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Long skis, short skis, wide skis, narrow skis. Why is one one faster than another?

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 

There has been a lot of debate here about what is the right ski length for GS racing.

 

I see racers on anywhere from a 170 to 195 cm on my local night league and all do well.

 

A long ski is generally thought to be faster than a short ski, a narrow ski is faster than a wide ski.


Is there any psychics to back this all up? Or are the rules from FIS driving the progresson of race skis sizes? 

 

Just trying to dial in my next race ski purchase.

post #2 of 15

Also see what I said in this thread:

 

http://www.epicski.com/t/111959/back-to-basics

post #3 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Dog View Post

Is there any psychics to back this all up?

 

 



Yep, that's where a lot of the difference is. roflmao.gif

post #4 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Dog View Post

Is there any psychics to back this all up? Or are the rules from FIS driving the progresson of race skis sizes? 

 

Just trying to dial in my next race ski purchase.



As always with ski selection, you really need a crystal ball........smile.gif


Edited by ScotsSkier - 4/16/12 at 10:17am
post #5 of 15

Read the 35m GS ski thread.

post #6 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

Read the 35m GS ski thread.


^^ I'd rather stick my head in a microwave while I chew on tinfoil.^^

 

"Night League" means you can ski whatever you like, FIS rules do not apply, you'll ski fastest on a ski you are comfortable on and used to, chances are you'll have more fun and be more willing to free ski on a 'cheater' ski like the Nordica GSR Evo than on a true GS ski... but at the end of the day your ski choice isn't going to radically change where you place. It's fun to think a 'better' ski will help us out-pace our competition, but it just doesn't make much difference at all. I'll bet most beer league/ night league/ NASTAR skiers who own a dedicated race stock ski that only gets used for 'racing' would perform better if they just gave their everyday ski a really good tune. It's hard to stay aggressive if you aren't confident, it's hard to be confident if you aren't comfortable.

 

post #7 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post


^^ I'd rather stick my head in a microwave while I chew on tinfoil.^^

 

"Night League" means you can ski whatever you like, FIS rules do not apply, you'll ski fastest on a ski you are comfortable on and used to, chances are you'll have more fun and be more willing to free ski on a 'cheater' ski like the Nordica GSR Evo than on a true GS ski... but at the end of the day your ski choice isn't going to radically change where you place. It's fun to think a 'better' ski will help us out-pace our competition, but it just doesn't make much difference at all. I'll bet most beer league/ night league/ NASTAR skiers who own a dedicated race stock ski that only gets used for 'racing' would perform better if they just gave their everyday ski a really good tune. It's hard to stay aggressive if you aren't confident, it's hard to be confident if you aren't comfortable.

 


Didn't say get involved. duck.gif The discussion and impact of ski ski, length, width was actually very well discribed you just have to get past the frustration in the thread.

 

In short the long ski and longer radius are faster, but the shorter skis/radius are more comfortable.  Question is how uncomfortable are you willing to be th_dunno-1[1].gif  I believe it was Skiracer55 that made that excellant observation in the thread.

 

I personally ski a GS FIS legal ski (mind you on the short side and therefore not legal for me) as my everyday ski.  Love it.  Can you say CHEAT biggrin.gif. Little older, not enough days on the slopes, take any advantage I can get without giving up performance (noticable).

 

Best advice try some skis (friends skis if available and they let you), give you a good base line what to look for.

 

 


 

 

post #8 of 15

Well said, and it's not necessary to chew tinfoil, inside a microwave or not. I *think* the thread that OldSchool was referring to is the URL I provided in post #2 of this thread...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post


^^ I'd rather stick my head in a microwave while I chew on tinfoil.^^

 

"Night League" means you can ski whatever you like, FIS rules do not apply, you'll ski fastest on a ski you are comfortable on and used to, chances are you'll have more fun and be more willing to free ski on a 'cheater' ski like the Nordica GSR Evo than on a true GS ski... but at the end of the day your ski choice isn't going to radically change where you place. It's fun to think a 'better' ski will help us out-pace our competition, but it just doesn't make much difference at all. I'll bet most beer league/ night league/ NASTAR skiers who own a dedicated race stock ski that only gets used for 'racing' would perform better if they just gave their everyday ski a really good tune. It's hard to stay aggressive if you aren't confident, it's hard to be confident if you aren't comfortable.

