the grouse woods.

Yeah, that can feel like catching a little lightning when you see that.

 

That can also be an example of innate ability, because while my experience has been that time on birds is most important, is also true some dogs just have more bird-sense than others.  Personality-wise, it's even funny to see the similarities between driven athletes and fanatic bird dogs, and they both can be not the easiest to live with.

 

Practice-wise, clicker-based shaping exercises can be a fun ski instructor game (and you can see it's not so different from the positive reinforcement a good coach often gives) that can be a close cousin to standard directed practice.  Most highly trained dogs of course get a combination of some type of positive reinforcement along with some sort of negative or punishment for their "practice," but it's tough to get ski instructors to agree to wear an e-collar for a clinic. 

post #286 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

Personality-wise, it's even funny to see the similarities between driven athletes and fanatic bird dogs, and they both can be not the easiest to live with.

 

You are not kidding. I Iike hunting over them, but din't want to live with one. On the other hand, Maine Coons have no innate ability at all.

post #287 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 

You are not kidding. I Iike hunting over them, but din't want to live with one. On the other hand, Maine Coons have no innate ability at all.

Maybe not outside of the litter-box on that last one!  J/k. 

 

There are some cool western down-low variants of Maine Coons.  Those bobcats seem to spread the wealth over time.

post #288 of 295

...and then there's Tillman et. al.

 

post #289 of 295

Any footage of dogs sliding on snow is good footage, but that was great footage. :)

 

This is somewhat related, if a bit long, but also interesting on the ability and shaping front because some of the start of the video shows the dog getting trained, both as a service dog and then to stand on a foamie in water.  It's easier by far to get a dog, or kid, to polish up on things that are inherently rewarding to them (sliding on snow being one example).  A bit to a lot harder to get them to do things that are boring or actively unpleasant.  (retrieving for a greyhound, working on serves in tennis or polishing hand discipline with no immediate payoff for kids).

 

 

On the tennis front, it was painful seeing Jamie Hampton call herself a choker when she bounced out of the US Open this year.  I do hope someone close to her is telling her, Hey, you didn't spend your childhood hitting balls in Fl or CA for 4-5 hours a day, you even lost 2.5 years to injury as well, and so it's natural you'll be a bit inconsistent in some key moments...but you also just got great practice in dealing with those moments.

post #290 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

 

On the tennis front, it was painful seeing Jamie Hampton call herself a choker when she bounced out of the US Open this year.  I do hope someone close to her is telling her, Hey, you didn't spend your childhood hitting balls in Fl or CA for 4-5 hours a day, you even lost 2.5 years to injury as well, and so it's natural you'll be a bit inconsistent in some key moments...but you also just got great practice in dealing with those moments.

 

So, not to bump this thread or anything, but I ran into her -- almost literally-- in the Madewell store in Park Meadows Mall last night. That was weird. She must be in CO due to medical stuff (she had a couple of hip surgeries I think, I bet Steadman or another Vail surgeon). You don't typically run into pro tennis players in Denver, though. (Although Alexa Glatch was training here a couple years ago, not sure if still here.)  ANyway, I remembered discussion of her on epic, which was also a bit weird.

 

(And no I didn't speak to her, but I did buy a really cute shirt.)

post #291 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

 

On the tennis front, it was painful seeing Jamie Hampton call herself a choker when she bounced out of the US Open this year.  I do hope someone close to her is telling her, Hey, you didn't spend your childhood hitting balls in Fl or CA for 4-5 hours a day, you even lost 2.5 years to injury as well, and so it's natural you'll be a bit inconsistent in some key moments...but you also just got great practice in dealing with those moments.

 

So, not to bump this thread or anything, but I ran into her -- almost literally-- in the Madewell store in Park Meadows Mall last night. That was weird. She must be in CO due to medical stuff (she had a couple of hip surgeries I think, I bet Steadman or another Vail surgeon). You don't typically run into pro tennis players in Denver, though. (Although Alexa Glatch was training here a couple years ago, not sure if still here.)  ANyway, I remembered discussion of her on epic, which was also a bit weird.

 

(And no I didn't speak to her, but I did buy a really cute shirt.)

 

Well, at least your priorities are in their proper place.  ;)

post #292 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post

(she had a couple of hip surgeries I think, I bet Steadman or another Vail surgeon).



And apparently she actually likes Vail, too.
post #293 of 295

Maybe too much thread drift to be relevant, but my cousin's daughter picked up skiing really quickly the first time she saw snow just over 2 years ago and is now ripping on a wake board (don't know how much practice she has put in).  Very coachable, maybe because she is used to taking tennis lessons 2-3 times a week.

 

 

First week skiing at age 6 with me at LL

 

post #294 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post
 

 

So, not to bump this thread or anything, but I ran into her -- almost literally-- in the Madewell store in Park Meadows Mall last night. That was weird. She must be in CO due to medical stuff (she had a couple of hip surgeries I think, I bet Steadman or another Vail surgeon). You don't typically run into pro tennis players in Denver, though. (Although Alexa Glatch was training here a couple years ago, not sure if still here.)  ANyway, I remembered discussion of her on epic, which was also a bit weird.

 

(And no I didn't speak to her, but I did buy a really cute shirt.)


She seems to be getting back into shape now.  She's a rare case where I think, hips permitting, some sprint work and some upper body-directed power work along with very strict diet, paired with going to looser and different strings and really focusing on hitting men-style spin, could lift her game, her intractable lifetime experience deficit notwithstanding. 

post #295 of 295

Of course it does. The concept just went out of fashion in the late forties and early fifties. Since at least the 1960's there has been a complete reversal in popular thinking, not scientific reasoning, that nurture, rather than nature, was responsible for most of our talents and abilities. If you look at the number of NHL players who are descendants of former players, especially sons of former players, you will notice a rather striking similarity in surnames.  It isn't a coincidence and it isn't that these players get "better coaching" and "more ice time.";Millions of dollars are staked on the predictive character of race horse breeding based on natural ability. Entire breeds of dogs now exist because of the same principle. Some people are born with more talent than others and for some reason this fact makes some people incredibly hostile.  

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