 



 

post #9 of 15

Long/short and narrow/wide leaves out two very important aspects of the ski, the turn radius and the build. For club racing I reccomend a ski with a turn radius of 17-21m. For such a ski I would go as long as they come. The length makes the ski more stable. Still, a true womens FIS ski will be quicker if the course allows for bending the ski into cleanly carved arcs and if the snow is hard. The harder and icier it is the better the FIS ski. The main reason why you should get true FIS racing skis is that if you race at national level you might as well ski as much as possible on your racing skis. And its a lot of fun. And cheaters skis feel soft and whimpy compared. Howevr, Im not going to switch to the new GS skis for 2013. My style is carving as cleanly as possible and I dont see that happeing with the new skis. So Im sticking to R24m and R27m skis for the time being. At our National level Masters events we can still use the old mens/womens FIS skis Ive heared. Also, old model or used racing skis can be bought cheap. I just bought a brand new 2009 model Head 191 R27 for 100 bucks. Wasent any good but testing it was worth the money. Maye it was a tuning issue or a binding thing...

 

The most popular GS ski at our Masters events are womens 182/3 FIS skis.

 

 

 

post #10 of 15

Right, which is pretty much what I say in the thread referenced in post #2....

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Long/short and narrow/wide leaves out two very important aspects of the ski, the turn radius and the build. For club racing I reccomend a ski with a turn radius of 17-21m. For such a ski I would go as long as they come. The length makes the ski more stable. Still, a true womens FIS ski will be quicker if the course allows for bending the ski into cleanly carved arcs and if the snow is hard. The harder and icier it is the better the FIS ski. The main reason why you should get true FIS racing skis is that if you race at national level you might as well ski as much as possible on your racing skis. And its a lot of fun. And cheaters skis feel soft and whimpy compared. Howevr, Im not going to switch to the new GS skis for 2013. My style is carving as cleanly as possible and I dont see that happeing with the new skis. So Im sticking to R24m and R27m skis for the time being. At our National level Masters events we can still use the old mens/womens FIS skis Ive heared. Also, old model or used racing skis can be bought cheap. I just bought a brand new 2009 model Head 191 R27 for 100 bucks. Wasent any good but testing it was worth the money. Maye it was a tuning issue or a binding thing...

 

The most popular GS ski at our Masters events are womens 182/3 FIS skis.

 

 

 



 

post #11 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Long/short and narrow/wide leaves out two very important aspects of the ski, the turn radius and the build. For club racing I reccomend a ski with a turn radius of 17-21m. For such a ski I would go as long as they come. The length makes the ski more stable. Still, a true womens FIS ski will be quicker if the course allows for bending the ski into cleanly carved arcs and if the snow is hard. The harder and icier it is the better the FIS ski. The main reason why you should get true FIS racing skis is that if you race at national level you might as well ski as much as possible on your racing skis. And its a lot of fun. And cheaters skis feel soft and whimpy compared. Howevr, Im not going to switch to the new GS skis for 2013. My style is carving as cleanly as possible and I dont see that happeing with the new skis. So Im sticking to R24m and R27m skis for the time being. At our National level Masters events we can still use the old mens/womens FIS skis Ive heared. Also, old model or used racing skis can be bought cheap. I just bought a brand new 2009 model Head 191 R27 for 100 bucks. Wasent any good but testing it was worth the money. Maye it was a tuning issue or a binding thing...

 

The most popular GS ski at our Masters events are womens 182/3 FIS skis.

 

 

 

 

To me that is the crux of it!. The real race ski just gives you a much better platform to work from and you are much better off on a womens 183, 23m than a longer cheater.  BTW, this season I have also found that the 27m ski (certainly in the Fischer) works even better for me than the 23m womens.  Just seems to have more "beef" to it and no significant difference in the ease of initiation.  I suspect at 183 most women's skis are getting closer to 27m anyway.  I know my 182 blizzard shows >25m
 

 

post #12 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 View Post

Right, which is pretty much what I say in the thread referenced in post #2....

 



Sorry but it was only a link to a thread with a masked document down load... hmmm, have to admit I did not find it or read it redface.gif. Anyway, now I did and indeed I pritty much repeted everything you wrote. Except you said it all. Turns out we are pritty similair since we are using our SL skis a lot. IMO an important issue is "get to know your stuff". I figured that if I mainly ski SL I might as well use my SL skis as much as possible. In all kind of terrain and conditions. Then I would be more confident on them once on the race track. Same rule applies to GS skis or why not SG and DH. Thanks for the article. I enjoyed it. And I think that its important to understand how a ski racer thinks: he thinks in terms of ski racing. That said, there are some pow skiers that are much better than many racers on a race course but race skiers are race skiers. We use racing suits and fluor wax because everything counts. At all levels. Even if we are only racing against ourself.

 

post #13 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post

 

To me that is the crux of it!. The real race ski just gives you a much better platform to work from and you are much better off on a womens 183, 23m than a longer cheater.  BTW, this season I have also found that the 27m ski (certainly in the Fischer) works even better for me than the 23m womens.  Just seems to have more "beef" to it and no significant difference in the ease of initiation.  I suspect at 183 most women's skis are getting closer to 27m anyway.  I know my 182 blizzard shows >25m
 

 


I have been on a 2010 Blizzard 182 womens FIS GS ski for a couple of years and its been quite ok for me. However, now Im switching to a mens Völkl 188 GS ski after testing it at a couple of camps and events this winter. Turned out it was a bit harder to get turning but there was no course except one where the longer 27m ski did not work at all. Usually there were sections where the longer radius ski carved nicely. I enjoyed the extra length. I think the optimum ski for me would be a 190 long womens ski. They are made for sure but only for the athletes on the WC. I mean, they have like 40 pairs of skis. Or at least they test all kinds. On club events where I took silver this year I used the shorter Blizzards but even there I could have pulled off using the longer ski, if not for a good result then just for the heck of it. So I agree with your above quoting perfectly.

 

The moral of the story I think is that you cannot have one pair of GS skis for all events and conditions if you dont race specifically home town 30 sec club races. You need a longer and a shorter pair.

 

Here is some information I think most of us dont want to read. Good skiers go faster and project their CoM further into the turn. These two go hand in hand. They feed on each other. And as they project their bodys further into the turn they also tip their skis more on edge. That means they turn tighter. Its a critical equation. And it all boils down to what you can read about in Skiracer55s great article.
 

 

post #14 of 15

Skiracer55 - if you look at my GPS tracks you can see that I managed to carve all turns once up to speed. So a shorter and turnier ski would have been unuseful. Many used womens SG skis and even womens GS skis. You really cannot beat the feel of a SG ski. But you already knew that....

post #15 of 15

 Is this your GPS thread?  Let me go check it out. I'm like you, I have a full stable of Big Skis, all Atomic. I use a 201 SG for turny SGs, such as the SGs at Vail.  I use a 205 SG for more open SGs, such as the SGs at Ski Cooper.  I use a 210 SG for the Masters DHs at Ski Cooper, although there are guys who use up to a 217 there. I just like it that I can finesse a turn a little easier on a 210, and I don't think I'm giving up much in terms of glide...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Skiracer55 - if you look at my GPS tracks you can see that I managed to carve all turns once up to speed. So a shorter and turnier ski would have been unuseful. Many used womens SG skis and even womens GS skis. You really cannot beat the feel of a SG ski. But you already knew that....

 

 

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